Mental health stigma

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Asguard, Aug 22, 2011.

  1. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Ever wonder if those being "kind" to him are the reason he now can't even see what a mollusc he's been here?

    One simple rule.
    As soon as someone gets support from any quarter, they're less likely to consider that they might be wrong about something.

    Fuck being kind. The notion has been reincarnated as something exceedingly ugly.
     
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  3. Gustav Banned Banned

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  5. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    What, I don't get credit for bringing it up first because you don't like me much?

    I demand recognition!.

    *... or I'll get all depressed.
     
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  7. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    It is far more complicated than software versus wetware, actually.
    It is neither, and both.

    Things that happen to you can precipitate an organic brain-state one was already predisposed to.

    Schizophrenia...is considered a very strongly-heritable condition... and yet:
    http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Schizophrenia_-_Twin_studies

    So, What causes schizophrenia? we don't know...but generally it's going to be a mix of nature and nurture.
    It may even be an early vitamin D deficiency...

    Speaking of changes resulting from the environment...people with PTSD have been found to have variance in genetic expression...which strongly suggest trauma actually "switches" how genes express themselves:

    http://www.usnews.com/mobile/articles_mobile/genetic-changes-show-up-in-people-with-ptsd

    However...regarding what Signal keeps saying...
    http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/healthday/649181.html
    Similarly...if one scans the brains of people who take meds versus the untreated, you'll generally see less deterioration in the medded brain.

    Now...regarding culture and mental health...and the interactions therof...

    This is precisely WHY I am dinking away at a sociology undergrad.

    Because taking a person in isolation and fixing that person while ignoring a screwed-up society (which will just screw them up again) does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

    East Asians apparently carry a genetic vulnerability to depression...but they have low rates of depression...
    The hypothesis put forward is that their collectivist culture evolved as a way to short-circuit that widespread genetic vulnerability to depression:

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2...es-culture-serotonin-and-a-side-of-pathogens/

    So...
    there is some manner of some control in some sufferers of mental illness.
    But the fact of the matter is, severity really varies. Like any other illness. It's not a standard-size straightjacket.

    If you're determined to ignore the scientific data I keep posting about the structural brain changes..
    If you are going to look at one data point I used, and take it entirely out of context...
    If you are going to post no links refuting me but feel free to be disrespectful to me anyway...

    Why, then you are fully worthy of of your place on my ignore list sir.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  8. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Because I already dealt with it a long time ago. I simply shared here to make a point...
     
  9. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    I've seen Asguard called a ghoul.
    The same person said that he, or his attitude, makes them physically sick.

    Most probably this goes back further than this thread and the preceding thread, but what can he have done to deserve such abuse?

    One thing which seems to be really bad, is for him to have said that he would rather be physically ill and happy, than healthy in body but not in mind.

    Is that so hard to understand?

    I have known a few people confined to wheelchairs who are content, on balance, with what life has given them. Of course, they would like to walk, but if I asked them whether they would prefer to be able to walk but at the same time be chronically depressed, I'm sure that they would stick with the status quo.


    Now. What else has he said that makes him such a target?
     
  10. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Alright...
    What I find frustrating...is to repeat over and over again, and present evidence...that depression, which I struggle with...and do put a good bit of effort into managing...

    Is not entirely under my control.


    Also trying to express that it is not just ouchie, but overwhelmingly awful a lot of the time these days.

    What I keep receiving from the skeptical camp is that this is really a personal failure on my part, entirely my choice to suffer.

    And I should just shut up now.

    I find this extremely frustrating.
    Invalidating is the precise word, but that's edging on psych field jargon.

    That may not be how it is intended...but if the above is not how it is intended...would you please make a better effort to express yourselves clearly?

    Bells was quite offended that he compared cancer to major depressive disorder...and I think comparing suffering at all...is just a bad idea, anyway.

    Comparing my own suffering though?
    Having a permanently bent left arm which hurt for about chronically off and on was and is easier to deal with than Major Depression...(BTW, it's an inch shorter than the other arm b/c of the bone chips the doc took out... and I can't pronate my hand...meaning I can't hold anything in my left palm... annoying...)
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  11. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Right. How many times have I said that some people are more disposed to it than others, now?

