More Ukrainian Events

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Yazata, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    ah yes more anti american ranting from the queen of double standards. always claiming the high ground yet always takes the side the most violent people in a conflict. :

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    : yes cause the US is responsible for all the evil in the world and russia has never overthrown a government ever.
     
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm. You see Bells you can't read the article I posted through a rain of tears. You also cannot understand the points he is making by emotionally attaching yourself to the so called 'enemy'. That's the nonsense that keeps people from critically analyzing a situation. Then again its difficult for people to come to conclusions if they can't see through the barrage of sentiment provoking propaganda, the same kind of propaganda that kept 49 out of 50 Americans in one study believing Saddam Hussein was the cause of 9/11 (only one person changed their view when presented with facts). The rush to judgement while ignoring all other sides of a story leads to the kind of black and white thinking that casts pro russian separatists as "the baddies" and Kiev as "the good guys". Many New Yorkers also cried as their loved ones were "strewn across" the streets of downtown Manhattan buried under tons of building material, the site also "reeked of decomposition" and of those who rushed to blame without stepping back even a little would learn years later that there were no weapons of mass destruction and the heros were the aggressors and they were not honoring their dead by automatically casting some face scrawled over the media as the enemy. So take a deep breath and read Mr. Cohen's analysis again. You may find Youreyes isn't exactly defending "mother russia" as much as taking a broader look at the situation.

    Also in response to the links you provided I will leave you with this http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europ...le-brought-down-mh17-2014718163942898727.html

    Needless to say it doesn't have pro Russian separatists "stealing" the dead bodies to eat for dinner along with some lava beans and a bottle of Cianti. It does say "Leaders of the rebels' self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic denied any involvement and said a Ukrainian air force jet had brought down the intercontinental flight." Maybe its true, maybe its not. What is true is at the moment is no one knows. It also doesn't say that they "hid", or "lied" or "destroyed" evidence but that "Both Ukraine and the separatists later agreed to establish a corridor through the battlefield to allow international investigators in. However, about 30 monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) had arrived at the Grabovo crash site on Friday but said they were unable to inspect the area properly and would try again on Saturday. Al Jazeera's Nazanine Moshiri, reporting from Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine, said some investigators were at the site for about 75 minutes but "were unable to make any kind of decent assessment" as a ceasefire was not in place." Explains why they haven't found the "black box". It may not be as exciting as rabid Russian barbarians stealing airline vomit bags, guilders and cheese crackers not to mention that cute bathing suit someone packed for the beach nor is it as exciting as babushka's squirreling away the dead like zombies just so they can have their way with them.

    Unlike many the Dutch Prime Minister came to the most rational conclusion. He said "WHEN it becomes clear that this was an attack, THEN I will personally ensure that the perpetrators will be hunted and punished accordingly."
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well you're a strange duck aren't you. Where in my post do I claim the US is responsible for the downed airline or that Russia never overthrew a government? Though it would be interesting if you could actually name a foreign government Russia has actually overthrown. Maybe you can look in your comic book and come up with one.
     
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  7. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Well there's classic old examples from the days of the Russian empire. Lots of Muslim-populated territories annexed from the Ottomans, Poland was historically carved up between Russia, Austria and Prussia. Chechens were denied their independence in a campaign more violent than anything the west has ever committed short of nuking Japan. There's a huge chunk of Siberia populated by ethnic Hans and other Chinese which was seized by Russia at the turn of the 20th century (China still wants it back). Russian tanks were sent to crush popular revolutions in Czechoslovakia and Hungary.

    Russia's always been on the prowl for more land. Britain in its heyday controlled 1/4 of the Earth's surface, so expect Russia to aim for a slightly larger figure, in order to feel good about themselves and force the world to acknowledge their superior genetics and unrivaled ability to retain hard liquor.
     
