Justice and Security: Neighborhood Watch Captain Attacks, Kills Unarmed Teenager

Check out nnwi.com, the National Neighborhood Watch Institute. Neighborhood Watch volunteers are not vigilantes. The country would never have tolerated that and the movement would have collapsed. (Remember the more recent "militia" movement? Yeah right. Nobody does!) The point is that these people do not have police training or police uniforms so they have neither the skills nor the cachet of authority to stop and apprehend people. As far as any of us private citizens are concerned, if one of these jokers got in our face we would call for help and follow that with a call to 911. Unfortunately Martin is a kid--and a black kid at that, in the Neanderthal part of the USA--and he let his anger get the better of him. When two citizens get in a quarrel it's not unusual that it might turn into physical violence. But if one of them pulls a gun to resolve the quarrel, then he's gone over the line. Zimmerman relinquished his claim on civilization and should be treated accordingly.

It doesn't matter if he has a permit to conceal a weapon or a permit to raise hogs: a Neighborhood Watch volunteer on duty is not allowed by the rules of the organization to A) carry a gun and B) go after suspects. Their duty is to call the police, period.

It doesn't matter who threw the first punch. Zimmerman was in the wrong to start with, by harassing a private citizen with no authority to do so. If you get in somebody's face by, in essence, impersonating a police officer and he gets angry and hits you, you deserve whatever you get.

You claim to be an American but I can tell that you've never had the experience of serving on a jury. Eyewitness testimony is worthless. Its reliability is less than 50%. One of the juries I was on heard testimony from two eyewitnesses, neither of whom had any reason to lie, and their stories were almost completely opposite.

Are you sure you're really an American? It's "guilty until proven innocent." We all know that from watching TV, if nothing else.

No, there's no law against one citizen pursuing another. But if you stop him and harass him, when the cops show up to sort it out you'd better have some damn good evidence that you personally saw him commit a crime and were making a "citizen's arrest." Otherwise the law is on his side.

That's a kind way to put it. I'd say he was a paranoid racist who thought that Afro-American kids should not be allowed out on the streets after dark. A typical Southerner from the old days; unfortunately they're not extinct.

Absolutely not. If Zimmerman was committing a crime of harassing a citizen without good cause, then any death that occurred in the ensuing quarrel is automatically his fault, regardless of who escalated it. U.S. law is plain as day on that count.

Doesn't matter. He broke the law by detaining a citizen without authority. Neighborhood Watch volunteers are specifically denied the authority to act as police officers.

Not to my satisfaction it's not. That's the way people "prevented crime in their neighborhoods" in the Wild West in the frontier days. We've put great effort into changing the USA into a civilized nation in which the citizens do not go around shooting each other. Zimmerman is an affront to our national character, a throwback to the Bad Old Days. If he lived on an isolated lot out in the middle of the Arizona desert and saw someone he didn't recognize walking toward his house, then it would not be unreasonable to subject him to some questioning. And everybody in Arizona has a gun, one of the reasons I was so happy to escape from that shit-hole and go off to college. But he lives in a town in Florida which, for all my hyperbole about its citizens still hanging onto their Confederate money, has a police force to handle such matters.

I'm not sure I've made any assumptions other than the rather reasonable one that he was not simply acting in the role of a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, for the very good reason that this is not how Neighborhood Watch volunteers are indoctrinated and trained to act. I make no assumptions about who hit whom first or about Martin's frame of mind after being accosted by a white man on a dark street in the Deep South.

Doesn't matter. If I were young and strong and (apparently) a good fighter, and some weird-looking loser started hassling me for the well-known crime in that part of the country known as walking while black, I'd probably slam his ugly face into the pavement too.

I wish I had been there (at a discrete distance of course) to cheer him on. Zimmerman is exactly the kind of American we don't need in our gene pool: a hothead with a gun and no respect for rules.

This is the sort of thing that you can expect will happen to you eventually if you make a practice of going around being an asshole. The whole point of Neighborhood Watch is that they do not want their people walking around being assholes or we'll run their organization out of town.

Sure, now that he's at a disadvantage he'll be happy to see a police car pull up. Where was that respect for the Rule of Law when he thought he had an "uppity Nigger" to toy with?

No. You keep pretending that the exact sequence of events matters. All that matters is that Zimmerman had no authority to accost Martin so he was breaking the law. Anything that happened as the result of that criminal act is, by legal definition, his fault.

