Electric cars are a pipe dream

I can no longer edit post 2062 but just want to add: "Lamborghini sales may advance from last year’s 1,302 on the back of the Aventador LP 700-4, which will hit showrooms in October and is sold out for 18 months, Winkelmann said. ..."From: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...ion-proof-as-ultra-luxury-sells-out-cars.html

SUMMARY: No pain for the super rich yet. I guess that comes after the revolution when heads are on pikes.

 

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How is this thread still alive?

 

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I had posted this and would like to update it.

Today Andrea Rossi released videos showing his plant almost complete, and a video from sept 7th showing a Low Energy Nuclear Reaction Device (LENR), operating unassisted. The plant is scheduled to go on line at the end of October to provide final proof for the masses.

Here is the video for those interested. This technology will make all cars steam or electric within 10 years. That's 600 million less smog producing cars on the road.

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264361.ece
and

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3264362.ece

 

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What is the benefit of electric cars anyway?

The don't reduce CO2 it is simply produced elsewhere.


Here are a couple of claims from a site promoting electric cars

http://www.sdge.com/environment/evBenefits.shtml

Lower Overall Emissions

The overall emissions associated with using EVs are typically far less than the emissions from their combustion-powered counterparts.

No Pollutant Emissions

EVs emit no pollutant from the tailpipe, so they’re cleaner for the environment and better for everyone’s respiratory health.

Of course those are dubious claims IMO, note it says 'tail pipe' omitting to mention the huge fossil fuel powered power stations.

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I have seen no independently produced statistics from 'real life' as opposed to theory that show electric cars uses less fossil fuel or produce less pollution and CO2 that normal cars.

 

Well yes and no.

Our electrical production is not all fossil fuel based and so on average we produce 1.34 lbs of CO2 per kWh or electricity.

http://205.254.135.24/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2report.html#electric

Gasoline produces 19.4 lbs of CO2 per gallon burned.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/420f05001.htm

So consider the Nissan LEAF.

If has a 24 kWh battery pack and gets an average of 73 miles per full charge.

If the charging is 80% efficient (reasonable assumption based on actual user experience)

http://www.plugincars.com/economy-efficiency-nissan-leaf-my-experience-after-3-months.html

Then we get this:

A full charge on the 24 kWh battery pack consumes 28.8 kWh of electricity which results in the production of 38.6 lbs of CO2.

At 73 miles per full charge that's 0.53 lbs of CO2 per mile for an EV like the LEAF.

http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-leaf-finally-gets-official-epa-label-106486.html

Now cars get different mileage, but at 19.4 lbs of CO2 per gallon, any car getting better than 36 MPG (average) will do better than the LEAF.

That's about 7 car models.

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/overall-high.htm

But it's true, a conventional Hybrid like the Prius gets 49 mpg or 0.40 lbs CO2 per mile which is about 25% better than the LEAF.

As shown above, that statement is true.
Most cars will produce more emissions.

Well since a high proportion of our cars are driven in congested areas, moving the emissions to large point sources outside the city and emitted from tall stacks DOES contribute to better urban air quality and it is much easier to work on cleaning up these large point sources than it is to keep millions of car engines running cleanly. Additionally, our new point sources are getting ever cleaner and will eventually produce fewer lbs of CO2 per kWh (Wind and Solar for instance).

Arthur

 

Wouldn't be true for me. I have a solar power system capable of giving me about 50 miles of driving a day.

 

While that may be true, using you solar energy in you car, just makes you house cause more coal to be burned for its energy need - sounds like "wash" to me.

 

Not if you, like most people, want to use your car during the day.

 

Au contraire! I have both a grid interactive and a battery backed system, so I can either:

1) go off-grid, charge batteries during the day, then transfer that charge at night to the car

2) remain on-grid, use the grid as a big battery, charge the car at night then feed the grid during the day

Option 2) is actually more helpful for the grid overall, because I am supplying power during times of high demand and drawing it back during periods of low demand. (And it's more useful to me since it makes my batteries last a lot longer.)

 

I generate far more than I use. No net coal burned for me. Indeed, I also reduce the coal burned for the people near me, since I am supplying a good chunk of their power as well.

 

Well good for you. What is the noon clear day power output of your solar cells? How much did they cost you if you did not do all the instalation your self? What is the power company paying your per KWH sent back into the line? How does that compare to what they charge you at night (and during the stormy overcast day, if you have time of day rates.)