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's within the US, where US law applies.
    I am assuming pro-Russian separatists downed that one plane BECAUSE of the evidence we have so far.
    Indeed! And one of the reasons is that armed men are keeping investigators away, apparently worried about what they will discover.
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    The flow of tears are for the loved ones of mine who were on that plane. Not for the bastards who shot them down, boasted about it on social media and on the phone

    And you can only see the points he is making because your head appears to be as firmly up your backside as his is.

    Oh, you think it's propaganda? Like when they refused to allow International investigators to even approach the wreckage? Or when they fired warning shots at them when they attempted to go near it? Or when they started taking away bodies to parts unknown? Or when they are trampling over a crime scene, removing bodies, moving things, and by all accounts, stealing people's money, credit cards, cameras, mobile phones? They have been caught out doing it by International Journalists who are there on the ground. What propaganda was it that had one of them cheering as that plane fell from the sky declaring "that was a blast"? Was that for our enjoyment? Or the boasting phone call that quickly turned to panic as they attempted to figure out how to hide what they had done? Or the boasts on Twitter about what they had done? Your comparison could only be valid if we were saying the Cambodians shot down the plane. Since pro-Russian and pro-Russian armed rebels not only admitted to having done it, not only confirmed they had shot down "100% civilian plane" and then reassured their Russian counterparts that there were no parts of the missile left, since they filmed themselves and then posted videos online of their laughter as it came down, since they are taking photos of the loot they have managed to steal from the dead bodies and posting them online, really, you want to whine about the propaganda card?

    I want you to show me where I have declared Kiev are the good guys in this? Where? Go on, link it.

    And rush to judgement? They are openly hiding and destroying evidence, they are refusing to allow any International investigators access to the actual crash sites or to remove the remains of the dead, they are refusing to allow them to retrieve or access the black boxes. See, when you commit a crime, say you shoot someone, and then you run around trying to wipe your finger prints off the weapon and then disposing of the weapon as everyone watches you do it, you don't get to claim that you did not do it.

    At some point, you're going to have to post honestly about this issue.

    Also from Al Jazeera:

    So where are they taking the bodies?

    Where did they put them?

    Why are they tampering with the scene? Why are they refusing to allow international investigators onto the site? Perhaps you can explain why they have armed and drunken fucktards shooting at international investigators and refusing to allow them to access the site? Or are you going to whine that it's propaganda as well?

    Ah yes, the OSCE investigators who weren't able to access the site.. I like how you leave out the fact that the reason they weren't able to access it was because they were shot at when they attempted to approach parts of the wreckage.

    If it was a plane, then the pilots would have seen it on their radar and would have said something. They said nothing. They reported nothing untoward. So the theory that they were shot down by a plane is just as bunk as the fucktard trying to claim that the people on the plane were already dead.

    As for the black box..

    Do you know what that's called? Acting guilty and impeding in an investigation and attempting to hide and destroy evidence. Denying access to international investigators and threatening them and shooting at them, refusing to allow them access to the site and to the black boxes, moving bodies and not saying where they are being taken, trampling all over the wreckage and moving things away from the site and trying to hide things.. It is deliberate and willful attempts to prevent anyone from investigating what actually happened. Now, if they had nothing to hide, they would have allowed and encouraged full access, handed over the black box and secured the site. Instead, they are removing things from the site, allowing people to walk all over it, moving things around, refusing access to international investigators first on the scene, removing bodies and refusing to allow Malaysian Airlines to access the black boxes. They have every reason to be doing what they are currently doing if they are guilty and no reason to be doing it if they are innocent of any wrongdoing.

    So make as many jokes about it as you will. You remind me of those people who cheered when 9/11 happened.

