Measles Vaccinations: Gaps in the Herd Immunity.

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Saturnine Pariah, Oct 9, 2015.

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  1. milkweed

    milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Speaking of dishonest and disingenuous statements. No where does MR or myself indicate anti-vax positions.

    Various Quotes follow:
    "We know from statistics that about half of cases of whooping cough in young children are caught from the parents.

    "So it is best practice to give women whooping cough vaccinations, ideally during the pregnancy or immediately after delivery.

    Department of Health spokesman Gary Dowse said whooping cough was still common in the community.

    "It occurs in all age groups and hence little babies can catch it from their parents, from their grandparents, from their siblings," he said.

    "We don't know how this child caught it.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-18/baby-dies-of-whooping-cough-in-perth/6329244

    From 1996:
    Recent studies indicate that neither immunization nor infection give long-term immunity. As a result, B. pertussis infections are endemic in adult populations. The future control of B. pertussis will require immunization schedules with new acellular vaccines that include booster doses in older children and adults.

    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/174/Supplement_3/S259.full.pdf

    Women in their last trimester of pregnancy are recommended to receive a pertussis-containing vaccine if there has been an interval of five years or more since a previous dose and the expected date of delivery.

    http://www.health.vic.gov.au/chiefh...isory-2015-01-increase-in-pertussis-cases.htm

    The reasons for this are thought to include waning vaccine-induced immunity; better awareness of the disease; increased testing, including greater availability of more sensitive PCR diagnostic tests; improved reporting and surveillance; and changes in the organism itself. It is also thought that acellular pertussis vaccine, introduced in Australia in 1999, may not confer as long-lasting immunity as that provided by the whole cell vaccines used previously.

    http://www.health.wa.gov.au/disease...g_pertussis_epidemic_in_Western_Australia.cfm

    Point being YOU have no idea where this child picked up whooping cough from.
     
    milkweed, Oct 12, 2015
    #21

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  3. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    You don't know that he caught whooping cough from an anti-vaxxer. A large number of the unvaccinated don't respond to it. Others simply haven't gotten around to it. This need to call antivaxxers murderers says more about you than it does about them.
     
    Magical Realist, Oct 12, 2015
    #22

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  5. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    In this case, it's not racial, it's just idiots who refuse to vaccinate. And yes, they are a hated class.
     
    spidergoat, Oct 12, 2015
    #23

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  7. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Or Jewish idiots who refuse to be Christians. Or gay idiots who refuse to be straight. Or Mexican idiots who refuse to stay on their side of the border. Idiotfying is part of the blame process here.
     
    Magical Realist, Oct 13, 2015
    #24
  8. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    If you aren't vaccinating and risk everyone else's life, then shame on you, I don't care what religion or ethnicity you are.
     
    spidergoat, Oct 13, 2015
    #25
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  9. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    They're just trying to protect their children from what they believe to be the adverse effects of vaccines. Though we may not agree with them, it hardly justifies imputing murderous motives to them.
     
    Magical Realist, Oct 13, 2015
    #26
  10. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Which she had. She had had a booster. It was not caught from his parents.

    The point is that had others been vaccinated, he would more than likely not have contracted it. The fact that people refuse to vaccinate, decreasing herd immunity in the community, means that children like Riley become at risk.

    Do you understand now?

    This is something that was nearly eradicated from society. But because people are now refusing to vaccinate, it is making a comeback and those most at risk and who would otherwise have been protected through herd immunity are now falling prey to the diseases that they should have been protected from if people were not selfish.

    It is because of selfish anti-vaxxers that herd immunity is unable to be maintained, ensuring the protection against such diseases.

    And you failed to answer my questions in the previous post. Are you also advocating against a HIV vaccine, along with TB vaccine, leprosy vaccine and plague vaccine because you consider it to be ineffective?

