Solar System 'traverses all of the spiral arms of the Milky Way during 225my orbit ?!

It's the incumbent theory of galactic spiral arms. Live with it.
And as far as "near certainty" applies, coming from someone who also says that Evolution and Abiogenesis are not anywhere "near certain", your general sympathetic creationist opinion, can be taken with a grain of salt.
And also, as I have informed you twice so far, any scientific theory, can have some competition or rival alternative hypothesis.

 

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A word of advice dmoe. Your continued ranting here, and failure to accept the obvious, is very much likened to chinglu and his crazy opposition to time dilation, length contraction, FoR's and SR.
Do you really need to be viewed in that light?

 

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Member .................................. Join Date ....... Total Posts .............. Posts Per Day

"dumbest man on earth" ........... 10-21-11 ........ 1,936 ...................... 1.89

"paddoboy" .............................. 08-13-13 ........ 5,597 ..................... 15.41

Gain attention ???!!!

 

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I post on science, the scientific method, peer review, scientific speculation, derision of the Anti brigade, YEC's and Alternative nuts......and they are numerous and need numerous refutation in case young students and the like are vieweing. :shrug:
That will continue, when and if necessary. Live with it.

 

Here's an Interesting article from December last year......
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IAC astronomers discover 'The Music of the Galaxies': 18/12/2013


Astronomers at the IAC have discovered complex patterns of resonances in the discs of spiral galaxies not previously described by theories.

Using the GHaFaS 2dimensional spectrometer they have measured the velocities of the density waves in the discs of over a hundred galaxies

Within the discs of spiral galaxies there are waves which propagate concentrically in the form of spirals. This is somewhat similar to the waves on the surface of a lake, or the standing waves on the strings of a violin, or on the surface of a drum, to use a musical metaphor. These are the so-called “density waves” . Astrophysicists from the IAC have discovered, in over a hundred galaxies which they have observed, that there are more density waves than predicted by theory and that there are relations between them forming a complex pattern of resonances, which orchestrate the “Music of the Galaxies”


The researchers of the IAC Joan Font Serra and John Beckman have studied the velocity fields ( the complete set of velocities in the material of a galaxy) of over 100 galaxies in order to find scientific evidence about density waves, and to measure with precision their velocities of propagation. These waves are lines of greater density of stars which propagate through the disc of a galaxy in the form of a spiral.

Until now the theory had described the existence in any galaxy with spiral arms of a density wave with its resonances. Many spiral galaxies contain, as well as arms, stars organized in a straight line pattern, called bars. For these galaxies the theory predicted two sets of waves, one in the inner part of the galaxy containing thebar, and the other in the outer part containing the spiral arms.

In their study, however, the astronomers found to their surprise more than two circular zones of density waves in almost all the galaxies analysed. The most frequently found number was four, although the maximum was seven.

“These patterns link the different rings of resonances in pair: the second with the fourth, the first with the fifth, the third with the fourth, and so on. The patterns differ from galaxy to galaxy, but exist in virtually all of them. The majority contain one of these patterns but there are discs with two, three, and even four” explains Beckman.

“We could say that if we consider these density waves as waves in a vibrating instrument, in each galaxy we would be hearing a different symphony. That is to say the waves do not resonate in a chaotic or random way, but they follow patterns: there is orchestration in the music of the galaxies”


To reach these conclusions the astronomers have used a new method, and their own instrument GHaFaS, installed on the William Herschel Telescope at the Roque de los Muchachos Observatory, on the island of La Palma… GHaFaS is capable of measuring the complete velocity field of a galaxy in one go, using the light emitted by its ionized hydrogen.

The two paradoxes of spiral galaxies.

One could describe a spiral galaxy, seen from the side, as having the shape of a fried egg, with a bulge in the centre and a thin disc extending outwards beyond it.. the discs contain the spiral arms which glow with the light of millions of blue stars, which are the most massive and the youngest stars. Decades ago astrophysicists realized that there were two paradoxes related to these arms.

As Beckman explains “ spiral galaxies are like huge Catherine wheels, the fireworks which spin round on a nail. But they are not solid; they consist of thousands of millions of stars. When we measure their velocities of rotation about the centre of the galaxy we would predict that the arms would wind up in a couple of galaxy rotations and disappear. But the great majority of disc galaxies have arms, so they have not disappeared.

This is the first paradox. The second is that the massive blue stars have lives which are short by astronomical standards, of around ten million years or less, while the galaxies exist for several thousand million years. How could these massive blue stars exist in the arms of so many galaxies?


