Is Government Debt Immoral?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Michael, May 26, 2012.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Joe, you are the most partisan person on these boards. Name the top 10 Republicans you admire. Name 10 Republicans you've voted for. Probably none. You vote Democrap and others vote Rethuglican. This keeps the people under the illusion they're effecting change - which of course they are not.

    Why hasn't Corzine been questioned Joe? You say he hasn't been found guilty of anything - yeah, because he has not been questioned! I could rob a bank and if the police and prosecutor never questioned me and I never go to trial, yeah, I'd appear innocent. Corzone had a little show meeting with Congress. Both GOP and DEM pretended to do something - they did nothing. It's just a show for the Cattle. Nothing else. All Corzine said was: I didn't mean to blah blah blah.... He had Clinton's old Lawyer as an advisor.

    We're talking $1.2 Billion dollars stolen from farmers - some who are not able to keep farm hands hired or their farms fully running.

    Corzine is Obama's biggest campaign fund contributor. Obama is his bitch. So, go ahead and vote for Obama Joe. If it lets you sleep better thinking there's two opposing sides and "your" side is in "fighting for you" then yeah, go on ahead and live in that fantasy world. The truth is both sides are extremely corrupt and will continue to fleece the American public until we're so poor and destitute it'll be us trying to escape to South America and Asia. That wall will be there to keep us IN not keep them out.

    Actually, it's already happening. Many people are leaving. A trail I blazed long ago. One of those Facebook "founders" just gave up his Citizenship and moved to Singapore over taxes. I heard Obama and Boehner refer to him as a Traitor for not paying his taxes. For not being good Cattle. Those are the same Taxes Mitt refuses to pay. Or GE gets away with not paying. Oh, but one of the Cattle does this and it leaks... all the better to demagogue the Cattle.

    One wonders what these two dipshit demagogues (Obama and Boehner) think of the Founding Fathers? After all, they similarly gave up English Citizenship over the exact same thing - Taxes! Taxes they felt were unfair and and that they refused to pay. To the point of Revolutionary War. Yes Joe, that's right, that's how far most American's have climbed into their anuses - to the point of unknowingly referring to the Founding Fathers of this country as Traitors and Terrorists. But, most Americans are too stupid to know any better. Their role are Cattle and thus doesn't involve much thinking on their part. Just vote GOP or DEM and get back in your stall.


    Don't worry though, we have a couple more generations to sacrifice to the Banks before it's said and done - so I'm sure there's still time for you to get in and get yours and still avoid most of the homeless fathers and prostitute mothers and daughters living on the street - - if you're quick.



    As an aside, did we agree that QE4/5 was evidence of a Bernanke's failed monetary policy and immoral monetary system? Oh, that's right, you never agree to anything that might pop that fantasy world you live in. The first step to Change Joe, is admitting there's a serious problem and accepting substantial life change

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    Yeah, Geithner gave China direct access to buy US Bonds! HAAAA!!! What backs the value of those Bonds Joe? Oh yeah - your child's future Labor with interest! Talk about disgusting and sick! But hey, you can tell your children is was worth it because before they were born or when they were little Dear Leader "Saved the World" from "living in the Stone Age" and we all have to thank Dear Leader and work 80 hours a week and yes, it is too bad they can't afford children of their own, must to pay 70% of their income in tax to the Chinese and can not afford to go to University..... but hey, that's OK because Dear Leader keeps us safe at night and it's Terrorous and Traitorous to question Him. He protects our Liberty.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LOL, that is pretty funny coming from you Michael.

    I don't see the relevance, but I voted for Nixon, Reagan, McCain (before he prostrated himself at the feet of George II). I even coughed up some money for them. I also liked Ross Perot (Independent) before he went gaga. And I voted for H. W. Bush, not because I liked him or thought well of him, but I thought Bush Sr. would be better than Dukakis, the Democrat in the race. I like Bob Dole personally, but he was ill equiped to be POTUS. There are others I admire but they were before my time. And there are more, who never ran for office that I admire. Does that make you feel better?

    The facts are Michael that elections do matter. And it does matter who is elected. Gore, while lacking in many areas, was certainly better than George II. Exercising our right to vote is certainly much better than not voting. There is no guarantee that the candidate we elect will do what we want him/her to do. But it is certainly better than doing nothing.