    One final point.. Perhaps if they are going to lie about a fighter jet shooting it down.. They should get their stories straight first. Speaking of propaganda and conspiracy theories:

     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed, Crimea was taken by force and annexed by Mother Russia from the Ottoman Empire before it most recently took it by force of arms from Ukraine. And let's not forget all the former Soviet States and the Eastern Block which were de facto annexations by Mother Russia. And mother Russia used force of military arms to maintain its control over Eastern Block countries on many occasions. But most importantly and most relevant are the recent invasions and annexations of portions of Georgia and Ukraine.
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I wasn’t aware US Russia was subject to US criminal law. Perhaps you can enlighten me. It’s a bizarre and desperate comparison. I’d love to see you drag Putin and mother Russia into a US courtroom. It had better be a really big courtroom. Additionally, what is needed to arrest and indict individuals is "probable cause". A jury determines guilt. So your legal notions are really screwed up.

    We are assuming all pro-Russian separatists (i.e. Russian irregular forces) because all the evidence points to them. Russian irregular forces acknowledged the shoot down in the minutes immediately after the shooting. Ukraine has those recordings and if you believe Snowden, which you do, you have to know the US also has those recordings. And the US, President Obama, has reaffirmed the material Ukraine has released.

    Nearly three weeks before the Malaysian Airliner was shot down, NATO publically announced they had observed Russian regular forces training irregular forces in the use of Buk Missile Systems. Coincidentally, this is about the time when high flying Ukrainian airplanes were shot down by Russian irregular forces – actions for which those irregular forces claimed responsibility. Now those same forces want us to believe they don’t have that capability.

    Because Russian irregular forces are blocking that investigation with gunfire, if Russian irregular forces were innocent you would think they would want a credible investigation to absolve them of guilt.

    There is a world of difference between agreeing and doing. Just a few hours ago, Russian irregular forces allowed access to remove bodies, but remove bodies only. And let’s remember, the crash site has already been degraded because of looting and a failure to allow immediate and full access to the crash sites. And the black boxes which were initially found, transferred to Russia and now are missing, well that smells of cover-up too. It’s reminiscent of Korean Airlines 007 where the black box went missing and was magically recovered after the demise of the Soviet Union.

    Investigators will being as soon as Russia stops its irregulars from shooting and intimidating investigators and allows them do their work, and given what we know it is highly likely you have the wrong end of the stick yet again. You seem to be resting all your hopes on the wreckage sight to the exclusion of all else.

    Let’s look at what we know:

    • Phone recordings of Russian irregular forces admitting the shoot down of the Malaysian Air flight and their culpability
    • Web posting of Russian irregular leadership acknowledging and taking credit for the attack
    • Film of Russian irregulars removing Russian Buk Missile System from Ukraine in the immediate aftermath
    • American affirmation of all the above
    • The wreckage fell in territory controlled by Russian irregular forces, airliners don’t normally fly very far once they have lost their airworthiness
    • In the weeks and days preceding the attack on Malaysian Air, Russian irregular forces had claimed responsibility for shooting down other Ukrainian aircraft flying at low and high altitudes.
    • Now all of a sudden Russian irregulars want us to believe they don’t have that capability (funny how that works)

    • Conflicting reports about the black boxes from Russia and the Russian irregular forces. First the black boxes were found and given to Russia. Then they were not.
    • Russian irregular forces have failed to contain and preserve the crash site
    • Russian irregular forces have repeatedly denied full access to the crash site to investigators and actively interfered with the investigation
    • Ukrainians have been calling for an independent international investigation and has been fully cooperative since the incident occurred, Russia and Russian irregular forces operating in Ukraine, not so much. If fact they have been downright hostile to an independent investigation firing weapons in order to intimidate investigators.
    • Putin notified President Obama within a few hours of the attack. Obviously Putin was in touch with the action on the ground. Considering Putin claims no responsibility for his irregular forces, he seems to have a pretty good line of communication with his irregular troops on the ground in the Ukraine.

    And the Ukraine has no motive for shooting down aircraft within its borders. To date, Russian irregular forces operating inside Ukraine do not yet have jet aircraft of any kind. It is most likely and the available evidence indicates that Russian irregular forces recklessly shot down a civilian airliner thinking it was a Ukrainian jet of some sort.

