What will we replace religion with?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Magical Realist, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Yet people do not find what they do in religion elsewhere.
     
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  3. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    Could you expand on this please.
     
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  5. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Pretty general statement without supporting argument. We could do this one of two ways: On the one hand, we could simply take you at word, and ask why it is true. I could suggest that the ubiquity of religion makes it something of a default position for those who feel like their lives are missing something. I would wonder what recourse a person might have if they weren't conditioned to believe that religion were required for "spiritual" awakening or enlightenment.

    On the other hand, I might ask you to elaborate on this claim of yours.

    Take your pick.
     
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  7. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Right... again, sounds like trying to have both sides of the same coin come up at once.

    The way I look at it, the New Testament overrides the Old BECAUSE of Christ... no, simply believing in Christ's story isn't enough to warrant salvation in my opinion (you still have to at least TRY to be a decent human being) but it is that faith that enables you to be saved.

    The problem I have is people that take the Bible for rote and attempt to use it verbatim when, an only when, it suits them... such as this asshole in New York City James David Manning who advocates stoning homosexuals and other such things on the basis of biblical texts, yet conveniently forget the ideas of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"... it's always fun when you can cherrypick WHICH rules from the whole rulebook you want to follow!
     
  8. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Actually, Jesus said that the laws of the OT are still in effect.

    I'd argue that to follow religion at all is to pick sides in a string of dichotomies. The Judeo-Christian scripture is particularly self-contradictory, so cherrypicking is inevitable. After all, I assume you haven't left it all behind to worship Jesus, correct? You haven't given all of your money and possessions to the poor, unless you've been posting from an internet cafe all this time...
     
  9. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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  10. Balerion Banned Banned

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    That isn't what I asked you.

    But how does that belief manifest? From the article:

    “More centrally, our results suggest that belief in the credibility of psychiatric treatment and increased expectations to gain from treatment might be mechanisms by which belief in God can impact treatment outcomes.”

    So what belief in God seems to provide is confidence in the treatment itself. A better education on the sciences could accomplish this without any need to rely on faith.

    I don't believe that. I'm sure the thought is comforting, but I don't think for a second it's required. I also don't believe that a materialist view renders anything insignificant. Indeed, in your day to day life, I doubt you give much thought at all to cosmic significance; rather, you likely concern yourself with matters more immediate.
     
  11. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    It is the sense of community and conformity that people derive their happiness (they think it is a religious high) in a church setting, not God nor any particular belief. I could open up a Happiness workshop and get the same result if I use the same methodology as churches use.

    http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/04/why-we-conform-to-the-group-it-gets-your-brain-high/

    http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/12/religions-secret-to-happiness-its-friends-not-faith/

    http://www.livescience.com/18117-religion-happiness-countries.html

    From above link:

    According to the new study of almost 200,000 people in 11 European countries, people who are religious have higher self-esteem and better psychological adjustment than the non-religious only in countries where belief in religion is common. In more secular societies, the religious and the non-religious are equally well-off.

    "The results suggest that religiosity, albeit a potent force, confers benefits by riding on cultural values," study researcher Jochen Gebauer of Humboldt University in Berlin and colleagues wrote online Jan. 5 in the journal Psychological Science.
     
  12. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I can see why you would want to avoid the benefits of religious attendance, but where else do people find these benefits? You asked me to elaborate.


    That quote from the article does not assert how beliefs manifest. Nor is there any indication, in this study, that confidence in treatment can be increased independently of belief in god. To the contrary:

    Though numerous studies have affirmed the link between religious faith and psychological health, Rosmarin says their study specifically asked why spirituality might be a positive influence in a clinical context. He says participants who exhibited faith in God also showed more faith in treatment and that it was “highly unlikely” for an atheist to find treatment helpful.

    “What (the study) calls for is more awareness of the relationship with patient’s faith and the treatment process,” he says. “If we have patients who are struggling with belief in the treatment process, then talking with them about faith could be helpful. And conversely if they don’t have a faith in God, then it might be harder for them to accept treatment. If they don’t have (belief) as a resource to draw on, they might need additional strategies.”
    - http://www.nepsy.com/articles/leading-stories/study-belief-in-god-aids-treatment/


    Whether you believe in significance or not, it too has health benefits:
    Emerging research shows that meaning in life predicts better physical health outcomes. Greater meaning has been associated with a reduced risk of Alzheimer's disease,[132] reduced risk of heart attack among individuals with coronary heart disease,[133] reduced risk of stroke,[134] and increased longevity in both American and Japanese samples. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meaning_of_life#Physical_health
     
  13. Balerion Banned Banned

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    I'm not avoiding it. I didn't ask you about it. You said people find it religion what they don't find elsewhere. That is quite a broad statement, so I asked you elaborate. What you then provided was a list of supposed benefits of religious attendance. This is not a list of things that cannot be found elsewhere. There doesn't seem to be any studies regarding similar benefits and political activity, or other such communal behaviors.