    Yes Corzine was questioned, rather publicly at that, in front of Congress. Yet again Michael you are on the wrong side of reality. Unfortunately for people like you and your fellows, we don’t throw people in jail in this country unless there is evidence they did something illegal. We don't make a habit of throwing people in jail just because.

    Is there a crime here? If so, where is the evidence of culpability?

    Well then you should be able to prove these claims. So let's see it.

    Where is your evidence that Obama made those claims? People here a lot, but little if any of the stuff you hear in your end of the blogosphere is true.

    You have a knack for making illogical comparisons and illogical arguments mostly based on false premises. One Obama didn't call that man a traitor. Two, if you knew your Amerian history, you would know that the American Revolution was not about taxes. And three, the gentleman you are refering to made his billions in the US and was accused of renouncing his citizenship to avoid paying taxes on those American earned dollars. The founding fathers had nothing against taxes. In fact that was one of the first things they did, evoke taxation to pay the nations bills. And President Washington led an army to to collect taxes. Unfortunatley Michael, you are chronically on the wrong side of the facts and reality.

    WOW.


    The first step Michael is to acknowledge reality. Evidence of a failed economy, is a failed economy, an economy that is shrinking. And that is very clearly not the case in the US. Again, reality just does not support your notions. If you think the economy is failing, then show the evidence. But you cannot, because your claims are not consistent with reality and the numbers. The US economy has been growing at 2-3 percent since 2009. Additionally, just because an economy is fine today, it does not mean it will always be fine. Things happen that can adversely affect the economy for which the Fed nor anyone else can prevent (e.g. earthquakes and other natural disasters). And there are other externalities like financial crisis in Europe or Asia that could adversely affect our economy and for which we have no direct control.


    You are on the wrong side of reality again Michael. US Treasuries are sold at auction. You seem to think there is something mystical about US Treasuries. And there is not. US Treasuries are backed by the Full Faith and Credit of the US government. It is just that simple. There are two things that affect the value of US bonds, interest rates the purchasing power of the dollar. And China owns about 8 percent of outstanding US Treasuries - hardly an overwhelming amount.

    In addition, because the US can control the value of its currency, it can reduce the value of its debt at any time and for any reason. US debt is not unprecedented nor unmanageable.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2012
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Joe, lets make this clear - HE HAS NOT BEEN QUESTIONED by the prosecutor.

    Jesus F-ing Christ, and people wonder why Washington is a useless shit-hole swamp.

    That little show in front of a "Congressional Panel" was just that - A SHOW. It means NOTHING. Do you get that? Sitting in front of a panel of Congressmen and claiming "I didn't intend to loose a bunch of my costumer's money" is NOT the same as being charged in a criminal investigation, hauled down to a court of Law and properly interviewed by the prosecutor.

    Do you get that Joe?

    Probably not. AND you know why you don't. Because he's on the side of Obama and so you roll right over. Which is why shit will continue to go from shit to worse than shit.


    Why hasn't he been interviewed by the prosecutor? Tell me that. AND do you think it has ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the FACT that he donated the MOST MONEY to Obama's campaign?

    GET it in your head - YOU are Cattle. Tax Cattle to be milked of your labor. Each time they sell another Bond to bail out their buddies on Wallstreet - that's your children and grand-children's labor that was sold.

    AND it's sick, immoral and disgusting. One side pretends WMD exist and the other promises free bullshit while BOTH SIDES fleece the American public.

    So, you tell me why Corzine isn't in Jail right now. Why hasn't he been questioned by the prosecutor? Tell me that. Why hasn't Obama done a damn thing? Oh, that's because HE'S as corrupt as the rest of them - maybe worse.


    I told Arthur and I'll tell you: SLAP ON THE WRIST AT BEST.
    If that much.

    When your children ask you why America is such a SHIT HOLE in the future tell them because people where too f*cking stupid to do anything other than vote for whichever douche was on their "Team" either Democrap or Rethuglican.

    People get the government they deserve and I'm mighty happy to see Obama come in for 4 more years - just to watch him and the other idiots make an even bigger mess of the shit hole Washington already is.
     
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Why don't you explain what: ....are backed by the Full Faith and Credit of the US government is supposed to mean. Just what the f*ck does that flowery bullshit mean? Come on Joe, tell me. Where's the money. Show me the money. Break it down. Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean squat.