    Now what do you have?

    • Inconsistent denials from Russia and its irregular forces (separatists) in Ukraine and not a shred of evidence. They cannot even get a decent alibi together.

    You seem to want to cherry pick the evidence. If this were a US criminal case there would be more than enough probable cause to throw those Russian irregulars responsible for this attack into jail. A jury would determine if there is sufficient evidence to convict.
     
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    where did i say you did? oh that's right i didn't. but I'm sorry when you seriously try and say we honestly need to look at the possiblity that the Ukrainians who had the ability to idientify the plane as civilian shot it down for shits giggles rather than the group that couldn't tell. I'm not going to take you seriously cause you've yet to been serious on this topic. just anti american ranting.
     
  13. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    "Truth is the first causality of war." "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." The following illustrates both old observations remain true:
    Before the current government of Ukraine seized power in a more than month long coup that killed several dozen people and the president of the prior more pro-Russian government fled to Russia, for personal safety, Ukraine was major ally of Russia. That prior president was elected mainly because of the very strong electoral majority racked up in the eastern part of Ukraine - the part now in armed revolt (low intensity war) with the current government of Ukraine.

    Russian and the prior government held routine joint military drills, and with Russia supplying the more advanced defensive weapons to Ukraine then, including high altitude surface-to-air Buk missiles that accidently shot down a Russian passenger jet in2001, killing all 78 people aboard. The Russian speaking Ukrainians were disproportionally common in the Ukrainian Army / military forces that had joint exercises with the Russian troops ever year back when the Ukraine was a close ally of Russia. Some obviously had to have been trained how to use high altitude capable ground to air missile like the Buk, and probably the Buk itself. Back then, Russia trusted the people of Russian speaking people of East Ukraine. In fact they built tanks and were (still are) the ONLY suppliers of motors for several of Russia's helicopters and other critical military materials and weapons Russia depends upon.

    Thus, it seems to me that the MH17 was shot down by a Buk missile that probably had been in Ukraine for several years, not supplied to the rebels in recent months. As the Ukraine government has already re-captured several cities briefly held by the rebels and reduced the territory held by the Russian speaking rebels, and is very likely to completely crush the Rebel's self proclaimed autonomous regime, which even Russia does not recognize, before the end of 2014, it makes no sense for Russia to supply Buk to the rebels that will very likely soon fall into the hands of the current Ukrainian government, which is certainly no longer an ally of Russia, to understate the facts.

    The only way that would make sense for Putin / Russia to supply Buk missiles to the Rebels now, is if Putin has decided to recognize the rebel's self proclaimed autonomous state status and plans to positively responded to their request for invading Russian troops to protect the Russian speaking population from their claimed abuse by the current government of Ukraine. Russia has several times proclaimed it is both their right and duty to act to protect Russian nationals and abused Russian speaking communities, even by armed invasion if needed.

    The US has as strong pro-Israel history for decades under presidents of both parties. Because Israel promised a "speedy and complete investigation" of any grievous "collateral damage" like the three boys killed playing soccer on the beach, yesterday (or day before?) the US has no harsh words for Israel. Likewise, the US had no condemnation a few years ago when Israel's artillery practice killed a family picnicking on the beach. By Israel own admission, the IDF does routinely practice targeting empty Gaza fields. Israel shortly after the family was killed on the beach held a news conference (which I watched on CNN) that presenting a chart (that gave the hit locations of all but one of the 23 shells fired into Gaza at empty fields). One artillery gun had had accidently excessive powder loaded in the chamber (or was aimed wrong) and over flew the intended target to land on the beach. (Later confirmed by Swedish and other experts who found fragments of an artillery shell in the crater.) I. e. the dead family was "collateral damage" of the on & off low level war, in which Israel has enjoyed an average "kill ratio" of greater than 25 to 1. In the current episode of the Israel/Palestine war, at present that ratio is >300 to 1.
    Note they were at first expecting to find wreckage and the pilots, not 298 dead civilians. Here it the second conversation between "Major" & "Greek" RECORDED BY UKRAINIAN SECURITY FORCES:
    Clearly even Ukranian security forces understood in less than an hour that the 298 dead civilians were "collateral damage" of their war with the rebels.

