Well, let's get the party started Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I've noticed that many people here are against vegetarian-based diet, and since this is a Science forum, I would like to hear some informed answers. Let's stick to anatomy for this thread, I mean comparative anatomy. I don't want to hear: "I like the taste of it", or "fuck off veggie bastard", or "cavemen ate meat". I mean let's stick to biology and science. It is not a secret that you can tell what is the natural diet of an animal from his anatomy, so I would like to hear what do you think of this video, and the following summary taken from The comparative anatomy of eating? Facial Muscles CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape HERBIVORE: Well-developed OMNIVORE: Reduced HUMAN: Well-developed Jaw Type CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded HERBIVORE: Expanded angle OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded HUMAN: Expanded angle Jaw Joint Location CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars Jaw Motion CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back Major Jaw Muscles CARNIVORE: Temporalis HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids OMNIVORE: Temporalis HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids Mouth Opening vs. Head Size CARNIVORE: Large HERBIVORE: Small OMNIVORE: Large HUMAN: Small Teeth: Incisors CARNIVORE: Short and pointed HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped OMNIVORE: Short and pointed HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped Teeth: Canines CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved HUMAN: Short and blunted Teeth: Molars CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps Chewing CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary Saliva CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes Stomach Type CARNIVORE: Simple HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers OMNIVORE: Simple HUMAN: Simple Stomach Acidity CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach Stomach Capacity CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract Length of Small Intestine CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length Colon CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth HUMAN: Long, sacculated Liver CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A Kidney CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine Nails CARNIVORE: Sharp claws HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves OMNIVORE: Sharp claws HUMAN: Flattened nails
Wouldn't it help your case better if you gave information from a reliable and factual source? http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1b.shtml
One would assume we started evolving eating a chimplike diet...mostly plants, plus bugs and small animals...then we learned to hunt and cook. I'm vegan, but I'm drinking a soy protein smoothie ATM...not exactly a natural food substance...
I know the arguments, protein for brain development, B complex vitamins, iron, comparison to chimps, etc. ; nothing that can be countered with adding a few chicken unfertilized eggs to our diet. But I want to know the arguments against the comparison made in the OP. For example: - Is is true that our large intestine is one of the largest in the animal kingdom? (Being that a characteristic of a natural herbivore). And I would like to hear the argument against that with our bare hands, we are not able to kill a cow. Or that meat would essentially eventually poison us if we would eat it without coking it. Or that a human child would not start killing animals and eating meat if it's given the choice (eating meat is a learned behavior, or only possible under extreme circumstances). Taking in consideration that humans developed tools and fire only thousands of years ago, does it really counter-act with millions of years of evolution? And what about heart disease, colon cancer and other digestive disorders that have been linked to eating meat. I’m not arguing that our ancestors in some point in evolution had to start eating meat given the extreme circumstances of our environment, and without it we probably wouldn’t have survived. But is it really necessary to survive and evolve today? Given the fact that eating meat is one of the major causes of environment destruction and one of the most counter-productive diets in sustainable development, in this increasingly over populated world, I think we should really ask ourselves those questions.
Then why did you not use this as the OP instead of presenting spurious, un-scientific rubbish as your argument?
That can't be said for certain without population studies...but my suspicion is that we *mostly* don't. Meaning some people may. Before I decide that for certain, I'd want to see more longitudinal studies on vegans. I think the China study followed people who still ate a tiny bit of meat, but very little due to poverty...and they were a lot healthier. That doesn't rule out some individuals needing meat.
We started out as non-obligate vegetarians, as many animals do (i.e. a vegetarian diet with some eggs, bugs and whatnot thrown in.) Then, a few million years back, we gained sufficient intelligence and social ability that we learned to hunt. We then slowly began evolving to be true omnivores, animals that could eat both with good results. Then we became intelligent enough to protect our weaker members. We also started cooking. This threw things out of whack, because we stopped evolving to a large degree ("survival of the fittest" works only if you let the less fit die) and we also lost the need to have many of the adaptations that true omnivores have (like the ability to rip up meat with our teeth, and strong enough stomach acids to break down raw skin and tendon.) So now our anatomy supports a primarily vegetarian diet, with some beginnings of adaptation towards being omnivores. We are certainly not carnivores in the biological sense of the word; anyone who doubts this should try chasing down a cow and eating it. (With no tools, just your hands and teeth.) We're also not 100% vegetarians any more since we cannot synthesize all the vitamins we need from plants alone. This causes us problems since modern mostly-meat diets throws our lipid and calorie profiles way out of whack, and also causes issues since our mouths/throats are not designed for meat. Even cooked meat causes us problems; "choking on meat" is one of the more common ways to die here in the US.