    The fact is BONDS are just what they say they are BONDS. They're Bonds on the future labor of American children and the unborn. It's immoral and SICK to sell someone else's labor - particularly your own children's labor. It's CHILDREN labor that backs the sale of those bonds. There's your "FULL FAITH and CREDIT" of the US Government. Debt Slavery at it's finest.

    Tell that to your grandchildren when they're sharing a tin of cat food with grandpa Joe.

    Yeah, tell that to retiree's eating god damn cat food.

    Tell then Joe, why is CHINA the ONLY country to have a direct line of credit to buy US Bonds? As a matter of fact, why even sell Bonds at all? I mean, you just said " the US can control the value of its currency, it can reduce the value of its debt at any time and for any reason". Then why print Bonds Joe? Tell me that.


    Bonds are EVIL and IMMORAL. Not that anyone here would know immorality if it slapped them in the face.
     
  8. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    :bugeye:

    Bonds have been around forever. It's just a way to raise bread. No big deal. They're not so great for an investor unless he's just trying to save the value of his own dough. That's one reason foreigners like US bonds. Their own money isn't as safe. So they come here, because we're as safe as it gets. We still have the largest economy in the world. As for full faith and credit, that just means you get paid when the bond comes due; the US is self-insured; there's nothing bigger to insure the treasury with.

    Hell, I'd sell bonds if they'd let me. Gimme a million now, and I'll add 25¢ a month to your balance, and in about 100 years or so you'll get your mill back plus some spare change. Don't worry about you, just think of how patriotic you'll feel letting me handle you greenbacks for you.

    Meanwhile I'm going to apply that money to things I really need. A tomahawk missile upgrade. A study on internet policing. A 30 foot wall on the Rio Grande. A million more prison beds. You know - stuff that matters.

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  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    OK, we are making progress. So now you admit that he Corzine was questioned, which is a complete reversal of your previous position. Now you are trying to draw a distinction between the questioning from a congressional investigative committee and a federal prosecutor. In reality, there really isn't much difference between the two. It would be illegal for Corzine to lie to either.

    Congressional committee questioning, as it was with Corzine, is a public event and the event was documented and made public. Questioning by a federal prosecutor or the FBI is always a private event and the results are kept secret until trial – should there be a trial.

    Which brings me to my next question, how do you know Corzine was not questioned by a federal prosecutor since these things are kept secret until trial - should there even be a trial?

    It was a congressional committee for starters and just because it did not produce the results you wanted, it does not follow that it was a "show".

    That is your bias, but that does not mean it is true. Like I have challenged you many times before on this issue, if you have proof of illegal activity by Corzine let's see it.

    Like I have asked you before, where is the evidence that he was not interviewed by a federal prosecutor? Where is the evidence that Corzine donated the "most money" to President Obama's campaign?

    So now you are back to calling people who disagree with your biases names.

    Well if you have proof of any of the above, now is the time to produce it. And as I have told you before, we don't just throw people in jail because you say they should be in jail. It takes evidence of illegal activity to throw someone in jail.

    The US has problems; the biggest is corruption in Washington. But we will never solve that problem chasing illusions and pursuing every distraction fed to us by the special interests that profit mightily from the current setup.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    If you don’t know what the “full faith and credit” means Michael, I suggest you look it up.
    Nice demagoguery, US bonds are future obligations of the US government obviously. That does not translate to bondage and indenture of the American citizen. That is you taking liberty with the truth and reality again Michael. The Federal Reserve can repurchase US Treasuries at any time by printing money and expanding the money supply. And the Federal Reserve can do this if the economy is growing, thereby increasing the demand for a larger money supply and without inflating the currency.
    First the US government is not extending credit to China. China can bid directly on US debt. There is no harm in that. If China should want to sell US debt, it sells it in the aftermarket just like everyone else. Just because China buys US debt and can participate directly in US debt auctions, it does not mean China is expanding it''s holding of US debt. US debt has various maturities. US debt matures each and every month. So to keep a certian level of exposure requires constant purchasing of debt, if you have a diversified debt portfolio.