    SUMMARY: There is NO reason to think the Buk that downed MN17 recently came from Russia, and every reason to believe that Russia only supplied them and the training required to effectively use them to the prior Ukrainian government's army that they held exercises with each year. In 2001 that mainly Russian speaking Ukrainian army did use one to shoot down, by accident, a high flying Soviet passenger plane!

    ~300 civilians killed by Israel is from Obama's POV, just unfortunate "collateral damage" as Israel tries to defend itself with the long standing high kill ratio policy, but ~300 dead innocent civilians killed as "collateral damage" when the Buk was fired at what was believed by the shooters to be one of the Ukrainian war planes, like the three others shot down in the two weeks prior, (after 29June), was in Obama's POV: "an outrage of unspeakable proportions"

    Israel is a "freedom fighter" defending democracy / self determination (except of those in lands it occupies) but the fighter in East Ukraine, who want to democratically rule them selves, not be ruled by the government that over threw the one they elected, are terrorist, etc. The US like all nations has double standards - Friends can do no wrong and enemies seldom do any good, even when both do the same thing. I don't see why theses ~ 600 grieving mothers fail to understand that.

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    Again: "Truth is the first causality of war." "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." is proven true.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2014
  14. p-brane Registered Senior Member

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    289
    Gee Billy, why not just initiate a thread on the only topic that ever really interests you?
     
  15. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Ukraine doesn't have a constitution calling for Russia's obliteration, nor is it digging tunnels and launching thousands of rockets on Russian or eastern Ukrainian homes. Furthermore, we have here a clear coverup attempt in progress going up to the highest levels of the Soviet government, for a single attack causing greater civilian casualties than anything that's ever happened in Gaza's entire history, on top of those casualties hailing from around the globe and having zero involvement with either party in the conflict. Regardless of how they were obtained, Russia's terrorists should never have been permitted or assisted to acquire those anti-air weapons in the first place, nor any other form of Russian logistical support.
     
  16. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    I was commenting on the many post of this thread that unquestioningly swallow the obvious lies told: Believe the Russians recently supplied the Buk to rebels in East Ukraine. Russia has no interest in doing so as soon they will become the property of the current Ukrainian government which is slowing winning the war with the rebels.

    As far as Obama's now strong comment it IMHO, was mainly made to counter the political damage his first weak comment* brought down on his head. He had said the shooting down of MH17 was: "It may be a terrible tragedy" (see quote below.)

    I am appalled at how few posting in this thread can think for themselves, know some of the history, and can think logically so they just swallow the party line.

     
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Except, there was no coupe – damn minor detail again - the former president was indicted by the Ukrainian parliament for murder and corruption and subsequently removed from office by democratic means. And new elections were held and a new Ukrainian president was elected in an open and transparent election. You may recall that indicted former president ordered his police to fire upon peaceful protestors which killed a number of them. The people getting killed were the peaceful protestors. The former president fled to Mother Russia to avoid prosecution for murder and corruption. Yes the first casualty of war is the truth as you have so well exhibited.

    I am perplexed as to why you think any of that is remotely relevant to this discussion.

    Current intelligence says the particular Buk unit was confiscated by Russians when they earlier invaded and annexed Crimea. It was then moved to Eastern Ukraine just before Russian irregulars inside Eastern Ukraine began shooting down high altitude Ukrainian airplanes and openly boasting about it.

    You don’t think it makes sense for Russia to supply Buk’s to their irregular forces inside Eastern Ukraine to shoot down Ukrainian aircraft. And you think it makes more sense that Ukrainian forces would use their anti-aircraft defenses against a foe that doesn’t have aircraft…really?

    And you think any of that makes sense or is relevant to this discussion?

    Only of you ignore the evidence and believe that Ukraine was using anti-aircraft defenses against a foe that didn’t have and still doesn’t have aircraft.

    Again, this isn’t relevant, not to mention cogent. If you want another thread to talk about Israel, please start one.

    Thanks for clearly demonstrating that fact, though not in the manner you had intended, and to that I would add reason.
     
  18. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    I guess you would also find fault with the CIA supplying Ben Laden with nearly 1000 shoulder fired stinger missles - that is how he drove the Russian back over "friendship bridge" they built for the invasion of Afghanistan. (The Russian had to use helicopters to move their troops in that very rugged mountainous terrain. That was the ONLY way to not be ambushed by Ben Laden's freedom fighters (now terrorists, of course) who knew the mountains passes well.)

    Ben Laden was the CIA's best man back in the cold war, just as the Ukrainian sub-division of the USSR was their loyal ally in the cold war. - times change. Japan is no longer the "yellow peril" but the US's ally.

    Almost ALL the east European members of the USSR were supplied with Buk missile* - after all they were the buffer states protecting the Russian "home land" from eminent NATO invasions as NATO placed long range intermediate ICBMs in an almost unbroken ring, from Turkey** to the Baltic sea on the west of Russia.

    * Certainly the Ukraine was - their army shot down by accident a high altitude soviet passenger jet in 2001, killing all 78 on board.

    **They only came out of Turkey as a secrete part of the deal that stopped the "Cuban missile crisis" from escalating into nuclear WWIII - If the Russian ships had not turned back, the US would have invaded the next day. US did not know then that tactile short range nuclear missile were already operational - the invasion would have been a greater defeat for the US than the "Bay o Pigs" invasion was. Moscow and Washington DC would have been smoldering radio-active ashes after the US invasion force was burnt to a nuclear crisp.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2014
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Yes elected by the parliament, not the people, AFTER all the opposition members were forced out of fled for their lives. In the last election by the people, the president who the coup leaders drove out for his life was elected by a comfortable majority.

    I'm not denying that the prior president was a murder and very corrupt. For example, for many years the Swedish assemble it your self furniture company IKEA wanted to open store outlets in Ukraine, but could not pay the required bribes. (Sweden investigates their books too closely the CEO has said - so they could not.) For decades, Ukraine has been known as the most corrupt major nation on earth - far worse than any of the BRICs, who other wise could in the past claim that title. Under the current government, it sees no reason to relinquish that title now either. It is still #144 from the least corrupts - Click on it it in map at: http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results
    US is #19 and England less corrupt at #14. I was too lazy to find the least corrupt - some small nation I guessed after trying both Norway and Sweden.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2014
  20. Arne Saknussemm trying to figure it all out Valued Senior Member

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    And no doubt as the nation with the crappiest, out of style furniture.

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  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Apparently you missed the election. Porochenko was elected in a general election - not by parliment. No one but the former president was forced out.
     
  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    shades of K.A.L 007?
    Was Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 intentionally diverted to a place where 2 Ukrainian planes were recently shot down for the publicity?

    Alexander Borodai, leader of the rebels in Donetsk, said Saturday he believed the flight was shot down but reiterated that his forces did not do it. He told reporters the rebels lacked the firepower to hit an airplane so high up.
     
  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Yes a few weeks ago, when those who elected the prior president (East Ukrainians and Crimeans) could not vote.
    FALSE - Thousands fled east for their lives - some like the president elected by ALL the Ukrainian people, not stopping until safe in Russia. Some who fled even testified before the Russian Duma - in public hearings as to how they were abused and feared for their lives. Widely shown in the Eastern block TV and briefly on CNN international that I get in Brazil.
     

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