 

9.4kW rated (STC DC) 8.5kW DC out most days, 7.5kW AC out after inverter. Average about 50kWhr a day production. We use about 10.

I don't know how much it cost, since we bought the house with it.

On our old house (now a rental) we have a 2.5kW system. It cost me about $9000 and I did about half of it myself.

Right now nothing; best we can do is zero out. Eventually (within the month actually) they will start paying avoided cost, which is between 2 and 5 cents a kilowatt-hour (i.e. the same they pay to their generators.)

We're not on TOU metering. Since we don't go above baseline we pay 12-14 cents/kwhr.

 

As you have production 5 times more than you use you should look into the old "Edison Battery" (Ni-Fe). You already own the inverter for home use and could recharge your EV, plus an EV for you neighbor(s), getting paid several times more than the power company pays your in "avoidance costs" they get. Never pay the electric company a dime again!

Main disadvantage would not apply to one sitting in your basement or garage. (Heavy and don't work well when really cold.) They are almost impossible to damage - even by dead shorts! Some were used for 70 years with little loss of performance! (A new Edison Battery would be part of your estate to leave to your children.) I don't think any are made in the US anymore but you can order one here: http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe {Especially if you live on the US Pacific coast. Ocean shipping from China would be less than land shipping from port to mid west city.}
and read more about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery

PS you could apply for "carbon credit" payments too!

BTW they actually stored more KWH / pound than the LEAD ACID batteries of Edison's day - So he used them in electric cars.

 

@ Billvon

That is awesome! Who here has gone completely electric never mind using solar power on top. Kudos.

I feel shame

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MCP stock has dropped 18.4% already today after being downgraded by JP Morgan with new lower "target price" set.

The "way out of the money" puts I bought have more than doubled in value. {I told of buying them near end of post here: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2814913&postcount=78}

"...Molycorp currently produces rare earth products from stockpiled concentrate. The company is in the process of a $781 million expansion and modernization of its Mountain Pass mine and processing facilities in California. ..." From: https://investing.schwab.com/secure...ocks/news.asp&doc=1329-S1E78J0NE-1&symbol=MCP

 

http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/21/edison2s-very-light-car-is-now-very-electric-too/

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" Known as the eVLC, this "supremely aerodynamic" concept car is powered by a 10-kWh battery pack and, believe it or not, can comfortably seat four passengers."

 

Everyone knows it's technically possible. Want to know how to make a small fortune in the EV industry? Start out with a large fortune.

 

From their site: Air Conditioning: Conductive Cooling

What this really means is they used a block of ice with air blown over it.

LOL

http://www.edison2.com/tech-specs/

 

"... Ford Motor Co. (F) may make electric cars with its partner in China as the auto industry moves toward producing more fuel-efficient vehicles, Chief Executive Officer Alan Mulally said. ...

Mulally, who was in China to attend the groundbreaking ceremony of an engine transmission plant at its venture with Changan Automobile Group, didn’t provide a schedule for building electric cars.

Rivals Daimler AG (DAI) and General Motors Co. (GM) have announced plans to add alternative-energy vehicles in China as the country, the world’s largest polluter, seeks to reduce emissions. The government aims to have 1 million electric- powered vehicles on the road by 2015, according to the Ministry of Science. ..."
From: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...s-in-china-with-partner-ceo-mulally-says.html

Billy T comment: I bet the US has less than 10% of that on the road by 2015 start. In another Email, I read today told China will spend 2 trillion yuan on "green energy" in this 5 year plan. (It just started a few months ago.)

Later by edit - I found that link about 2 trillion "green yuan":

"... TIANJIN - The Chinese government will invest 2 trillion yuan ($313 billion) in the area of green economy and low-carbon development in the next five years, cutting 16 percent of per-unit GDP energy consumption compared to 2010, a senior official from China's top economic planner said on Saturday. …

During the Eleventh Five-Year Plan period (2006-10), energy consumption per-unit GDP had decreased by 19.1 percent. And carbon dioxide emission was cut by around 1.5 billion tons.

By the end of 2015, per-unit-GDP energy consumption of China will drop by 16 percent over 2010, and the average input-output ratio for resources is expected to jump by 15 percent, Xie stressed.

From: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2011-09/25/content_13787036.htm

 

More on post 2077 -Rare Earth demand and prices are falling as EVs switch to induction instead of permanent magnet motors (and for other reasons). See:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...toyota-develops-alternatives-commodities.html