    Well that is your opinion. It is not based on evidence or reason. But it is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    That's rich coming from you Joe. You just spent half a page defending one of the most corrupt politicians in America. I almost wish it were China for at least there we could be assured they'd have dragged that fat lying bastard from his million dollar fraud mansion and shot him in the head as an example to others. And I personally think it'll probably get to that by the end - which is why we're seeing the Nanny State gearing up for Police State. You could look into History and find hundreds, if not thousands, of similar examples.



    So, as I told Arthur: MARK my words. A slap on the hand AT BEST. I doubt he'll even get that much. He steals over $1.2 BILLION and isn't even questioned outside of a CONgressional Reality Show where his response is: I didn't intend to loose.... Oh, and Joe, if he isn't questioned and isn't brought to court - how the hell do you expect to get that evidence? But you don't really care. Corzine is bankrolling Obama and that's ALL you care about. You don't give two flying shits about justice. Hell, listening to you defend this scum-bag I can't help but wonder if it isn't a case of Stockholm syndrome.
     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't mind if YOU sell bonds. Bonds sold by a company are almost the same as selling stock. Except you're acting as a lender and not buying a portion of the company.

    I'm referring to when the State sells Bonds. Those bonds ARE ONLY backed up by future labor. The labor of children and the unborn. That's stealing. That's debt-slavery. That's immoral.
     
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    The Full Faith and Credit Clause—Article IV, Section 1, of the U.S. Constitution
    So, Joe, why don't you tell me how that in any way is related to the BONDS the US government sells to China. I asked you where the value is IN the bonds. What is it the Chinese are buying with their money? You stated "US Bonds are backed by the The Full Faith and Credit of the United States". So what? Where's the money. Show me the money Joe

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    I more simpler terms, this means these bonds are the future labor and productivity of the next generations of Americans - who will work FOR the Chinese Central Bank and other Bond holders EVEN THOUGH these Americans had NO DEMOCRATIC VOICE in the determination of how their labor / productivity was to be spend by the proceeding generation. THAT IS IMMORAL. It's called STEALING.

    Yeah, I understand it's hard to understand because you were raised to believe steal is moral. I'm here to tell you, no Joe, stealing is immoral. It may be legal, but it is immoral. Don't confuse the two concepts

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    So, you can use all the flowery bullshit phrases you'd like, at the end of the day you support selling your own children's labor. That's sick and immoral and disgusting :S
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Don't worry Joe, you're going to get your wish. QE4,5 and 6 are soon to come. Then you can tell the old and the poor who have lost everything and are eating cat food all about your theory on expanding the money supply.
     
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    China Allowed Direct Access to U.S. Treasury

    Welcome to a brave new world. Hey iceaura, maybe you WILL get to eat for a few more years.... of course the next generation will live in perpetual debt-servitude. But, that doesn't bother YOU now does it? Nope. F*ck-em.
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Clinton did more than just gut Glass-Steagall, he also let that dipshit Greenspan cut interest rates low enough to ignite bubble after bubble. NAFTA was just a cherry on top. But don't worry Obama has hired pretty much ALL of Clinton's old economic advisers. They don't give two shits about you or the rest of us. We are tax-Cattle to them. Got that? I don't think you do. You will though.

    HB 61 - Cat Food Retirement Plan



    I'm sorry to pop your fantasy bubble but there are no Sky Daddies or Big Brothers looking out for you. And those so-called "Economic Experts" don't know shit. Most did not see the economic collapse coming until it happened (as the minutes released from "THE" Federal Reserve testify to.

    I wonder what people like Corzine think of how their Tax-Cattle moo around to his defense. I imagine he's having a good fat-crackling laugh in his New York Mansion while his maids eat Cat Food. When your children are there to wipe his children's arse for them, thank Obama for doing nothing. Yeah, I bet he's having a real good laugh. Obama was one of the best Politicians his money could buy. Actually, given the price of cat food, retiree's will be lucky to have a can of cat food. My guess is they'll be eating shit. Right about the time Obama goes on his $250,000 dollar per speech circuit - like Clinton. Yeah, that arse hole gets paid $250,000 in 'speaking' fees to BANKERS for a 30 minute 'speech'. As if that dipshit would know ANYTHING worth a quarter of million dollars to a banker.

    It's called PAY BACK!
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  17. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    As usual Michael, you are misrepresenting the facts again. If you have and proofs, now is the time to show it. But we both know you don't have proofs, you never do.

