Because from my POV, the Palestinians and their Arab allies were trying to do the same thing to the Jews, and that's what they ended up doing to all the Arab Jews outside Israel. If you can prove this wasn't true, then take your case and your evidence to the UN, and demand that Israel release all classified documents from 1948. Your complaints are similar to complaints about European border adjustments after WW2, and almost every country on the planet has a questionable past, so maybe you should explain why Israel is the only issue in your mind and why no compromise should be expected of their opponents.
All-out war will mean the end of Palestine, they would lose all justifications for their cause and legitimize Israel's security concerns. Stick with the gameplan- UN recognition of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza to be followed with a truth and reconciliation commission dealing with all remaining issues, or harsh economic and travel sanctions if Israel refuses to cooperate.
There is also apparently a Canadian boat to Gaza - not sure if this all part of the same flotilla Since they all responding to Netanyahu's gobberish, it seems like its all part of the same flotilla effort as the US boat to Gaza.
how so. do you have even a shred of evidence that shows they wanted the jews gone because they were non arab? that happened because of Israel's actions. your trying to use an effect to justify the cause. Right because the US is so well known for allowing the UN to actually do something about Israel's crimes. historians have already more or less done so and nothing came of it. your going to believe what your going to believe no amount of fact will change that. so because other people were bad Israel is accountable for its actions? it isn't and the reason the palestinian shouldn't compromise is because no should be demanded that they bargain away some of their rights for other which is what you and yours demand of the palestinians. also you never answered my questions why is it that jews who haven't met even the most basic of requirements to have legal title to proeprty have protery rights to is but the palestinians it was stolen from don't? why is if ethnic cleansing bad its not ok to return tethnicly cleansed palestinians to their property but to remove people essentially squatting on it is bad. Basicly why do you have to very different standards for your own and the people they have decided to wage war against?
a-in the case of an all out war, you're assuming they'd lose. b-i'm not saying an all out war, just a super size terrorist attack, one that isn't officially by the Palestinians. take the real 9-11 for example, it was most likely from somebody(s) for the middle east, who is against american occupation of their country. who exactly? what country? nobody knows and so nobody can be punished for it. the irony is that made it an excuse for the US to punish and wage war on whoever they wanted by clearly fabricated(or no) evidence, but the main thing is, the world didn't care much cuz the US was attacked, and any attack thereof by the US on any other country can be seen as defense. sigh..so yeah, i guess it wouldn't work on isreal same way it didn't on the US.. then again; :scratchin: Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! which means they aren't legetiment now. yet isreal does whatever it wants. if anybody knows international law is a joke, it's the palestinians. well i do agree that there's great potential there, or at least there's much to hope for. but i don't remember my hopes for good happening to the palestiniens ever materializing. but i agree that whatever alternative course of action should be postponed AFTER isreal screws the UN attempt. with the US on it's side? give me a break. you're being too optimistic and civil bork.
I've never understood the concept of Israel's "security concerns". Do a people who want to ethnically cleanse a land have the right to security? Does the guy who break into my house with the intent of stealing it and everything I have and getting rid of me in the process deserve protection so he can do so?
it's a big fat joke, which is why i was always against giving a damn whether or not the right thing you do is in accordance with the law, because in this case the law IS your enemy, or at best it's you enemy's tool, i mean how do you expect the UN to help you when it's the one that gave off your land to somebody else on a silver platter? to this day i haven't gotten to see the legal documents pertaining to the creation of isreal and justification for the whole deal. i mean correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this what happened; britian occupied palestine. jews poured into palestine. the UN declared isreal a country in britian's palestine. britian agreed. so there's no more palestine. ... :shrug: international law discarded you from existence and gave what belongs to you to someone else while you're still there[so it's not like when the jews left palestine eons ago], and then you want me to consult international law when attempting to get my property back? you want me to sit down to a table and discuss getting my property back with who it was given to? what justice-defending countries should do, is tear down isreal and let palestine breath. all the homes and lands, given back to their respectful owners, same goes to resources, and every last trace of the isreali government should be erased off the face of the earth, just the way it was BEFORE isreal was brought to existence. if the palestinians wanted to cooperate later on with the jews and integrate them in their government[they were already integrated in society], no one is to say no. however, it should start purely palestinian just as it was taken purely palestinian. of course that's what countries should do. all what individuals like us can* do is send our money to be stolen by IDF soldiers, or go there ourselves to face their attack dogs and give their snipers some target practice. but otherwise, seriously, WHAT can i do? what can you do? demonstrate in the streets? resulted in nothing. throw rocks at the isreali embassies? also resulted in nothing. watch al-jazeera and raise your blood pressure? or write blogs? start threads? join facebook groups? then what? sure, that warms up the public, it raises people's awareness, it makes them more ready to accept positive change were it happens... but when will it happen, for everyone to accept? who will make it happen? and what is it, that will happen, which will bring about the positive change? *subject to your imagination and determination.