The answers to both of these paradoxes can be found in the theory of spiral density waves. “There exist waves, in spiral form, which rotate within galaxy discs, which keep the arms spiral, and which bring about the continuous formation of new massive blue stars, continually feeding the arms” explains the astrophysicist of the IAC. When the maximum density of a spiral wave passes through a region the gas in the region is compressed, causing the birth of new stars from the hydrogen which is abundant in the interstellar medium.

On the basis of this work we can explain more about the behaviour of these waves, and relate them to other observable parameters, such as the shape of the arms, the light distribution in the discs, or the presence of stellar rings in some discs. So we are offering new and useful data for the next generation of theories” summarises Beckman.

http://www.iac.es/divulgacion.php?op1=16&id=830&lang=en

 

That exact point Trippy, was noted by dmoe in post 71 THUS...

and inferred as contrary to my claim thus
"Originally Posted by paddoboy
That orbital period is about 225 million years.
During that orbital period, our solar system traverses all of the spiral arms, and also has an osscillation above and below the equatorial plain of the Milky Way."

I replied to that as follows in post 73:.........

 

That 'point' was not missed by me.
Which is why I have been requesting that paddoboy provide "supporting evidence" for the 'claim', as he originally 'defined' it :

 

Since you repeated the ^^above^^ paddoboy...

In exactly which Post and what Thread did you read where I 'originally claimed "IT DID NOT" ' ?

It would be nice if you could actually "quote" the Post that contains what you already "QUOTED" and asserted to be my words.

But alas...

 

No alas needed. You inferred the solar system does not traverse through the spiral arms.
You based that on what you supposedly learned 50 years ago.
You have ignored all evidence supporting wave density in this thread, just as Creationists, and God Botherers, along with nutty Alternative pushers ignore all evidence showing their errors in judgement.
Your rather silly claim following, supports your obvious maligned agenda for this "much ado about nothing"effort you have persisted in.

We weren't around for the BB either, nor for Abiogenesis.....But we have fairly good reasons to see both as realistic and near certain.
You are wrong but as on previous occasions when you have been wrong, you lack the intestinal fortitude to admit your errors due to your baggage laden agenda.
I 've made my point, and I am not playing your child like games anymore.
The result is in and the incumbent theory stands as it has since the mid sixties.
bye dmoe.

 

I see it as straight out dishonesty, due to his now revealed agenda. :shrug:

 

No, paddoboy, I clearly Posted that it seemed to conflict with what I had been taught and learned of the 'orbit' of our Solar System within the Milky Way Galaxy.
I was taught and learned that our Solar System resides in one of the lesser arms of the Milky Way, commonly referred to as "Orion's Arm" or "Orion's Spur".
And, from what I understood, our Solar System maintained its position in that lesser arm during it's 'orbit' of the Milky Way Galaxy.

I then also clearly stated that I started this Thread so that possibly some Members would be able to clarify the issue.

That issue being your 'claim' :

- Which you have yet to provide any "True Scientific Evidence" that properly supports your 'claim', paddoboy.

I never stated that I 'supposedly learned that 50 years ago'.
*** Note : '50 years ago' would be 'the mid sixties' ***

I have not 'ignored' any of the 'evidence supporting wave density in this thread'.
It is simply that the 'wave density' theory is not in any way "supporting evidence" of your 'claim'.

That "paragraph" was only an "aside", to origin, as I stated to Russ_Waters in my Post #13 - surely you read and fully understood and comprehended that Post as you do all other Posts on SciForums.

paddoboy, is 'near certain' similar to 'near dead', 'near pregnant' or 'near infinite'?
And in reference to this 'we', paddoboy, do you perhaps have a mouse in your pocket?

More "Waffling" with "assumptions", "presumptions", "allegations" and "ad hominem" attacks, paddoboy?

And...still...more "Waffling" with "assumptions", "presumptions", "allegations" and "ad hominem" attacks, paddoboy?

I am not sure what 'result', nor which 'incumbent theory stands as it has since the mid sixties' you are referring to.
However, paddoboy, 'the mid sixties' was '50 years ago'...

You have 'claimed' that before too, paddoboy...

...but, alas...

 

So...the 'bye dmoe', evidently did not mean that the "ad hominem" attacks against me would cease...

...again, alas...

 

I was not addressing you.
Our peers will judge you and I.


In essence then, in spite of the deliberate confusion that has been posted, spiral arms are thought to be a result of density waves, that have also been applied to the ring structure of Saturn.
"density waves" solve the winding problem and other areas of spiral arm/galactic structure as detailed in many links, the most recent being....
http://www.iac.es/divulgacion.php?op1=16&id=830&lang=en
as late as December last year.