    Consider that HIV has killed millions around the world and continues to infect up to 50,000 people each year in the US alone:

    Incidence is the number of new HIV infections that occur during a given year. CDC estimates that approximately 50,000 people in the United States are newly infected with HIV each year. In 2010 (the most recent year that data are available), there were an estimated 47,500 new HIV infections.a Nearly two thirds of these new infections occurred in gay and bisexual men. Black/African American men and women were also highly affected and were estimated to have an HIV incidence rate that was almost 8 times as high as the incidence rate among whites. ​

    Would you also poo poo on a HIV vaccine if one became available to the general public as you have been touting your anti-vaxxer stance on this forum.
     
    Bells, Oct 13, 2015
    #27
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  11. Magical Realist

    Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    If there were an HIV vaccine, and it had studies showing adverse affects, and then as a result a segment of the population who didn't get it, no I wouldn't attack those people as murderers. I'd respect their right to decide what they put in their own bodies. Not everybody is an unquestioning supporter of whatever Big Pharma and the CDC promulgate.
     
    Magical Realist, Oct 13, 2015
    #28
  12. milkweed

    milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    ...
    from your link:

    ~~ The Western Australia Health Department says it does not know how Riley contracted the respiratory disease.

    Does Not Know.

    Mom says she was boostered. Mom says she breastfed. These are the methods used to protect children that young, moms immunities.

    It could be moms immunity didnt stick and she wasnt passing on the immunity to the child or someone who was vaccinated didnt develop the antibodies. Could be that the reality of immunization programs isnt as good as you've been lead to believe.

    It is possible that this particular child had immune system issues beyond whooping cough and was infected in the hospital he was born in.

    But I am not going to point my finger at anti-vaxers because one baby out of approx 1million born in australia since the last baby death from whooping cough. You have other issues clearly going on down under, including a vaccine that is not carrying through with its promised benefit. It is more likely the kid was exposed to one of the true believers in vaccines than it was picked up from someone who consciously avoided immunization. After all, if I've been vaccinated from whooping cough and truely believe it works, when I get a lingering cough, I am not going to think 'whooping cough'. Just like this doctor:

    "She said he had a slight cough on Wednesday 11th March, but the doctor thought he was fine when called to the house. Two days later the family took him to the Princess Margaret Hospital."

    http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/whooping-cough-baby-wa/

    And thats the real public health problem. Hope its not a Tuskegee experiment off yonder in western australia...
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2015
    milkweed, Oct 13, 2015
    #29
  13. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    More like manslaughter then. And the adverse effects of vaccines are studied pretty well. Their ignorance is not much of an excuse.
     
    spidergoat, Oct 13, 2015
    #30
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  14. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Herd immunity is supposed to protect the vulnerable, like newborns. You do get some protection from breastfeeding, but that can become almost useless in a society where herd immunity is no longer viable due to lack of others being immunised.

    In the US, for example:

    From 2000 through 2014, there were 277 deaths from whooping cough reported in the United States. Almost all of the deaths (241 of the 277) were babies younger than 3 months of age, who are too young to be protected against whooping cough by getting the shots.​

    Prior to the vaccine, more than 8,000 died each year in the US alone. Because less people are now being vaccinated, the number of incidents of whooping cough is rising. Which means that herd immunity has broken down due to people not vaccinating.

    Look at measles as a prime example. The disease was on the cusp of being eradicated in the US. It is now back with constant outbreaks in the US because people are not vaccinating and as a result, herd immunity fails.

    The time for pointing fingers at the people risking the lives of others in society because they are so selfish as to refuse to vaccinate their children is over. It is now time they shoulder the blame for endangering the lives of others, as well as that of their children.

    It is because of attitudes like this that Australia has implemented laws that state that if your child is not vaccinated, then tax benefits parents and carers get go out the window. The only waiver that exists here now is if the child has a medical reason to not vaccinate.. Everyone else needs to be vaccinated to protect those children and the vulnerable children for whom vaccines are not an option. At this point, the WHO is advising people to vaccinate because lack of vaccination in some countries could see polio reemerge in developed countries.