    I have not defended Corzine. I have asked you several times to back up your claims against Corzine and you have yet to produce a shred of evidence to prove your claims. We don't throw people in jail just because you think they should be tossed into jail. We are a nation of laws Michael.

    I again ask you to produce evidence of your claims against President Obama and Corzine. Additionally you are contradicting yourself from post to post. First Corzine was not questioned, then you admit he was and now you are back to denying that Corzine was questioned. You are flipping faster than Etech a Sketch Romney.
     
  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I have no idea why you are dragging this into the discussion. Are you playing dumb?

    http://www.investorwords.com/2109/full_faith_and_credit.html

    Why don't you buy a few Treasuries and see the money? The US government has never failed to pay its debts.

    http://www.investorwords.com/2109/full_faith_and_credit.html

    No it is not called stealing. That is you playing fast and loose with the facts again. I suggest you go back and read my previous posts on this subject matter. Treasuries are repaid with tax revenues and monetary expansions resulting from economic growth.

    The issue is not wither stealing is immoral or not, because clearly it is. This is you setting up a straw man and redefining the word stealing.

    No Michael, I support resonsible fiscal management. This is you setting up yet antoher straw man and playing fast and loose with reality.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Get it in your head, a CONgressional SHOW is not discovery. They asked this dipshit a couple questions to which he replied "I did not intend to blah blah blah". This little arse hole used Clinton's Lawyer.
    So, one last time, NO one is gathering any evidence. THAT IS the point! You claim the GOP are corrupt and then turn a blind-eye to one of the largest thefts in US History. Over $1.2 BILLION dollars stolen from freaken Farmers. What does that say about YOUR bias Joe? You didn't let that dipshit Bush and Cheney off this easily, yet here you are bending over and taking it for Corruptzine.


    You are what I mean when I say leading the Cattle around by the nose. You don't want to see Corzine investigated because he's Obama's biggest campaign contributor. He's on "your" team. Well, I'm sorry to break it to you but Obama doesn't give two flying shits about you or your family. He'll send your children off to die in a pointless wars just as quick as the next dipshit. So, put down the Hopium Pipe and pull your head out. They are ALL corrupt!
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    That depends on what you mean by "paying". If by 'paying' you mean 'printing' then sure - the US government doesn't miss a payment.


    Now, I'm going to ask once again: When The People's Bank of China buys $1.2 TRILLION dollars of BONDS - just what the hell is backing the value in those bonds. They certainly didn't pay blood and sweat for some piece of paper saying IOU. They're buying SOMETHING. So, what is THAT?


    It's your children's future labor Joe. THAT is what backs the BOND. That's where the word 'Bond' comes from. Do you know where the word "bondservant" comes from? It means SERF or SLAVE. It's a person who is obligated to service with labor without wages. That's what you're making your own children in to. Debt-Slaves. Why you feel so good about doing so, is beyond me.

    Whatever you're getting, I hope it lets you sleep well at night when you're stepping over the homeless fathers and mothers and their children begging on the street. You tell them all about "The US Government has never missed a Payment!" "Oh, I see you're eating Cat Food, did you know Human Food in the White Can is actually cheaper albeit a bit inferior. I'd never feed the shit to my animals, but it should do you well enough".
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Lastly, it IS stealing when you sell another person's labor without their consent. AND that is immoral. Legality doesn't change water into wine. Immoral is Immoral.
     
  22. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Is Michael on his immorality kick again?

    Where's the facepalm smiley?
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes he is.
    Michael, if he could be indulged to speak in the third person, feels he is living in the 1600s trying to explain to a bunch of Slave Owner that Slavery is immoral. The Slave Owners just can't seem to get it into their thick skulls that the entire society is based on an immoral institution. They use arguments like: It's always been this way. Whose going to pick the cotton? What? You want the poor to freeze and starve!? What? You think these poor Slaves are going to look after themselves - that's crazy talk-in.

    Crazy ole' Michael and his idiotic emancipation talk again *face palm*

    Yup, I asked Crazy ole' Michael about it the other day and he said he thought in the future space-machines would fly around the earth using invisible voices to talk to other machines on earth that will live on dinosaur-juice as 'energy' and these will replace slaves and they will pick the crops! Haa! He's lucky the Priest didn't hear him!

    You know what I told him? Put down the Opium and smoke some Hopium! Obama 2012!

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