In the eyes of the law, if you commit a crime and someone dies, you're guilty. It doesn't matter if you merely scared the guy and he had a heart attack, or just fainted and hit his head on a rock. You're still a murderer. If you watched "Harry's Law" on TV, in a recent episode they dealt with the doctrine of felony murder.

No, I do not like guns. I don't allow them in my house and I don't trust people who own them. But my "slobbering Neanderthal" epithet was directed solely at Zimmerman. He clearly grabbed his gun, hopped in his car, and went looking for trouble. If he was merely doing his duty as a Neighborhood Watch volunteer he would have been following their rules and sitting at his upstairs window with a pair of binoculars and a CB radio.

Please review the laws on felony murder. For that matter, if someone dies while you're committing a misdemeanor you're still at fault, although it will not be Murder One. As I said, he could get off with manslaughter or some other less draconian charge. I think America would probably walk away from this story with a little grumbling if he is only convicted of some form of wrongful death. That will restore our faith in our own justice system. Otherwise I'll continue to say that Grant was an idiot for taking the South back.

He hassled the kid. What did he expect him to do, lie down on the ground meekly and whine, "Please kick me, Massa, I'se so sorry for violating the Sunset Law and being out after dark when you'all can't see me because I'se so dark."

But the suspect was under no obligation to act that way. What would you do if some total stranger came up to you in the dark with a bad attitude? A butt-ugly one at that; I know that's not his fault but it certainly doesn't help with the ol' "first impresson" and he needs to take it into account when hatching his criminal plots.

Martin had no way of knowing how this was going to play out. Again, I have trouble believing that you're an American because you seem to have absolutely no understanding of race relations in small towns in the South. It would not be unreasonable for Martin to literally fear for his life in such a situation.

Again, I'd really like to see how you'd react in such an incident, even with your (presumably) white skin.

These are reasonable inferences, not assumptions. As for the character assassination, let's see what the press digs up on this guy before we decide who wins this bet. He may turn out to be like that kid in Arizona who shot the congresswoman: a time bomb waiting to go off, and nobody bothered to do anything about it.

[You don't even seem to be familiar with American slang, much less race relations.]

No. He's a slobbering Neanderthal because he does these things. It's an insult, not a demographic category. Forgive me if I didn't make that clear.

No, I only hate the roommate who pulled out his gun and shot my cat in 1963. Oh yeah, and those brave National Guardsmen who murdered the kids at Kent State in 1970. Oh yeah and the brave infantrymen who killed the civilians in Iraq just for fun. Well okay, I guess I don't have a high opinion of anyone who carries a gun. It's just a giant phallic symbol and it's used to perform a form of rape.

Despite the occasional senseless high-profile police shooting (such as the Prince George's County sheriff's SWAT team breaking down the wrong door and shooting two dogs in the back who were running away) they actually do not often shoot people and even less often people who did not themselves shoot first. Cops are well-trained in psychology, criminology and the use of their weapons. These are the people whom Zimmerman should have called to deal with Trayvon Martin. It was his failure to follow the rules which bound him that resulted in the death.

But soldiers, that's a much different matter. Soldiers are brainwashed into believing that violence can sometimes be a legitimate way to resolve a dispute. They're brainwashed into following orders rather than using their own judgment in something as monumentally important as the decision to kill another human being. They're even brainwashed into believing that anyone their officers identify as our enemy is less than human so they have free rein to piss on their corpses and rape their daughters.

So no, I have little respect for soldiers. I grieve for their families when they die. But then I catch myself and remember that this is, finally, an all-volunteer army and those families raised those kids to want to become paid professional killers and so some of them get what they signed up for.

Hardly a surprise, except for the fact that you simply don't come across as American. There are too many things about this country that you don't know.

I don't understand the question. But the last time the USA was attacked by a foreign nation was Pearl Harbor. So every undeclared war our soldiers have fought in since then starting with Korea--all the wars during my lifetime--was unconstitutional and immoral. Our politicians dress them up and give them clever names like "the war on terror." As if we don't understand that terror is not a country so declaring a war on terror is as stupid as declaring a war on drugs--which has taken a comparable number of casualties, but since they're all in Mexico we don't give a shit.

 

In other words, you just can't answer it without sounding racist again.