    And yet what? Was I talking about Schizophrenia?
    The answer is "no", so we'll move on to the next bit...

    Make sure you mix in a healthy dose of anthropology with that, or all you'll end up with is the ability to regurgitate current prevailing opinion. You'll also require the capability to observe objectively and figure things out for yourself.

    Correct. The unfortunate thing about this being that your view of what is wrong with society and mine do not appear to coincide.

    ... It's hard to figure out why you're so adamant about arguing with me. That's the second article you've posted which actually supports my position, rather than refuting it.

    So. Whats this then? Asians, according to this one, are genetically more susceptible to depression but have a lower incidence.

    Now think about it. Do the maths.
    Which factor has more influence? Culture, or genetic?

    If you really look at all the graphs posted here, all the articles linked, compare the incidences among differing cultural groups and then look at incidences prior to the last 50 years or so, the inescapable conclusion is that while genetics pay a part, it is rather small when compared to cultural and social influence. There is nothing you or anyone else has posted here which would refute that.

    You can italicise the "some" all you like, but the numbers speak for themselves. I'll ask you one more time:
    If you think it is so much a genetic condition as opposed to a mental state, then explain the sharp rise in the last few decades.
    An exponential explosion of bad genes amongst a very few cultures?

    Look at the relatively flat line prior to 1950 or so. There is your true incidence of depression and suicide. If you do the research, I'd guess you'd find the incidence was around the same as those cultures which are reported to have a "low" rate in modern times. Those would be real cases of genuine depression which would require medical intervention.
    Problem is, we have no way of knowing who is who anymore, do we?

    I have said all along (and let's not go too far into who is ignoring who here) that I am not saying it doesn't exist.
    What I am saying is that society has made it into a thing far more dangerous than it actually is.

    I never said it was.

    Which may or may not specifically relate to depression. What you're doing is taking research done on other mental condition and trying to apply it here.

    Having said that, I am not ignoring it. I simply haven't seen anything much to make me second guess my opinion on the matter.
    Look:
    So. We can do it ourselves, huh? We can change our own outlook on life?

    Well... gee. I'll ask again. Why are you arguing with me?

    Which one?

    I'm speaking from observation and experience. I have a certain confidence in my own opinions.

    Besides, I hardly need to post any links. You're doing my work for me.

    Go for it. Good luck getting better.
     
  12. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    I wouldn't know, you hit my ignore list in the last thread.

    :bawl: Aww...You know what they say opinions are like...everyone's got one.. They quite often stink...

    Because your opinion is entirely un-nuanced.

    So, you favor forcing collectivism on Westerners?
    (Thinks something about a lead balloon)

    Genetics play a part, culture plays a part, biology plays a part. This doesn't mean that the individual can magically pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, as you seem to think.
    You're reading the data...but through the filter of your preconceived bias that depression is something that can be overcome through changing the way one thinks alone.
    Mild depression...yeah. Maybe even moderate depression...Severe, recurring depression?
    Not likely.

    No, I would actually argue that a lot of it is due to social atomization causing depression. Also less physical activity, as physical activity sets endorphins loose.

    OTOH there's still organic factors that underlie what goes on in the brain, as with any other mental illness.

    Wataminute...Marquis.Did you actually just say completed suicides are fakers and didn't need psychiatric attention? Jeebus man, they offed themselves!


    I linked research on the brain changes involved in depression earlier in the farking thread.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Apparently you were too busy whaling on me to go back and read that bit.


    Sometimes. To some degree.
    Not always, in every degree.

    Because your view is entirely too absolutist.
    Uh-huh, you're on a science forum...and you know jolly well anecdote is not evidence.
    Yeah, you take evidence and oversimplify it, omit what absolutely does not support you points, then pat yourself on the back...watch for shoulder strain.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  13. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    It's not an isolated incident, no. After a while, you build up a "feel" for someone.

    No, it isn't. Unfortunately, though, this is not what he said. He said, and then reiterated, and tried to support with links, that having depression was as bad as having cancer.

    You paraphrased above to make it more acceptable to you. Good on ya. Don't expect me to fall for it.

    Oh for...
    How many times....