Some of the arguments fail because they try to treat humans like other animals. So we cannot be omnivores because our teeth are not like other omnivore teeth. This is total bulldust. Humans are omnivores. We are a very strange kind of omnivore, and that is because we have technology -the use of tools, weapons, and fire. We can hunt and kill using spears, arrows, guns etc., rather than teeth and claws. We cook our food. In fact, humans have the smallest gut for our body size of all primates. This is a result of evolution after we learned to cook. Cooked food requires less digesting, and a smaller gut reduces body weight, improving performance in hunting. Something our obese population has been trying to overcome! Some people on this forum are vegans. Fine. That is their choice, and they are welcome to make that choice. However, being a healthy vegan is more difficult than being a healthy omnivore. Non animal foods tend to be deficient in iron, vitamin B12, zinc, and some amino acids. Careful choice of the right vegan foods can get around those problems, but iron deficiency anemia and vitamin B12 deficiency anemia are both very common among vegans, along with some other health problems. Red meat is the richest source of dietary iron, and offals for vitamin B12. Dairy products are the best sources of calcium. Eggs supply all of those. Excessive consumption of meat has been suggested to be related to some health problems. Sure. That does not mean we should not eat meat. We should be a bit more careful about which meats we eat. Particularly bad are fatty meats, salty meats, and smoked meats. We should keep our meat consumption to reasonable levels. The creation of good health depends of a balanced diet, exercise and a few other factors. The balanced diet should, if possible, include animal protein. Small amounts of lean red meat, poultry, eggs, low fat milk, and fish. That is the way to maximise good health.
Finally!! A truly logical, sensible and accurate post in this hashed-up thread - thank you very much. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
This old chestnut again? Let me guess: former fatty, squeamish former meat eater? Let me jusy say, for the record, humans are Omnivores. Anything else is a personal choice. To tell you, i know 2 vegetarians who are pretty hefty.
I eat plenty of meat, and I agree that the healthiest diet for us is probably going to include a certain amount of meat, yet I cannot disagree with wisdom seeker and with Einstein: "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet." ~Albert Einstein Well except for the health part. Most of us should eat less meat for sure but none makes life a little more difficult. I would happily turn vegetarian if a large global movement began thus making it easier to be one.
This pretty much sums it up, moderation is key to keeping healthy. I find it ironic how many vegetarians love to be snooty to meat eaters about the health benefits whilst downing their 7th glass of wine. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! How about some counter points that take into consideration the rest of our anatomy? Such as having forward facing eyes, like (gasp) predators? Oh go on then, just for kicks I'll bite - http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-6a.shtml
?? Fruit bats eat only fruit and have forward-facing eyes; eye placement is not directly linked to predation.
How do you know that carnists are healthier than ovo-lacto-vegetarians? Are there any studies to support this?
I find the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis (ETH) quite interesting. I reside in the Yukon and the people indigenous to these parts used to eat a diet that was largely protein, more meat, fat and fish than plants because of the climate. The Eskimo diet of old would kill most of the people on this planet, yet they survived and thrived in one of the most hostile climates on earth. Since switching to a largely carbohydrate diet of processed foods, the incidence of diabetes in these two population groups has sky-rocketed to considerably higher than the rest of North America. Just some things to keep in mind. It's a very large planet with many micro-climates and life adapts to the food supply of it's niche. Not to horrify you, but I was raise in the old ways and taught to procure and prepare small game for the table. Predators ingest considerably more plant food sources than many persons may be aware, observed by those who live on the land. Humans appear to be among the most omnivorous species on the planet, able to adapt to the widest range of habitats through choice and ability to also adapt the habitat to meet many of our needs.
Never been fat in my life, actually I started gaining a little fatty on my belly after I started going veggy 3 years ago. But now I’m on the good track again (more aware of nutrition), hitting the gym, surfing, loosing fat and gaining body weight from muscle. I cannot be squeamish even if I wanted to, I was raised eating meat, my whole family does, and I really cannot judge them because they were also conditioned to eat meat. They were conditioned by society, their parents, advertising, etc. Being a carnist is also a personal choice dude, as eating meat is not necessary for survival today.
LOL, I do love me some red red wine, but not in excess. I don't beef carnists man, they are my friends, my family, my people.
You are absolutely right, although I don’t think such extreme climates are comfortable for humans; and people have adapted to live in such circumstances. But put an Eskimo to live in that weather naked and he would be in difficulty. I would never judge people for eating meat, there are circumstances that make us adapt to survive. Although most of us people in the planet not live in such circumstances; ergo is not a necessity for us and we eat meat just because of conditioning.