    Yes it does. I just quoted it for you.



    I'd really like to see support for the claim that atheists would be highly unlikely to find treatment helpful. Please share.

    Yes, the old "Let's get them hooked on religion" ploy. No, sorry, that's not going to fly.

    Correlation does not equal causation, obviously. I find it hard to believe, for example, that believing in a higher power is going to impact your likelihood for developing Alzheimer's. But, yeah, let's just pretend that's the cause. I mean, it's easier and more comfortable to make the assumption that this is the case, so let's go with that, right?
     
  14. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Those may help explain the benefits of religious attendance (although it is not surprising that people with friends feel more satisfied), but that social network is still provided by a religious community, which has no immediate secular rival.

    Lim stresses that the sense of community that religion promotes is an important part of helping people to feel involved and worthwhile, and therefore may contribute to an overall sense of happiness. - http://healthland.time.com/2010/12/12/religions-secret-to-happiness-its-friends-not-faith/

    And a "study" based on responses on a dating website is hardly credible (as exaggeration is to be expected). Kind of trivial though. Fewer religious people equates to fewer churches and thus fewer opportunities to participate in that sort of community.


    None of this accounts for the benefits of belief itself, independent of attendance.
     
  15. Balerion Banned Banned

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    There are plenty of clubs and communities that exist without reference to religion, that no doubt provide the same benefits.

    Oh, so if it disagrees with your position, it's not a valid study? Interesting. Not surprising, of course, but interesting.

    Actually, it's not even that interesting.

    Believing your childhood pet has lived these past 40 years on a special farm probably has benefits, as well. No one questions the immediate benefit of delusion (well, to a degree).
     
  16. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Negative assertions cannot be demonstrated, but these results are compared to people who do not participate in religion, so if there is an equivalent alternative, most these people do not know of it either. Perhaps you would like to suggest a few...okay one.

    Oh, so now you change your tune on that study when it no longer seems to be saying things you like. If "increased expectations to gain from treatment" is correlated with "belief in God", it would seem to follow that atheist may be at a disadvantage by comparison.

    I do not know. Maybe you could look up the citations.
     
  17. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Do tell. Where are the studies that show the benefits of those? Are certain clubs better than others? Anything except a bare assertion?

    Hey, if you thing a dating website is valid science...

    And what study has shown any comparison to delusion or even non-religious beliefs?
     
  18. Balerion Banned Banned

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    8,596
    Are you incapable of directly answering questions? Let's try this again:

    Can you really not see the difference between "Believers get better results" and "Atheists won't get any results?"

    Of course you can. You're just trying to obfuscate the matter to avoid making a concession.

    Interesting that you haven't bothered.
     
  19. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Sorc already provided the studies showing the validity of the principle. Did you dismiss those studies in your sleep, or did you simply forget already?

    Hey, if you can give me a valid reason why self-reporting on a dating website is less valid than the self-reporting of people at psychiatric treatment facility...

    Religious beliefs are delusions.
     
  20. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    IMO conformity and integration into something(anything) bigger than oneself is the key. To your point about the religious community having no immediate secular rival, you would be right, they have had a huge head start in America. Did you note that in more secular societies, the religious and non religious were equally well off.
     
  21. Balerion Banned Banned

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    8,596
    Where does it say that?
     
  22. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Chess club, Glee club, Music and Drama clubs, Computer Clubs, et al... pretty much ANYTHING that gets kids out and about into social interaction... the benefits of this SHOULD be self evident...

    One could argue the point that, since there is no concrete evidence to support the claims made within, that Religion IS a delusion... and I'm someone who BELIEVES in Religion... for Christs sake Syne, stop intentionally being obtuse!
     
  23. quinnsong Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.livescience.com/18117-rel...countries.html

    From above link:

    According to the new study of almost 200,000 people in 11 European countries, people who are religious have higher self-esteem and better psychological adjustment than the non-religious only in countries where belief in religion is common. In more secular societies, the religious and the non-religious are equally well-off.

    "The results suggest that religiosity, albeit a potent force, confers benefits by riding on cultural values," study researcher Jochen Gebauer of Humboldt University in Berlin and colleagues wrote online Jan. 5 in the journal Psychological Science.
     

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