    Having cancer is not being "confined to a wheelchair". Going back to where all this started, Jani... is not "confined to a wheelchair". Has that not been said a half dozen times already?

    Besides which, I'll take the ability to walk and have depression. For me, fixing that when it occurs is like changing a tyre for you.
    I know how. Simple as that.
    Shame curing paraplegia isn't so simple, really.

    Don't care to look. The guys a self-pitying little weasel.
    Go look for yourself, if you care so much.
     
  14. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    As much as it pains me to agree with anything Marquis says, I think Western societies could use a small bit more community mindedness. I won't say collectivism because that's the wrong word - I certainly don't think what we need is a society where you can't move without having to consider what other people will think of you.

    But more civic mindedness would be really nice. What I see out the window doesn't seem to be a society any more - more like a competition where the fittest get what they like and everyone else can go hang.
     
  15. chimpkin C'mon, get happy! Registered Senior Member

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    Same here.
    I try to take care of other people in part for just this reason...I don't like a society where those who are in need aren't helped.

    Hopefully I'll pull myself together more and help more people later. As it is I get little kicks from helping people out with little stuff, makes me feel like my existence is justified.
    I was under the impression Marquis is one of those "pull yourself up by your own jockstrap" types though. All a personal failing of the sufferer.

    You know...it occurred to me.

    The whole point of this thread was to try to ameliorate stigma.
    It did not.
    Therefore I'd say it qualifies as a waste of time. I mean, All the stuff I rummaged up on fMRI's showing how the brain changes dependent on what type of psych illness you have?

    I already pretty much knew that...although I could have swore it was ventricular cavitation in depression, not frontal lobe deterioration. Hypothalamus shrinkage also. Schizophrenia, loss of gray matter throughout. Bipolar, deterioration of frontal cortex...
    And I just rattled that off, right?

    And because it does have familial and social factors that influence development...that does not then mean that the sufferer can control the course of their illness, any more than that person can control their society.

    Yes there are mental and therapeutic techniques to overcome some mental illnesses, some of the time...and they may or may not work.
    Medications may or may not work.
    Sometimes life serves you nuts.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  16. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Right. And so you come back now, presumably having taken me off this ignore list in the meantime, and decide to reply assuming you knew what I meant without actually having read any of it.
    Nice work. Intelligent stuff.
    Fairly commensurate logic I'd expect from those who'd rather stick their head in the sand than actually try to confront things.

    Surprising. I doubt even those who don't like me here would assume I was the one crying.

    I'm sure you're aware by now of my own opinion on what "they" say.
    I'll tell you what I say in response to that.

    You have your opinion.
    I have mine.
    One of us is right.
    The other is wrong.
    We are not both wrong simply because we both have opinions.

    So "they" are full of guano.
    Clear?

    And don't think I didn't notice your dodge.

    Which makes a difference how, exactly?
    I mean, it's quite apparent you haven't even thought about the ramifications to your own position of those articles you're posting.
    God forbid I'd expect you to understand nuance if I were to introduce it into my own posts.

    No. Your article concluded it had something to do with collectivism. While acknowledging that Asian societies in general are more collective than western, I did not come to the same conclusion.

    This does not mean that the data they used in coming to that conclusion is invalid.

    Want to bet on that, Sunshine? *smiles*.
    Know something, Chimp? The very reason you can't, is in no small part due to the attitude shown in what you wrote above.

    Errr... yes. Social and cultural factors, right?

    I'm getting rather impatient with you, you know.

    Actually.. no. I didn't.
    I said basically that the instances of genetically-influenced depression would be more accurately measured prior to the explosion of the last few decades.

    In fact... I didn't say anything like what you just wrote there.

    I might go look, later. Might have missed one.
    I'm expecting more of the same, though.
    Please surprise me.

    *laugfhs* You'll even back down from your own conclusions if it means you agree with me, won't you?

    Nope. It has far more to do with you not liking me much. Be honest now, lad.

    Of course it isn't. That's why I haven't made any anecdotes... and have come down rather hard on those who did.

    I'll tell you a little secret. Those guys who get themselves published? They formed opinions, first. that's how they knew what to write about so they could get published in the first place.
    (Don't tell anyone).