Empathy "I am convinced that if we are to get on the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered. " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b80Bsw0UG-U
What you need to demonstrate is that either there was a sovereign self-governed Palestine prior to Britain's arrival, or that the Jews who immigrated to Britain's Palestine displaced local inhabitants from lands they were already using, prior to the civil war. I haven't seen anything substantial to back either claim. The Palestinians chose to reject negotiations at the UN, so they lost a golden opportunity to make their claims under international law. If you want to call it "your" property, and believe no one should ever be forced off their lands for any reason, then you need to debunk the historians who say most Arabs there immigrated after the Roman era. You want them to sit down at a table with you and discuss you taking away their property? You can provide evidence in international courts and try to establish that Israel's basis for existing is more questionable than any other nation. It certainly won't happen until multiculturalism and multiracialism become everyday realities in the middle east, and middle-east minorities start growing rather than disappearing. It also won't happen until the Arabs are either prepared to account for their own past crimes and make the necessary restitutions, or to drop their attachments to a romanticized past and focus on a new future and a new cultural outlook that benefits all of humanity.
Er, why? because what westerners determine is law for the whole world? And whatever gibberish they decide every one else must accede to? And when will the west make reparations for their global crimes against the Third World? And against the Arab world? And against the people they enslaved and continue to occupy around the world? The fact of the matter is that Israel is a mistake. The west no matter what they think do not possess the right to give away land with people on it to anyone they please for reasons of religious delusion or racial entitlement. The Palestinian people are not chattel to be handed over to European Jews and nor is their land something that Europeans can use to get rid of Jews they do not want in their countries Bad enough to think that you can justify just walking into someone else's home and kicking them out and stealing their land and possessions, but to add insult to injury by hubristically donating them like cattle with no right to self defense alongwith the land to some other peoples!
CptBork, before i reply to your sentences with my own sentences which you in return will reply to in more separate sentences and in the end we'll be bickering on details and have lost the main issue that's been discussed, i'd like to know in which of the issue's main points do you disagree with me; the isreali state was founded, more or less, by exaction. peace talks, diplomatic courses, legal trials and the such[i.e international law] are useless against isreal. relying on countries to sort out the isreal-palestine issue is not a wise thing to do. finally,in the light of previous points; us, as individuals, 1-what can we do? 2- of what we can do, what should we do? you definitely disagree with the final point, but which of the previous do you disagree with and which do you agree with? then i'll reply to your points in a general way so not to deviate from the core issue.
Of course not. They don't even possess the right of self defense and are merely cattle to be herded into ghettos and put on diets. Empathy 2:
-economic exploitation -you're too ARROGANT -ain't study war yup, now i gotta see The King's Speech...
when he said "meet physical force with spiritual force"(08:18), i just KNEW he was an alien. which is the same i have to say about empathy, if you can't whack'em on the head with it, shovel them out with it or wave it for a new house and some food on the table, then what good is it? how would empathy solve anything? other than ease your guilt?
For one, Spider, please give me a universal definition of terrorist, please? For two, an elected leadership is an elected leadership. They picked them, we have to deal with them for the time being. Democracy's a bitch. For three, they have a lot of legit gripes.
Terrorism is inflicting harm on innocent people to achieve a political goal. It's not democracy when one party in an election is also a militia. Yes, I agree they have legitimate gripes, I'm just tired of people acting like only on side of this issue is bad.
Is the settler movement armed? Are they organised? Do they also elect people, and does that make their elections democratic? Is it worth asking questions like this?
I agree...but both parties are doing that here. We do it too. Except when we do it it's called "collateral damage." Was the election rigged? I had not heard that it was...and doesn't Fatah have a military arm as well? Both Fatah and Hamas are corrupt as hell as far as I've heard...so I can't say the Palestinians are getting good governace. Fair enough...there are extremists on both sides, minorities who want to keep this nonsense going, against the will of the majority of Palestinians and probably Israelis as well. I do think we need to be clear that there's been crimes on both sides. The lion's share is Israel's, but the Palestinian's own militants and their rockets? I can't excuse that...nor could I even look at it and say "This makes sense tactically!" It accomplishes no good goal! That's what really drives me berserk about the rocketing...it gives the Israelis some modicum of cover for what they want to do to the Palestinians.:wallbang: I've actually wondered if Mossad doesn't do some of that rocketing if things get too quiet, just so the Israelis have an excuse to seize more land???
Everyone in Israel is armed. But that's not an organized militia. Do you think the settlers can influence an election by intimidation? And what seems to be the common factor? I say it's religion. On one side it makes people care more about death than life, and on the other it fosters a messianic cult based on place. The only hope for peace there is atheism. :itold:
