Free Will and Determinism

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by humbleteleskop, Jul 6, 2014.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I personally use these discussions to sharpen my debating skills as well as learning a great many things from serious posters in this thread.
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Keep him honest Write4U.
    I've lost patience.
     
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  5. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Yes. That's one of the standard several positions about it, many people hold that opinion. I still urge you to answer my question so we start talking about the same thing. In the meantime let's try this question too: - can your "will" influence the future?
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    YES, but you are missing the point that seldom does anyone make major decisions without discussion with others who may influence my thinking and thereby influence my actions in the future. Thus future actions are not performed by individuals but groups and experts. Thus it is not always a matter of being ruled by Natural law, but by Human law (agreement), modifying or overriding those natural laws which are amenable to change.

    Please, don't think I am arguing that constants are changeable, though even the path and speed of a photon may be influenced by the will of a mechanic who has built an apparatus that gives him the desired result..

    It just occurred to me that you may be asking if I can make something happen by "will" alone. Nah, I'll leave that to theists.

    The will I am speaking of is the commitment to invest time and energy to make something happen in the future without an immediate need for action. AGW is a perfect example. We should have started preparing for the time we will run out of oil and coal. We don't have a lot of time left. And that is a Deterministic fact, which we seem to be ignoring.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  8. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    You are vague, ambiguous and contradicting yourself. There are only two possible answers: yes and no. -- Can your "will" make your body do anything DIFFERENT THAN IT WAS GOING TO DO ANYWAY, as in "influence the future"?

    a.) yes

    b.) no

    Please make yourself clear and pick either yes or no.
     
  9. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    If nature works deterministically, what "wiggle room" there is? Do you believe some super-advanced robot with artificial neural network software based on deterministic algorithms could ever acquire consciousness or free will? Could such robot ever be able to do anything different but what it was predetermined to do for any given scenario or circumstances?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2014
  10. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    How can your "will" influence the future if all the physical matter is moving around strictly according to the laws of physics and not any other way?
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You did not read post 1949 close enough. I am not talking about "willing" something to happen, as I explained that is a theist position.

    The last two paragraphs answer your question.

    On second thought, if you think that question through you will see that it is a silly question. We move matter around all the time, though of course it can be moved only in accordance with the laws of physics. But if we did not move it the laws of physics would not move it spontaneously. IOW we are able to use the laws of physics to obtain a desired result.
    And yes, sigh, our brains work in accordance with physical laws, but thoughts can travel anywhere, imagine anything, anticipate, figure out how to fix broken things. Wiggle room.
     
  12. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    And I am talking about something else. Please answer the question directly: - can your "will" influence the future if all the physical matter is moving around strictly according to the laws of physics and not any other way? Yes or no?
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I am talking about what I am talking about, without response from you. Do you agree with what I said or not?

    Don't try to play games man, I give you plenty of my time without having to follow your orders what it is we should be talking about. if you are not interested in my point of view, I shall NOT try to force you to respond. You see, I allow posters "free will" to post or not.
     
  14. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    I started the topic and asked the question first. I answered many of your questions and commented on many things you said, but you still haven't answered directly my first and only question no matter how many times I asked and rephrased it. So, please answer the question directly: - can your "will" influence the future if all the physical matter is moving around strictly according to the laws of physics and not any other way?

    a.) yes

    b.) no
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    They are the same question. Both your body and your mind are physical entities, and will "do things" in the future. Since your mind controls your body, your body often does what your mind directs. But both obey physical laws.

    Can you predict what it will do? To some degree, yes. However as you get farther and farther into the future that becomes less certain. (It's not just hard to predict, it's impossible.)

    If you are asking "can your mind do something different than your mind was going to do anyway" then that's something of a nonsense question.
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Define "will"
     
  17. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Choice, decision, mind, "yourself". Or from dictionary:
    - the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/will


    You don't even need to know what will is, the question boils down to: - can physical matter move any other other way BUT ONE - the only ONE WAY that is strictly governed by the laws of physics and NOTHING ELSE?
     
  18. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    It's not the same. You told me human body can not do anything that is physically IMPOSSIBLE. And I am asking can human body do anything that is POSSIBLE but DIFFERENT than what would happen ANYWAY? In other words, is there more than one way things can possibly happen?


    That's not specific enough. Can physical matter move any other other way BUT ONE - the only ONE WAY that is strictly governed by the laws of physics and NOTHING ELSE?


    It is not nonsense. "Was going to happen anyway" is what was predetermined before the supposed choice was made. The question is can your mind actually change that and cause something else to happen instead?
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    What makes you think physical matter can move only ONE WAY using physical laws. Which way would that be? Up, down?

    Yes it can, physical matter can move several ways by several physical laws, but "free will" to manipulate the laws of physics only exists in Theism.

    As I have said before I do not dispute physical laws or determinism. But sometimes there are two ways to skin a cat, using physical laws. Either way the cat will be skinned in accordance to physical law and a skinned cat would be a deterministic result.
     
  20. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Is your answer "yes" then?
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    No. Your question lacks clarity and cannot be answered as posed.
     
  22. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    I didn't ask about different physical laws nor about theism or anything else related to philosophy. Let me rephrase it once more: do you think your mind can choose between different ways how your physical body will move?
     
  23. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Causal determinism
    = the idea that everything is caused by prior conditions, making it impossible for anything else to happen.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will

    Determinism
    = for every event, including human action, there exist conditions that could cause no other event.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_determinism


    Do you believe Determinism or Causal determinism is true and actual way how the universe works?
     

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