    ... seriously. Sciforums. This thread. A science forum?
    Heh.

    You mean, as opposed to you trying to deny whats in front of your face because it doesn't fit with your own view of yourself.

    I'll say it again. Culture and social influence have far more influence on instances of depression (and hence suicide) than pure genetic susceptibility does.

    Now. Sit down, take a deep breath, and tell me exactly how that is incorrect, given those articles you've posted.

    While you're at it, show me the parts of that you posted which "absolutely" does not support my points.

    Go ahead. I'm going down the shop; take your time.
     
  17. The Marquis Only want the best for Nigel Valued Senior Member

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    Set your mind at ease, lass.

    I didn't say anything of the sort.
     
  18. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    You missed out "moron".
    Essentially he just expressed a view that a mod took offence to so unpunishable abuse shall follow. So sayeth the great book of sciforums.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    I was once told by a mod that it doesn't matter if the person is what you call them, or if you are rightfully offended, an insult is still classed as flaming.
    I expect this will be ignored as I openly admit to rarely taking things seriously here for stated reasons, and I'm sure they label me "troll" as a somewhat convenient excuse. Coincidence I'm sure.
     
  19. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    So which is worse, having Cancer or Depression?
    Is he saying that one is worse than the other?
    And are you saying that one is better than the other?
    Is that the argument?

    It's ridiculous.
    It is like one of those stupid discussions children or drunk people engage in.

    Which would you choose? To lose your left arm and your right leg, or your right arm and your left leg?
    If some insane God or despot or fellow drunkard made you choose, I suppose you'd have to make a choice.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    Oh no, not at all. This has been going on for several weeks now.

    Then again, you are looking at just this one incident. Asguard has had it in for me for a while now and this is yet another go.

    Only this time, he not only misrepresented everything I said, he also lied.

    There comes a point where enough is enough and yes, push me hard enough, I will bite back.

    You have a problem with how I spoke to him, take it to admin.
     
  21. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Which Mod? I don't think any of these people are mods.
    Could very well be wrong.
    I'm not sure who are mods and who aren't.
    I know some of them of course. Trippy, Fraggle, JamesR, Alphanumeric.
    How many are there?
    Is there a list anywhere?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  22. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Had you taken the time to go back and read where all this is stemming from, you would have seen that Asguard started off by saying in the thread about "January" that people pity the parents more and how it happens to him. Then he commented that:

    Personally i would rather have cancer than have depression because at least people wouldnt act like its my fault.

    We were at that point talking about a child born with schizophrenia and in almost a permanent psychosis state. Apparently showing pity to her parents was like when people pitied his parents when he tried to kill himself.. Then the cancer comment.. Thus began the long journey which sees us here now.

    He started this thread on the premise that I disregarded depression and did not value it as an illness.. Why? Because I told him that a child born with schizophrenia could not really compare to someone with depression. Why? Because you can't compare diseases.. It's not a competition.

    Just as you can't compare cancer to depression or cancer to a heart attack for example. Each is bad in their own way.

    Now, apparently this is wrong.

    So Asguard began on his journey to tell me how he had been suffering from depression for 10 years and how that obviously makes him sicker than me, for example, because I'd had cancer and only depressed for what he assumed was 6 months. This is after constant reminders from me, that you cannot or should not compare illnesses. Each is bad in their own way. But no, he calls me childish.. And again misrepresents what I had said.

    I re-iterate again. At no time did I say that depression was not a debilitating illness and that it did not at times lead to suicide. Not once. What I did say was that this child could not compare to him because her illness is so much more different. This child has absolutely no choice or say in what she does or thinks..

    Yes, this has been going on for weeks and frankly, after being lied about and constantly misrepresented, I have had enough. Which has culminated in his latest posts, which yes, where he tells me that he has more "experience" with being sick. Because you know, it's like a fucking job interview or a competition.

    So maybe you may want to tell him that his argument is ridiculous. Be warned though, you may find yourself a target like I have been when he switches his gaze onto you.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2011
  23. Bells Staff Member

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    I am the mod of this forum.

    However, as soon as Asguard started this thread, I advised the admin and my fellow moderators that they would be reviewing this thread, and yes, myself as well.
     

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