And just exactly how did it become pegged with the label "flying saucer?" Yeah, Uh-huh! I'll let you discover THAT for yourself!
You ignoring the actuality of the case does not make me dishonest and despicable. You have no idea whatsoever happened in Roswell, do you? You think you inventing the facts as you go makes you honest and me dishonest? The reports are very clear. Who is "They?" Read Only gave you a hint, above.
So your saying that the newspaper got confused between a flying saucer object and a weather balloon Oh please
Not at all. Ah, well, it's a lost cause. You managed to get real close to the truth and then shot off on a vector.
I see so the truth is that a flying saucer did in fact go down at Roswell and that the military and therefore the government covered it up
Once again - not at all. I was still talking about your little assignment to discover the origin of the term "flying saucer." I wouldn't touch the stuff you just wrote with a 10-foot pole and your hand.
Look in 1947 the shape is what it is, that's like saying you confuse the shape of a balloon with a food plate!!! That is simply not possible , unless you have some sort of psychosis Of course you wouldn't because it flies( no pun intended ) in what you believe
There is no other way to put it than "River is loving denial." The information has been handed to you, free of charge and at the expense of others time. Project Mogul was what went down in Roswell and it matches perfectly. But you ignore the actual evidence in order to make claims with no evidence. You're actively choosing to remain ignorant and frankly, it boggles my mind. More-so when you claim it's us that is doing what you're doing. We have evidence; you don't. So guess where that leaves us?
Since you are too lazy to find the info for yourself, I've gone ahead and gotten it for you. "Disc-shaped flying objects have been interpreted as being sporadically recorded since the Middle Ages, the first highly publicized sighting by Kenneth Arnold on June 24, 1947, resulted in the creation of the term by U.S. newspapers." That quotation was taken from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_saucer So you see, it was the PRESS that coined the phrase "flying saucer" - not the people who SAW the object in 1947. Which shows you to be completely wrong OR a LIAR!
Neverfly - Far more intelligent people than you or I accept that this subject is real so why is it that you dismiss it in the way you do? Your arrogance is breathtaking. To my mind it has to be one of the following. a) Simple ignorance of the subject (which in my experience is almost always the case when it comes to sceptics such as yourself) b) Cognitive dissonance Sceptics say that there is no evidence for the existence of high strangeness craft in our atmosphere. I would contend that this depends on what your definition of the word evidence is. People like you spout the usual crap about eye witness testimony being useless because people cannot be trusted to report accurately what they have witnessed blah blah blah. Although this may be true in general it does not take into account the following. The overwhelming history of such testimony from people from all walks of live who have witnessed these things in broad daylight and up close. That fact that so many of these reports have been multiple witness sightings. The fact that these things have been tracked as solid objects from both ground and airbourne radar at the same time as the witness reports. The fact that these objects very often exhibit speeds an maneuverability that human technology does not possess. The fact that excellent ground trace cases do exist where hard evidence of apparently solid objects having landed has backed up the witness testimony. The fact that many people have been injured (or even worse) by coming into close contact with such objects. The huge amount of photographic evidence which now exists of objects which have never been identified. The vast amount of video (plus cine film) footage which now exists of extremely strange aerial phenomena. The vast amount of government documents that have been released regarding incidents that cannot be explained in any conventional way. The testimony and whistle blowing from ex military personel and others who say that they know that the UFO subject is 100% real. Are they all lying? You will say that the above does not constitute evidence but I say it does by sheer weight of probability alone. You people are nothing more than deluded deniers who stick your heads in the sand, your hands over your ears and scream no, no, no, I will simply not accept the idea that there may be a non human intelligence present here on earth. Many do not agree with you, and as I said, many of these people are far more intelligent than you are so what makes you so sure that you are right? This subject is the biggest mystery currently facing mankind and there may well come a day when you will have to admit that you were 100% wrong. For now, just keep repeating to yourself over and over that there is no evidence so that you can sleep soundly. Oh, and by the way, get your facts straight. We do not know for certain that the Roswell incident was caused by a balloon like you say. All we know is that that is what the latest military explanation happens to be. Do you think that there is no possibilty that they may be lying? If you do then you're more deluded than I thought. Also, you state that "claims and stories and most of those crumble to bits when checked out to verify". Have you ever heard of the Condon Report by any chance?
Spadge, far more Marmots believe that dirt is made out of pixie dust than you or I, so why is it that you can dismiss it the way you do? See? Making bold claims with no evidence to support it is very easy. And still absurd. Well, here's the deal. You have no idea how intelligent I am. Nor have you any idea how knowledgeable I am. I know a hell of a lot, actually, about Project Mogul. So, I'm far more qualified then you are and am more than willing to demonstrate this if you'd like to buckle down to a real debate on Project Mogul and Roswell. Nope, and if you wanna put up and examine the evidence- We can test this claim hardcore and fervently. This isn't a puppy race, kiddo, I'm the real deal. Well, yeah, if we count bits of fluff and plastic bags- then you can claim you have evidence. Sorry, but re-defining the word is nonsense. Evidence is evidence, not whatever you want it to be just to strengthen your position with weak evidence. Evidence is based on credibility and merit. You're ignoring (Which you would do) one problem with your "facts," here: "Unidentified" does not mean "Identified as Alien Spacecraft." Considering that most of those radar reports came in during the Cold War and declined as the impetus for espionage and nuclear weaponry fear also declined, it's more than probable that espionage is what was unidentified than little green men. This "fact" is indeed false. Most witness testimony had no basis to compare actual maneuverability and in many cases where the U.F.O. was identified (Eventually) it turned out to be something that was not aircraft nor "nothing" but rather ordinary mundane things like a flock of birds which can shift in ways an aircraft cannot quite easily. Just because a witness failed to identify what they were seeing does not mean they are credible as witnesses of Alien Visitation. Show this "hard evidence." Blurry blobs of bugs, plastic bags and the like- yes, very compelling... I managed to record a very fascinating sun dog series a few years ago. Unfortunately for your camp, I knew what I was looking at. False, your "editorial" that they cannot be explained in any conventional way is misleading. I know of only three supposed witnesses and all of them were unable to identify what they saw. So who are you talking about? True. Because it's mostly crap with a sensationalist spin on it bordering heavily on flat out lying (Yes, I just called you a liar, which is what happens when you misrepresent and distort "facts" to promote your agenda.) It only says that you gathered a bunch of crap, sprayed rose perfume on it and vomited it out onto this thread. Probabilities nothing. LOL And you called me arrogant... pot, meet kettle. Your failure to provide actual evidence instead of fluff does not equate to deniers of genuine evidence. The fact that I am far more intelligent than you or them. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Ok, not really, it's that the lack of evidence for alien visitation speaks far more loudly than your raucous claims. I'd sleep soundly just fine if they were proven to be real. Frankly, I know Giraffes are shown to be real. It doesn't interrupt my sleep knowing giraffes are out there somewhere. Your fallacy of projecting more falsehoods to make it appear as though your opposition speaks out of ignorance and fear is absurd and you're better off trying to stick to "facts." You upped the challenge and I accepted, so Let's Get To It. Start showing your Strong Supportive Evidence and quite psychoanalyzing. Yes, because unlike your witnesses, they are lying. Except one little problem- The Recovered Physical Evidence. Didn't think about that, did ya? No, you're the ignorant one, here and as I said, I know something on this topic. Sure there is. But it's not their word I'm taking. It's the compelling evidence- something you need to figure out what the composition of is. Edit to add: You added a question about the Condon Committee:
And so we begin: Project Mogul and the Roswell Incident This will be Image heavy for the first couple of posts or so. What we will examine: Probable Flight path of Mogul Persons involved in Project Mogul Persons involved at crash site Official and media reports Substantial physical evidence recovered at crash site, including the tape used that was manufactured by a toy company bearing floral print (Claimed by UFOlogists to have been alien hieroglyphics.) As stated: Image heavy: View attachment 5947 Probable Mogul Flight Path View attachment 5948 View attachment 5949 Recovered Mogul Radar Reflectors and foils View attachment 5950 Long Text to follow when I have a moment to get organized and type it all out.
Project Mogul Information New! 2012 Gen. Ramey's solo balloon too little and in too good shape to be Mogul balloon Experiments by engineer Robert Galganski and former Project Mogul engineer Charles Moore show rapid deterioration of neoprene weather balloon material when exposed to sunlight.* Galganski showed the neoprene darkening and stiffening in only 5 hours.* Moore's many experiments showed the new milky white balloons deteriorating to brittle, black, tattered, ash-like* pieces within 2 to 3 weeks.* Yet according to the Mogul proponents, the balloon Ramey displayed was collected a full month after the alleged Mogul flight.* It is darkened but still seemingly mostly intact, has a mottled appearance with many light patches instead of completely black, and has many rounded folds and pleats giving it an appearance of still having rubberlike pliability instead of being brittle.* Thus the photos taken illustrate a slightly used neoprene balloon, not one sitting in the hot New Mexico sun for a month. Also there is very little balloon material there.* My measurements indicate it would fit in a shoebox.* It is probably the solo balloon Ramey said it was.* Yet the alleged Mogul would have consisted of at least two dozen such balloons.* Ramey's single balloon of recent origin alone practically disproves that a Mogul from the previous month was recovered.* Ramey's single balloon was instead substituted for whatever was actually found, as his chief of staff, Gen. Thomas Dubose and Roswell intelligence officer Jesse Marcel said was the case. Gen. Ramey's "hexagon" description proves cover-up Gen. Roger Ramey and one of his intelligence officers told the press and FBI that the crash object in Ramey's office was "hexagonal" in shape.* Only assembled, intact radar targets might resemble hexagons, and only when viewed from restricted angles.* It was impossible for Ramey to deduce such a shape from the flattened, torn-up radar target in his office.* Thus the "hexagonal" description must have been scripted for Ramey beforehand by somebody with highly specialized knowledge about radar targets, likely some branch of military counterintelligence deliberately plotting to use the radar targets to debunk Roswell and the flying saucers.* In addition, Ramey was also quoted saying that when he finally went to take a look at the "box-kite"/radar target supposedly in his office at the time, it was "about 25 feet in diameter," a ridiculous description of what was actually later photographed (the radar targets were only 4 feet across).* This and other evidence indicates the flight from Roswell hadn't even arrived yet; Ramey appears to have been improvising and stalling until it did. How To Construct A Radar Target A primer on how the Mogul-style radar targets were put together.* Goes well with previous essay on what the radar targets really looked like. This will eventually be part of a larger section on an analysis of the Fort Worth photos, and how they actually show the remains of a singular radar target and weather balloon, not a multi-balloon, multi-target Mogul.* The broken up radar target in the photos is what Gen. Ramey tried to sell as a "flying disk", as did the military in a followup debunking campaign.* Debunkers to this very day are still trying to claim that a radar target was somehow confused by Roswell personnel as a "flying disk." * But Gen. Ramey wasn't confused at all in his teletype message, referring to the crash object as a "DISC", while the story they would put out for the public would be of "WEATHER BALLOONS" and radar targets.* Furthermore Ramey's telegram said they were shipping something "IN THE 'DISC'".* As you shall see from this primer, the radar targets were sheets of foil/paper (same stuff used to wrap candy bars and chewing gum) stretched over a balsa wood kite frame and had no "insides" with anything to ship. New! 2008* Where Did Moguls Crash? Skeptics claim that because Project Mogul was also in New Mexico, that increases the probability that it accounts for the debris field at the Foster Ranch.* But actual Mogul records show that prevailing winds almost always took the balloons well away from the debris field area.* Graphical plots of over 50 recorded flights and their crash sites demonstrate that only one flight possibly crashed within 40 miles of the ranch (Flight #38, Nov. 4, 1947) and maybe 2 more (Flight #10, July 5 & Flight #17, Sept. 10 ,1947) flew in the general direction and came within ~20 miles (but flew on* to crash in other states).* This demonstrates that it was actually quite improbable that any Mogul would have ended up at the Foster Ranch crash site.* See also the "The Phony Balloon Trajectory" below, a fraudulent attempt to try to place a probably nonexistent flight at the ranch to "explain" the Roswell crash. Project Mogul and UFOs The people who launched the Project Mogul balloons had many fascinating, high-quality UFO sightings of their own, including, ironically, Charles Moore, who is trying so hard to debunk Roswell in the present-day.* But Moore wasn't alone.* E.g., a document of an August 1947 sighting is enclosed, where the Mogul person described seeing a high-speed object while watching a balloon/radar target launch through binoculars.* He said he had other "unexplainable" sightings as well while optically tracking their balloons.* Also mentioned is a Mogul radar case of hovering objects at an altitude of 200 miles!* Many other sightings by balloon personnel are detailed. The Phony Balloon Trajectory In 1997, former Project Mogul engineer Charles Moore claimed that winds for Mogul Flight #4 would have been "exactly" right and that he had "calculated" the trajectory of Flight #4, taking it "exactly" to the Foster Ranch crash site.* Sounds impressive, until you find out what he really did to get his alleged lost Mogul balloon up to the ranch, including hoaxing his own model by secretly changing numbers and calculating improperly.* Any use of correct math and reasonable assumptions (instead of Moore's extreme ones) has the balloons missing the ranch by a very wide margin.* Moore's trajectory is actually highly improbable.* Includes a lengthy discussion and many graphs, tables, and illustrations.* An alternate theory of the ultimate fate of the hypothetical "Flight #4" (which a diary says was actually "canceled" on account of cloudy weather) is presented and how it might tie in to the Roswell case, but not in the way one might think.* If there had been a balloon flight of some kind, it probably came down well northeast of the Foster Ranch and north of Roswell, and may have been used by the military to coach rancher Mack Brazel in what to say during a press conference they soon marched him to in Roswell.
River, Copy/Pasting bold assertions from UFOlogist websites won't lend you much credence. Running a google search on Robert Galganski yields no hits on a real person outside of UFO Support websites, for example. I have no idea if that's even a real person or not. I have found no evidence that the supposed tests were done that these claims say --outside of UFO websites. Nothing, nada, zilch. Just claims, nothing more. When I asked another believer about this once, he pointed out that it had all been covered up. Of course, it had... That you provide no credible or verifiable references sets off my bullshitometer. Lastly, it's well known that UFO believers have been accusing Moore of 'hoaxing' his figures for the projected flight of mogul 4 since the '90's. New, 2012, eh? You guys can't even keep your figures straight. What we're left with is that the best you believers have to offer is that "a bunch of Mogul Balloons were used in the area or had crashed in the area, but none crashed specifically at the site outside of Roswell. Therefor- it must have been an alien spacecraft." Riiiight. The odds are much better that UFO believers are not above dishonesty. It's amazing, really, how in trying to show that it couldn't have been Mogul, how UFO believers had to admit that Mogul was operating near and at the same time, yet they claim it couldn't have been Mogul. And you accuse others of dishonesty. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You've hit on the heart of the matter. The UFO/alien nutters are perfectly free to make up and claim ANYTHING they want. And the playing field is far from level because those of us who are normal, intelligent people are limited by facts and solid evidence. That's why we can never win an argument against the nutters and their close cousins, the idiots.
Well, then, skeptics and deniers, let's look at it this way: what solid evidence do you have to refute, not the existence of but the visitation of, ET. And that's "evidence", not rationale or inference based on science.
The name government covers a huge population, only a few of know what this technology is, and the other departments like defense, have limited info in it depending on their power and position. A coverup is true, but what is the big question. Some departments are given BS to communicate or keep secret, so we get psuedo exposures claiming that the technology is from aliens. That is the lie too many gobble up because they have no scientific knowledge to explain what is witnessed or spoken about. The technology used with strange flying objects and weird life forms is as old as the hills and has been practiced by modern society in secret since about 1860, possibly earlier. The Nazis were responsible for developing the most recent technlogy. It should not be too long before it is used and exposed in general. Those who have been ignorant of it will get the shock of their lives, seeing things which are physically "impossible." The current world of science has remained undeveloped since about the 1900's due to a change in philosophy from creationism to atheism. Modern creationists are generally not aware of the technology either, they too will be sucked in to whatever transpires, and although some are aware of evil forces involved, they have no idea of the nature of matter and so falsley attribute UFO phenomenon solely to the occult. "Alternate matter" programmes are generally hidden under government departments not named under defense, and those names are changed from time to time. Don't ask for more details. The bottom line of the technology is that matter can be manipulated to operate in a different mode, producing different materials, including different forms of life, unfortunately. It is a bastardisation of nature. The physical laws we know are not all there is to matter, but try explaining that to any modern scientist. It is possible to understand how that tech works, but almost impossible to explain, at least on this forum, due to preconceived ideas of matter.
