The Ideal of the Noble Scientist

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Magical Realist, May 29, 2015.

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  1. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    ...ergo, there is no need to pay heed to anything other than what you KNOW...
     
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  3. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Here again we see the attempt to generalize the mythical scientific method to everyday logic and trial and error. That sort of begs the question, "Why is it called the SCIENTIFIC method if every non-scientific field and occupation uses it?" Our primitive ancestors invented methods of fishing, trapping, cooking, making clothes, and building shelters thru trial and error. But that doesn't mean they were doing science. They were simply using their evolved logic and senses. In fact nothing at all distinguishes science as some superior field over any other like engineering, architecture, agriculture, etc. It relies on the same principles of experimentation and logic that man has always used, but that doesn't mean it invented experimentation and logic.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And since he finished the quote with, " It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research" common sense tells most of us that he was making a point that knowledge by itself was not sufficient.
    Again, not sure how he would apply any of that imagination, to ghosts, goblins, poltergeists, etc

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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Actually that's not really logical. One needs to pay heed to any ridiculous claims, so as he does have the ammunition and knowledge to refute such crank driven statements as they are made. Particularly with regards to the supernatural, ghosts, goblins, Poltergeists etc.
    I'm sure Albert treated such imagination with the contempt it deserves.
     
  8. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    So do you agree that "imagination is MORE important than knowledge" just as Einstein said and not "just AS important as knowledge" as you erroneously claimed Einstein meant?
     
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Doesn't beg the question at all.
    Science is afterall a refinement of everyday living, [ another Einstein quote] as is the scientific method a refinement of everyday logic and sensibility.
     
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I believe Einstein was making a point, and as such I'm sure he was inferring imagination just as important as knowledge.
     
  11. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    But that's not what he said. Why are you twisting Einstein's own words to support your own personal belief that imagination ISN'T more important than knowledge?
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Because common sense and logic tells us it isn't.
    And moreover nothing at all to do with my personal beliefs, but far more likely to do with your own personal beliefs and imagination particularly concerning ghosts and Poltergeists. That is the fairy tale you are trying to salvage some credibility for.
    " It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research"
    "Science is afterall a refinement of everyday living",

    Again, Albert was simply making a point.
     
  13. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    So you're saying Einstein was wrong about this?

    Right..the point being "imagination is more important than knowledge."
     
  14. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Too true, MR.

    ...and : "The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking". -A. Einstein

    and again, MR, there is no need to pay heed to anything other than what you KNOW..
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Einstein had no qualms about admitting he was wrong.
    On this particular question though, you fail to see the forest for the trees and your own well known agenda.

    No, the point being, Imagination goes hand in glove with knowledge.
     
  16. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    I have no choice but to concur with you on this, MR...

    It is quite obvious that Albert Einstein meant exactly what you and I both have read and interpreted correctly.
    Again, the quotes, not just the point being that "imagination is more important than knowledge.", but also the esteem he held for imagination :

    - “I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.”

    - “Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.”
    - both above quotes : by Albert Einstein
    http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/imagination

    At any rate...back to the Thread...O.K.?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed - including a nice padded room in an asylum.

    Imagination is nothing without the ability to take what you have imagined and do something with it... case in point, in science it is typically required to have some sort of reproducible event/system/method of showing what you are claiming is true... there's a good reason for this.
     
  18. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    The method is how we model theory, theoretical predictions and conduct experiments to test the predictions. I mentioned the scientific method in a post and the originator of this thread wants to confine it to some non evolving textbook definition. What the originator of this thread wants to say is the scholarship associated with scientific research isn't really necessary to doing constructive science.
     
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  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    From a perfect lay person blinkered perspective it could seem that way dmoe.

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    I mean try thinking outside the box [in other words use some imagination]
    eg: Let's put Einstein's imagination into the noggin of a 20 year old drop out and ask him to come up with SR...or GR...or a TOE.

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    You get the picture?
    We all know that this poor clunk would be lost in obscurity, and would only revel in packing shelves at the local supermarket or collecting garbage.
    Now don't get me wrong, those jobs as in any job are important, but it illustrates that imagination would not work alone.
    Or to visualise it another way......
    Would you suggest that someone, a child for instance, should forgo going to school and education, simply because he/she has a vivid imagination? Of course you wouldn't! So a person who takes the "Imagination is more Important than knowledge" should rather indulge in day dreaming and fairy tales rather than learning? Of course not, and you would also agree with that.
    In other words, Einstein did not just sit around imagining, and subsequently coming up with the secrets of the Universe.

    Now taking his statement in proper context, one can see that Einstein was clearly talking about science, particularly physics.
    We all know that it took Einstein 11 years to develop GR from when he developed SR, and that in those 11 years he did study hard to aquire the required mathematical knowledge like Riemann geometry and calculus, while at the same time standing on the shoulders of giants of the present and past, to extract important bits of info from any relative knowledge partaking to those giants.
    That knowledge gained, is what made Einstein so confident that the Eddington eclipse experiment would support GR.
    No one argues imagination is not necessary, but along with that imagination one needs knowledge, and as such each compliments the other. One cannot do without the other.
    I'm absolutely positive you would agree with that.
     
  20. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, Kittamaru, but you seem to be....well...

    At any rate if you have issue with the quoted : “Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.”, I feel that you should probably take it up with with the person who Authored those words : Albert Einstein

    Personally, I prefer not to argue against Albert Einstein.

    So....
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  21. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Then why did I say the exact opposite?

    "Right..education is necessary in science. I never said otherwise. But it's not the source of imagination, which is what drives scientific discovery."
     
  22. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    What is this, "From a perfect lay person blinkered perspective it could seem that way dmoe.", and why did you Post it, paddoboy ?

    Did Posting that add anything of value to this discussion, paddoboy?

    What are you hoping to achieve by Posting this, paddoboy?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  23. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    It's good ideas based in scholarship. You couldn't imagine Guth and Linde's idea unless you understood details about quantum field theory and GR. Folks spend years acquiring the scholarship. You're born with an imagination. You want to minimize that part of being a scientist for what purpose? I've been hearing that same nonsense for the 20 years I've been posting in public science forums. Not once has it come true. The cranks dream.
     
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