    We can be thankful the retards who refuse to vaccinate their children were not around when the small pox eradication initiative was in full swing. Otherwise we would still be seeing that as well.
    Your son is also genetically unable to survive a car accident if he isn't wearing a seat belt. It's why you take a preventative measure and make him wear a seat belt. If you are going to argue for "natural causes", then I would suggest you cease and desist using seat belts or using pedestrian crossings.. The same applies for vaccines. Look at it this way, drink driving laws exist to protect others on the road. The same goes for speeding. Our role as members of society is to not endanger the lives of others by drink driving or speeding. Now apply that rule to vaccines. Or more to the point, anti-vaxxers should apply that rule.
     
    Bells, Oct 13, 2015
    #31
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  15. milkweed

    milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    By ignoring the previous links to indications the current vaccine is not effective, you deprive the people you claim concern for.

    I will give you more information:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-21/whooping-cough-strain-27breaking-through-vaccines27/3902762

    Do some exploration. This has been being noted since at least 1996. Viri evolve. Australia has a very high immunization rate. Herd immunity should be working, well in theory...

    Immunization rates DPT Australia last 20 years + 90%
    https://www.quandl.com/data/WORLDBA...mmunization-DPT-of-children-ages-12-23-months

    Outbreaks:
    http://www.health.wa.gov.au/disease...g_pertussis_epidemic_in_Western_Australia.cfm

    Additionally, its one baby died out of approx a million born in that 4 year time period.

    Doesnt matter what draconian measures are taken against people if the vaccine is failing because of mutation.

    you have exactly zero evidence the death of this baby is because of someones lack of vaccination.
     
    milkweed, Oct 13, 2015
    #32
  16. spidergoat

    spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    We only have statistical evidence that makes it likely. If this death is correlated with a group of people who lack immunity, then suddenly it becomes much, much more likely.
     
    spidergoat, Oct 13, 2015
    #33
  17. milkweed

    milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    1,654
    No you dont.

    The reasons for this are thought to include:
    1. waning vaccine-induced immunity;
    2. better awareness of the disease;
    3. increased testing, including greater availability of more sensitive PCR diagnostic tests;
    4. improved reporting and surveillance; and
    5. changes in the organism itself.
    6. It is also thought that acellular pertussis vaccine, introduced in Australia in 1999, may not confer as long-lasting immunity as that provided by the whole cell vaccines used previously.

    http://www.health.wa.gov.au/disease...g_pertussis_epidemic_in_Western_Australia.cfm

    Now I know you have been Lead to Believe vaccines are remarkably effective. But they are not. Dont believe me? How about PBS newshour from Aug 2012:



    1:30 - But it (vaccine) caused so many bad side effects.... Seeing Whooping cough in adolescents... DTAP after 5 years 70% immunity (with a 5 shot regime).

    And the sad part at 2:40. Mom gets it late in pregnancy (mid 2011) and gave it to her baby. Was she advised to get the booster by her doctor during the pregnacy? I dont know. But she says she had a booster somewhere around 5 years before. Only 5 years before.

    4:45 - Older vaccines wore off years ago. Adults carrying it get a mild case (overlooked by doctors for years and years?? due to complacency regarding drug manufacture test results?) see above australia link.

    You do people no favors clinging to its all the anti-vax movements fault.

    Interesting video here too. Supposedly edited out of a pbs documentary called The Health Century. Is this true? I dont know, the link to the cdc regarding this did not work.



    Now I dont agree with much this video presents. But the part of the above video that really sticks out is his reflection on, 8:34 - 9:24 -- 'its a scientific affair within the scientific community'.

    No, its not. Once they take it out of the labs and suggest/demand policies and laws be changed to ensure that everyone be injected with their serum, it becomes an individual rights issue. And I get to question their results and I get to access the data and I get the right to decline participation in the newest gadgets.

    SV40 is an interesting read. Its also interesting to read the discussions about how to get rid of 40 bad things and keep the good thing you want... when all of these things are really tiny. And then wonder about prions, which are even smaller than viri.... much smaller and very new to our limited understanding.
     
    milkweed, Oct 16, 2015
    #34
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