Why two mass attracts each other?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by hansda, Mar 19, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. 1100f Banned Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    807
    Sorry, but a potential of the form \(U(r)\ \alpha \ -{1\over r^3}\) is an attractive potential. The force that is generated by this sort of potential will be \({\bf F}\ \alpha\ -{{\bf r}\over r^5}\).
    It is the direction of the force that suggests that it is an attractive force, not the "additional time".
    As you quote from wiki: "the unique ATTRACTIVE force ..."
    The attractive force is attractive. This not a repulsive attractive force.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. eram Sciengineer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    I think he was referring to the "repulsive "centrifugal" potential energy" in the wiki.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. hansda Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    "Additional Time" is mentioned here. (see Perihelion precession of Mercury)
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. 1100f Banned Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    807
    No. In classical mechanics, the centrifugal force also exists. I remind you that if you solve the central force problem (only two-bodies interraction), when you write the equations of motion in spherical coordinates you get the following results:
    1. From the equation in the angular coordinates you get that the motion is in a plane and you also get the Kepler law of area (which comes in fact from conservation of angular momentum).
    2. The radial equation contains the repulsive centrifugal part. The radial equation is like a 1 dimensional problem with the potential given by an "effective potential" which is the original potential and the repulsive part given by the centrifugal part. If your potential is of the form \(-{1\over r}\) or \(r^2\) .i.e only r to the power -1 (gravitation or attractive Coulomb) or r to the power 2 (3D isotropic harmonic oscillator), and only in those two cases the solution are closed orbits. There is no precession and no "Additional time". If your potential contains a part which is \(r^n\) with \(n\neq -1,2\) then there will be a precession.

    In the Schwarzchild problem, the Einstein equation gives you the metric from which you can solve the equation of motion, and the solution is as Markus said. However, in the weak field approximation, the equation of motion in the radial coordinate is like in the non relativistic equation with an addition term which is equivalent to an attractive force (see my earlier post). This term gives the "additional time" and the precession.

    Or maybe, due to an extra attractive force, there is a precession so that the orbit is complete after some rotaion of its major axis, so that the orbit is longer than without the precession so you get an additional time. So that in fact the additional time suggests an attractive effect
     
  8. IncogNegro Banned Banned

    Messages:
    210
    I like to think it happens because negative values force them to group together.
     
  9. eram Sciengineer Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,877
    Do you realize that no one can understand what you're saying?
     
  10. Markus Hanke Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    381
    You have answered your own question; the precession is account for perfectly by GR, which is a purely geometric theory. There are no forces involved.
    It is actually fairly ridiculous that you are telling me I made a "very wrong statement" - tell me, have you ever actually done, or even seen, the Mercury perihelion precession calculation in GR ? If not, what do you base your above statement on, exactly ?

    No ! If you must rely on quotations, then at least quote it right - it says energy, not force.
     
  11. ash64449 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Ask To Marcus. He knows them very well.. He is an expert in GR.(SR too!!!) I just know that it can explain.. That's all. I don't know that math.





    Well,I thought Your question was Why Gravity was MAINLY attractive. Right?

    Does taking larger time always correspond to repulsive effect? Sorry. I don't know much about precession. But I thought your question was why gravity was 'mainly attractive'.
     
  12. IncogNegro Banned Banned

    Messages:
    210
    Short answer. Yes. I work mostly on a subconscious level of intelligence.
     
  13. Markus Hanke Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    381
    Due to the presence of a cosmological constant. This is described by the Friedmann-Lemaitre-Robertson-Walker metric, a cosmological solution to the field equations.
    This does not, however, have any bearing on the attraction between gravitationally bound bodies, which is described by a different class of solutions to the EFEs.
     
  14. ash64449 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Cosmological Constant?

    I don't know much about GR. But i would like to ask a doubt. I have heard that Einstein has got through his field equations that universe had a natural tendency to expand. But he thought that the universe was static. So to make the universe appear static,I think he added the cosmological constant. And then Fredmann proved that universe was indeed expanding..

    Anything wrong?

    NOTE: I don't know much about GR Math.. So no need to paste any sort of equations.
     
  15. IncogNegro Banned Banned

    Messages:
    210
    That explained the cosmological constant better than I've ever heard.
     
  16. ash64449 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    795
    Sorry,i didn't understand. Can you elaborate so that i can understand? It is a request.
     
  17. rr6 Banned Banned

    Messages:
    635
    <OUT<Perception >IN< Perception >OUT>

    Again, sometimes we have sensoral perceptions of extended moments-of-time and senses are related to our biological chemistry. If certain aspects of our nervous system chemistry interactions are accelerated, may be cause of extended time sensations or no time sensations.

    At speed-of-radiation, time is said not to exist, or be perceived as existent and is said to be a constant relative to all observers and their various speeds.

    That is indeed a strange phenomena. It appears to me that there are some phase changing occurrances. Gravitational spacetime/gravitons > EMRadiation/photons > Plasma/Gas/vapor( less associative > liguid/fluid( more associative ) > ice/solid( more asssociative ) > neutron star( more associative ) > black hole( maximum association ).


    However, is there a phase-changing between gravity/gravitons > photons > and our electron related chemistry? Obviously there is because we do not see the connections between gravity and those electrons except via GRelativity mathematics.


    So the metaphysically mathematical shape/pattern of the auto affects its molecular air-flow. So is it purely a metaphysical geometrical shape/pattern that affects teh physical/energy we call mass? I don't think so.

    Bosnic force--ex;

    1) two fermionic quarks( mass ) ergo bosonic energy/physical

    2) EMradiation( photon/massless )---ergo bosonic energy/physical

    Gravitational spacetime;

    1) quasi-physical/energy,

    2) metaphysical geometry ergo shape/pattern.

    If mass did not attract we would not exist. The why is related one or more of the above i.e.there is force connection and not just geometrical shape/pattern.


    r6
     
  18. Markus Hanke Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    381
    You are correct that it would expand even without cosmological constant; however, what we observe is that it expands at an accelerating rate, and that necessitates the presence of the constant.
     
  19. Markus Hanke Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    381
    @rr6 : Incomprehensible gibberish.
     
  20. hansda Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    See here for "perihelion precession of planets". Consider this quote from the link:
    Here we can see that "perihelion precession of planets" is due "interplanetary gravitational interactions". These "interplanetary gravitational interactions" are "attractive forces" from planetary point of view. These "interplanetary gravitational interactions" can be considered as "repulsive" from "the Sun" point of view.

    Now consider the "perihelion precession of Mercury". Here the planet Mercury is undergoing additional precession. This "additional precession" of planet Mercury is not due to any "interplanetary gravitational interactions" but due to the "interaction with the Sun". So, this "additional precession" of planet Mercury(being in the similar sense with other planetary precessions) also can be considered as "repulsive" from the "Sun point of view".
     
  21. hansda Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    I think you haven't yet got the point. See my earlier post #717. I explained there as to why "perihelion precession of Mercury" should be considered as "repulsive" from "the Sun" point of view.
     
  22. hansda Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,424
    Gravity is mostly attractive but it can be repulsive also.

    See my post #717. I explained there, how gravity can be repulsive also.
     
  23. 1100f Banned Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    807
    You explained nothing. You said that the attraction of the other planets on mercury is repulsive from the sun pov so you conclude that the attractipn from the sun is repulsive.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page