I don't believe he was killed anywhere near Zimmerman's car.

Huh?

We know from Zimmerman and from the 911 call he made that he was on foot. Are you now trying to change Zimmerman's story for him?

You do realise Zimmerman and his 911 call corroborate her claim, yes?

So why are you making things up again?

And again, for the one with the reading comprehension..

The officer who investigated the shooting advised that Zimmerman did not identify himself or explain why he was following Martin. Can you tell the difference? At no time did I say that Zimmerman did not speak to Martin at all.

So stop lying.

_________________________________________

Well that part gels in with the 911 call Zimmerman made and his claim, that he had chased Martin and Martin was trying to get away from him.

You can't know that.

There are only two people who know the answer to that and one of them is dead. There are no witnesses, except the girlfriend on the phone, to who initiated the actual contact. And she didn't hear who made the first bodily contact either.

 

But you just thought you'd throw my colour into the fray, you know, just to show you aren't racist.

Zimmerman chased Martin on foot. We know that because he told the 911 operator that he was chasing him and on the 911 call, you can hear him huffing as he's running after Martin.

Zimmerman claimed that he was walking back to his car, after supposedly giving up the chase, when Martin then attacked him.

Now, Martin's girlfriend's testimony clouds that.

You asked, and I quote:

To which I responded and advised you that one of the undisputed facts of this case is that Zimmerman got out of his car, after giving the 911 dispatcher and address of where his car was located, and then took after Martin on foot. So no, he did not get out of his car next to Martin. He stopped his car, gave an address to the 911 dispatcher and then pretty much told the dispatcher that he was chasing after him.

Do you understand now?

Which is why I asked you, why are you trying to change the facts to suit your narrative of the events of this case?

No one is disputing that Zimmerman chased him on foot after he vacated his vehicle. So why are you now trying to make things up and ask if it is possible that he jumped out of his car next to Martin?

But something even more interesting in that transcript.. You posted a link earlier:

Note the bit I just highlighted..

Now look at what he says in the transcript to the 911 dispatcher:

 

You don't even know or recognise what you write, do you?

Martin was shot in a laneway, between houses, away from Zimmerman's car. It was in the laneway that the altercation took place, we know this because 911 calls reporting the altercation and the screaming all said it was coming from the laneway where Martin was killed. That is not in dispute.

I mean Christ on a stick dude, if you cannot bother knowing the facts of the case or even reading and comprehending it, don't speculate because it serves your purpose to do so.

Your comments were racist Neverfly.

I am not alone in recognising it or commenting on it.

The only person who has derailed this thread is you. You have derailed it because you have lied through your teeth, made up stories and then tried to pass them off as facts. You also derailed it because you don't even know the facts of the case and tried to pass them off as "hypotheticals", when it is clear you do not understand what that word even means.

Do you not understand that telling a coloured person that she may find a subject of "touchy" because she is apparently "black" is racist in and of itself? That is effectively what you have done in this thread. It is insulting and very very racist and offensive.

When you say that it would have been "logical for the black kid" to act in an illogical manner and approach a stranger because he is black and looked suspicious to said stranger is racist. That is why I and others have commented on your racism. Because you have posted in a manner that is racist.

Your definition of racism is exactly what you tried to pull in this thread. You tried to tell me that because I am apparently "black", that I cannot really be objective in this thread.. That is racist. You also applied a standard to "the black kid" because he is black and because he was seen as being someone suspicious because he is black. That is racist.

For you to dare be offended at offending others, really, cry me a river. Your actions in this thread have been absolutely disgusting and deplorable. You are nothing but a racist liar. You have lied consistently throughout your participation in this thread and you have also made very questionable racist comments about not only the victim, but also to a fellow member and moderator. If you find that offensive, then yes, maybe it is better that you leave this thread before you put a bigger foot in your mouth.

You not only queried why he was walking down the street, you also attempted to cast doubt that he even belonged there and about whether he was really up to something or not. I don't need to lie about you Neverfly. You lie enough to make yourself out to be a liar.

Really, coming from you, that is hilarious.

I have sought a review of this thread and your participation in it. Seeing that I am not the only one who has found you to be dishonest and to lie repeatedly.. in other words, it's not everyone else but you. It actually is you.

You have rebutted nothing and the only thing you have tried to do is to blame the victim, repeatedly and then lied to do so.