SPACE TRAVEL AND THE BENEFITS:

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by paddoboy, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I would also add, that the human lifespan is lengthening..We are conquering many diseases including various cancer types...In general we are healthier.
    We have many difficulties to overcome.....With the help of Nanotechnology we'll do it, I'm rather confident of that.
    By the same token, we could be smacked by a giant space rock next week.
    And that could be the end of us all. But who in their right minds, live their day to day lives with that thought at the back of their minds.

    It may take 200 years, 500 years, or even 1,000 years, but the stars will always be what we will strive for...That's human nature.
    Global warming, may put that inevitability further into the future, then what would normally be...But it won't end humanity....politics and economics, those two horrible variables will change in time to be more favourable.

    http://gizmodo.com/5247705/why-we-need-to-reach-the-stars-and-we-will

    One thing is clear, humanity’s potential is immense and science and technology are full of surprises. Interstellar travel may seem like a very long way off, but it will never become a reality if we don’t try.

    That's part of the many benefits and advantages of continued space exploration and endeavours. By continuing to venture forward, we gain in knowledge.
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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  5. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not arguing against man's desire for exploration. I'm just trying to be a little realistic

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    There has been a lot of technological change in the last 100 years. That doesn't mean this will increase forever in a linear way.

    There are still many people on Earth today who aren't living radically different lives that some were living 1,000 years ago.

    We went to the Moon 45 years ago (approx) and man hasn't gone further than the ISS since. We haven't done a very good job of exploring our own oceans (an interest of mine).

    Life on Earth has almost had to start over several times already and man isn't likely to escape that fate either eventually.

    I grew up in North Carolina and there is a place called "The Lost Colony" where the first non-permanent settlers from the "Old World" came. They didn't survive the first winter for reasons that aren't entirely clear.

    Sending a space ship 4.2 light years (for example) to the Alpha Proxima system, looking for a planet at least as adaptable to human life as Mars, being sustainable, etc. doesn't have a high probability for success.

    Man isn't likely to keep on trying given the cost (financial, human, etc). It's not a given that people will ever go beyond our Solar System. It's very unlikely that they would go beyond Alpha Proxima.

    If humans manage to exist for millions of years...sure...anything could happen. It doesn't seem to have happened on Alpha Proxima however as they don't seem to have visited Earth.

    I think that life is probably fairly common in the universe but given the distances involved I don't think it's likely for any of us (including "aliens") to be able to visit anyone else.
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I'm just slightly more optimistically realistic.

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    The problem, is that what we see as difficult or even Impossible today, maybe entirely different tomorrow. And that desire you mention, will always be responsible for just looking that little bit further ahead.

    Agreed....

    True.

    Agreed in relation to the Oceans....On the other, again, as I mentioned, those two horrid variables of economics and politics, has no doubt stalled things somewhat. Some even say, if it were not for those two variables, we could already be on Mars........and those same two variables are probably also responsible in part with regards to the Oceans.

    Sure, but the smarter we are getting with time, the better are our chances of surviving as a species, most catastrophic events.

    Neither was putting a man on the Moon 55 years ago.

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    We managed it step by step, with the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo programes.

    As I said, that depends on how much time we are given, coupled with uniting here on Earth as a species.

    Agreed again, time and distance are great barriers for ET contact.
    But again, perhaps some advanced species has passed us by, seeing us as primitive and nothing to gain by contacting....Just as we may walk by an ant hill without a second thought.


    Totally in agreement with life being relatively common, and as already mentioned time and distance are great barriers inhibiting contact.
    One of the reasons why the earth sized planets found around an 11 billion year old star is exciting news.
    Life is probably arising and going extinct all the time, and we are also facing that inevitable peril, but the more time we are here, and the more we progress and improve our lot with scientific knowledge, the better our chances will be to put that further back. But in the end even the Universe has a "use by date" a few hundred trillion years hence, which gives us plenty of time to achieve the dreams of inter stellar travel.
     
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, getting 100% of mass converted energy is about (by memory) is 100 times greater yield per Kilogram than fusion. I'm not knowledgeable about how to make anti-particles most efficiently but now that is via accelerators. So I think more than all that 100 fold advantage would be used up in production of the anti-matter. Say making positrons which would be the easiest to store in some very high vacuum "magnet bottle." I'm not sure it is even conceptually possible to fill it with many, without some already in the "container" being able to leak out - but lets assume a high density of positrons could be injected into the no-doubt very heavy magnetic storage container, despite their mutual strong repulsion forces - an extremely optimistic assumption as man does not know how to do that even for a low density electrically neutral fusion plasma, where the mutual repulsion is via simple collision, not the strong electric force interaction. That BTW increases with roughly the square of the positron volumetric density as each is repelled by all the others - not linear in the density as plasma pressure goes with density.

    It is much like "hydrogen fuel" for cars, positrons too are not a "fuel" but an energy storage system, much more difficult to store than liquid hydrogen or a fusion plasma. Then there is the conservation of energy and momentum problem with particle/ anti-particle annihilation. For example e + p makes two 511Mev gammas traveling in opposite directions. I. e. no net thrust. Even with a large and strong (read that as very heavy) source of magnetic field, one could still do nothing to turn one of the gamma rays 180 degrees to get some thrust.

    What one could do, is have a thick-walled lead hemisphere around the annihilation chamber and absorb all the gammas "going the wrong way." Stopping them would capture their momentum as thrust for the rocket. Unfortunately gammas are huge in energy but with little momentum. Thus if the acceleration thrust they are to produce is 1G, you are in a 'Cattch 22" - you need a hugh flux of gammas stoping in lead, but it must be very massive if their energy does not heat it above its melting point. The "catch 22" is that if you solve the Lead "gamma-stopper" melting problem by doubling the lead mass, you must also double the gamma flux to keep your 1G.

    I agree man is very clever, at times, but he will not violate conservation of momentum or that "catch 22." I.e. for every X% increase in the gamma stopping mass, you need also X% increase in gamma production rate to keep the ratio of thrust to mass ratio (F/M = acceleration) still equal to 1G. (I just used lead to make the point clear, titanium with higher melting point may be better, but the space traveler may not want to live with tons of red hot metal.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2015
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Well, you'd store it as antihydrogen (or heavier elements) rather than positrons. There are several theoretically possible ways to do it.
    Exactly. You make it and then use it.
    Or just a blanket of water, or even a balloon full of gas. Or let them go and rely on the heavier results of the reaction.
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Not compatible with physic laws. I.e. you can not put antihydrogen in a tank - it hits the wall and destroys the tank. You need to be able to apply a force on the anti-mater with no physical contact with it. Of the four known forces only the EM force can do that. The charge to mass ratio of the anti- particle should be a high as possible. For the electron (my memory) that ratio is nearly 2000 times greater than even for the proton or `4000 time higher than the H2 molecule / ion (one electron missing).

    I.e. the best anti-matter fuel, by far, is the positron.
     
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Like, say, with an optical trap?
    =======================
    New antimatter trapping method to provide 'a major experimental advantage'

    January 7, 2013

    Researchers have proposed a method for cooling trapped antihydrogen which they believe could provide 'a major experimental advantage' and help to map the mysterious properties of antimatter that have to date remained elusive. The new method could cool trapped antihydrogen atoms to temperatures 25 times colder than already achieved, making them much more stable and a lot easier to experiment on.

    Researchers have proposed a method for cooling trapped antihydrogen which they believe could provide 'a major experimental advantage' and help to map the mysterious properties of antimatter that have to date remained elusive.

    The new method, developed by a group of researchers from the USA and Canada, could potentially cool trapped antihydrogen atoms to temperatures 25 times colder than already achieved, making them much more stable and a lot easier to experiment on.

    The suggested method, which has been published today (Jan. 7, 2013), in IOP Publishing's Journal of Physics B: Atomic, Molecular and Optical Physics, involves a laser which is directed at antihydrogen atoms to give them a 'kick', causing them to lose energy and cool down.

    Antihydrogen atoms are formed in an ultra-high vacuum trap by injecting antiprotons into positron plasma. An atomic process causes the antiproton to capture a positron which gives an electronically excited antihydrogen atom.
    ================
    Also pretty good.
     
  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    To Billvon: do you have a link? This cooling by laser is more than decade old (probable more than two) basic idea is to do all the standard things, including aligning intrinsic maganet moments in strong field, which is removed and then it takes more energy out to disorganize the particles. Some will be moving faster towards the laser than the averge speed and will have Doppler shifted absorption frequence. They can be Pumped out, leaving the average KE lower - That is how decades ago they got down to milla degrees K. You end up with less than 1000 (less than100?) very cold particles - of zero interest as rocket fuel but good for Boise degenerate state research.

    It is my bed time now - hope you have a link for me to read tomorrow.
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I 'm sure all agree that it is a given, that the ultimate benefit of space exploration, would be inter-stellar travel.....
    Given time and the ability to overcome our Earthly follies, it could be done.

    http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ipspaper.html
    Emerging Possibilities for Space Propulsion Breakthroughs
    Originally published in the Interstellar Propulsion Society Newsletter, Vol. I, No. 1, July 1, 1995.

    Marc G. Millis
    Space Propulsion Technology Division
    NASA Lewis Research Center
    Cleveland, Ohio

    The ideal interstellar propulsion system would be one that could get you to other stars as quickly and comfortably as envisioned in science fiction. Before this can become a reality, two scientific breakthroughs are needed: discovery of a means to exceed light speed, and discovery of a means to manipulate the coupling between mass and spacetime. This article explains why these breakthroughs are needed and introduces the emerging possibilities that may eventually lead to these breakthroughs. It should be noted that either of these breakthroughs by itself would have revolutionary consequences which would be of enormous value.

    The need to exceed light speed: Simply put, the universe is big. The fastest thing known is light, yet it takes over four years for light to reach our nearest neighboring star. When NASA's Voyager spacecraft left our solar system is was traveling around 37- thousand mph. At that rate it couldn't reach the nearest star until after 80-thousand years. If we want to cruise to other stars within comfortable time spans (say, less than a term in Congress), we have to figure out a way to go faster than light.

    The need to manipulate mass and spacetime coupling: This need is less obvious than the light speed issue. The problem is fuel, or more specifically, rocket propellant. Unlike a car that has the road to push against, or an airplane that has the air to push against, rockets don't have roads or air in space. Rockets have to carry along all the mass that they'll need to push against. To circumvent this problem, we need to find a way to interact with spacetime itself to induce propulsive forces without using propellant. This implies that we'll need to find a way to alter a vehicle's inertia, its gravitational field, or its connectivity to the structure of spacetime itself.

    more info at.....
    http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ipspaper.html

    Marc Millis also leads the "Tau Zero Foundation" that I mentioned earlier.

    These people are not hacks Billy. They do have brain matter upstairs, and if things were as useless and hopeless as you seem to suggest, I don't believe they would be wasting their time.
     
  14. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    Me thinks that you have that bass ackwards, paddoboy!!

    The benefit of Interstellar Travel would be the exploration of more of the universe!!

    But alas, Interstellar Travel is still Fantasy at this point in time!!
     
  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    27,543
    Can we have that again in English please?

    It appears you are somewhat confused.
    Let me say again.....
    I 'm sure all agree that it is a given, that the ultimate benefit of space exploration, would be inter-stellar travel, ignoring at this time, intergalactic exploration.....



    The subject matter is the benefit of space exploration.
    Inter-stellar travel is the ultimate achievement from space exploration, ignoring at this time for simplicity Intergalactic exploration.
    Quite a legitimate speculative scenario with regards to space exploration and well worth discussing with sensible knowledgable people in the current forum.
     
  16. brucep Valued Senior Member

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    BillyT thinks we'd be pulling a tender with 837m_earth equivalent in fuel. For me it would be a sublight warp where the spacetime geometry is modified so the ship constantly falls 'over some delta g' gradient. Ideally the gradient would be g_earth. You would introduce a continuous electromagnetic charge to modify the local spacetime. For g_earth the charge would be equivalent to the mass of the earth. I think. LOL.
     
  17. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    paddoboy, repeating untruths do not make those untruths any more true.

    You know for a fact that I am not confused.

    I must ask, though, why did you have to include the ignorance of intergalactic exploration?

    BTW, paddoboy, if you do not understand "bass ackwards"...well...

    For a fact, paddoboy, if, and I repeat, IF humankind ever achieves FTL travel, then that is when the exploration of space will truly begin. Until such time our civilization will be confined to only exploring our tiny neighborhood.

    For instance, all theoretical knowledge of BH's will be supplanted by the real knowledge that will be accrued by actually being able to study a seeming BH up close and personal.

    paddoboy, you have to understand the difference between Fantasy/Science Fiction/Dreams and Reality.

    ...time for another PM yet?
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, nice one brucep.....
    We certainly have a long way to go but while JPL and Glenn Labs and other private concerns exist, dedicated to getting as far as we can, there is always hope.
    The ultimate benefit of continued space exploration, would be inter-stellar travel, ignoring at this time, intergalactic exploration.....
     
  19. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    ???!!!...time for another PM yet?
     
  20. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Well as you well as you well know from past experiences, I do not lie on this forum.
    Possibly a case of Pot, kettle, black?

    The ultimate benefit of Space travel and exploration is eventual stellar travel.
    All you have offered is your usual confusion, misinterpreting, as noted by others and general trolling.

    Um, perhaps others might like to answer that.

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    Interstellar travel and exploration, comes before Intergalactic travel and exploration, in the minds of most thinking individuals.

    No, wrong. Exploration of space starts with what we are doing now...LEO, ISS and long stays, Moon Landings, Mars manned missions, Asteroid Mining and much more stuff further afield.

    Sure, that will be done amongst many other things, when our solar system has been explored and manned out posts positioned at advantagous points within.



    dumbest man on earth, who I PM, and when I PM, will be at my discretion...totally, and only governed by any stupid child like behaviour and trolling by others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2015
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    One thing is abundantly clear, humanity’s potential is immense and science and technology are full of surprises. Interstellar travel may seem like a very long way off, but it will never become a reality if we don’t try.
    A united approach will be the way to go.
     
  22. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    ...so...still...

    paddoboy, why must you always make accusations?
     
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    What accusations?
     

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