With the wave density accepted theory, it is seen how our solar system, and the spiral arms do not rotate as one, but at different rates, and as such our Sun in its 225 million year orbital journey around the galactic center of gravity, will pass through all spiral arms.

Like most accepted incumbent theories, that leads to logical assumptions re the age of the Universe/solar system/galaxy, the YEC's and other closet God botherer nuts, will challenge it consistently, and as shown here, quite illogically, to get their evangelistic message across...All without any evidence whatsoever, without any problem solving applicability, and quite a large dose of audacity.

 

The article referred to in my previous post, and subsequently [but as expected] ignored by others I mentioned concludes thus.......

On the basis of that recent work, the wave density theory stands as the accepted incumbent model, which consequently means that the Sun certainly does pass through all spiral arms on that 225 million Km journey.

This has been evidenced as explained early in the paper thus.

But like religious zealots everywhere, like alternative hypothesis pushers that need to rewrite all of cosmology with their ToE's, and like the many conspiracy nutters that claim 9/11 and Moon landings were not as normally accepted, they will continue to oppose anything that contradicts their mythical delusions.

 

The referenced Link in Post #94 and Post #95 : http://www.iac.es/divulgacion.php?op1=16&id=830&lang=en ; titled "IAC astronomers discover 'The Music of the Galaxies' ".
It is culled from The Astrophysical Journal Supplement Series Volume 210 Number 1 paper, "Interlocking Resonance Patterns in Galaxy Disks" by J. Font, J.E.Beckman, M. Querejeta, B.Epinat, P. A. James, J. Blasco-Herrera, S. Erroz-Ferrer, I. Perez.

The Cornell University Library "abstract" at : http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.3415

The "Full" paper (only available as .pdf) at : http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.3415v1.pdf

This paper is relating to the Density Wave theory, which I have absolutely no problem with.

However, neither in this paper, nor any other Link in this Thread has has any reputable scientific source been "cited" that actually offered supporting evidence of the 'claim' :

Oh, and now 'the Sun certainly does pass through all spiral arms on that 225 million Km journey'...!!!

The sun passes 'through all spiral arms', on only a '225 million Km journey' ???

 

Exactly Trippy!
And being the accepted incumbent theory, one then logically must conclude that the Sun certainly does pass through all galactic arms.
That's exactly what density wave theory entails...why some have so much trouble understanding that is bizzare....

It's obvious that those that do not accept the evidence showing wave density theory to be correct, and the Sun consequently passing through the arms, are the same that question the BB and the evidence that supports that.
Religiously induced baggage I would suggest!

 

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"In a paper published today on the Los Alamos astro-ph preprint service, astronomers propose that as many as eleven past extinction events can be linked to the Sun's passage through the spiral arms of the Milky Way. (You can download the paper here [pdf].) From the paper: 'A correlation was found between the times at which the Sun crosses the spiral arms and six known mass extinction events. Furthermore, we identify five additional historical mass extinction events that might be explained by the motion of the Sun around our Galaxy. These five additional significant drops in marine genera that we find include significant reductions in diversity at 415, 322, 300, 145 and 33 Myr ago. Our simulations indicate that the Sun has spent ~60% of its time passing through our Galaxy's various spiral arms.'"

http://beta.slashdot.org/story/191917
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For all the kiddies out there. Our solar system traverses the MW galaxy over 225 million years and will pass through all of our spiral arms while doing so. [Considering though that just as the Sun/solar system is moving, so too is the independent spiral arm, held in shape by wave density. So the time to cross all arms maybe different] That can be logically deduced from the scientifically accepted and peer reviewed" incumbent wave density theory" of galactic spiral arms.
Thank you linesman, thank you ball boys!

 

Adding to my previous post, I would also see it logical to surmise that over the 5 billion years or so that our Sun and its entourage of planets has been orbiting the galactic center, that other gravitational perturbations have been responsible for orbital change, beyond what was normally expected....passing another star relatively close for example.....At present the Sun's closest stellar companion is Proxima, in the Centauri system.
But in a few 10's of thousands of years [too lazy to check the exact amount of time] our closest companion will be Barnard's Star.
A close approach to a cluster of stars could also change what would be normally expected.
These effects would be somewhat lessened as we passed outside an arm, or density wave.
Our present recognised constellations will not be as they are for ever.
The Pleiades star cluster was not around 100 million years ago.
Our continued path around the galaxy, through the arms, maybe fraught with danger.