'It's a child not a choice...but not if you were raped'

Bells, just because you dissagree doesn't nessaraly mean that the whole State is weird. SA has a tradition of being ahead of the curve with regard to rights. First to give women the vote and always gave aboriginals the right to vote. Now sure you think its wrong that partners should have ansay over your partners body but you do even now. If your partner divorces you, you have a claim on the fruits of his body, his super (and he has a claim on yours) further more if he dies its you and not him who decides if he should be an organ doner and what should happen to his body. Its hardly a massive leap to suggest that there are other areas where partners would have an interest in the others body. We arnt talking about one night stands here but rather married and defacto couples who already have claim on the the property of the other partner

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I agree it was because I quoted it from silentli89 but a fetus is a human in the process while it's in the uterus.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Wow ....

I need to nominate that as one of the strangest arguments we're going to hear all year.

C-section recovery time is longer. A twelve year-old suffering postpartum depression is a terrifying thought. Natural childbirth can result in permanent bodily damage even in adult women, including damage to the perineum; sometimes the perineum is deliberately cut in order to ease the birth. Stitches in one's vagina and rectum just doesn't sound fun; I know of no adult women who are anxious to repeat an episiotomy, and here you are suggesting easy childbirth by a child.

The proposition that a twelve year-old could "easily give birth" is exceptionally dubious. And the next time you have a chance, ask a surgeon about what a C-section would do to a twelve year-old.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

thats ridiculas, even with a c-section the mortality rate would be huge, and in order to avoid this the child would be delivered massivily premmie which would have significant implications for the child. Personally id rather be aborted

 

A link funding what exactly? Legalized abortions take places in clinics that are not subsidized. We have discussed this before as you say and I have shown you the links stating that the majority of abortions conducted are done in PRIVATE CLINICS and not subsidized by the US government. So you're either a liar or remain willfully ignorant. Planned Parenthood for example only receives about $270 million annually from government funded grants. 90% of abortions are done in the first trimester for the individual cost of around $350 which is paid out of pocket. So your notion that women are somehow dependent on your tax payer dollars is nonsense. If you had read post#312 you should have read this:

Only 14% of all abortions are paid for by the state.
And I am so impressed that you show concern for the truth of the issue. You'll find this also relevant:

Passed by Congress in 1976, the Hyde Amendment excludes abortion from the comprehensive health care services provided to low-income people by the federal government through Medicaid. Congress has made some exceptions to the funding ban, which have varied over the years. At present, the federal Medicaid program mandates abortion funding in cases of rape or incest, as well as when a pregnant woman's life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury.

http://www.aclu.org/reproductive-fre...nding-abortion

LG: I mean how does a majority (or for that matter, even a minority) support for an idea make the act more ethically sound?

You are the one who says its ethically unsound, there are many people who do not think its ethically unsound. You've been arguing with a bunch of people in this thread who obviously do not believe its ethically unsound but a matter of individual choice and circumstances. You are free of course to think it ethically unsound and believe me you'll have our best wishes when you choose to keep your unwanted baby (LOL!)

LG: Regardless you find yourself as dependent so you might as well quit pretending you are independent as some qualifier to tread on the rights of those who are dependent on you

Dependent on whom how? I don't have any children so there is no one dependent on me. Children are a responsibility one chooses to fulfill when and if one chooses to have children. Just ask Sam she has no children and it doesn't seem as if she ever expects to. Same for VI. Bells chose to have children and I may do the same one day. Just because you yelp about dependency doesn't make it true in terms of abortion or childbearing.

Gianna Jessen? If I understand it she is not a zygote.

LG: Why mention later term abortions at all?
Why should they be a problem in your books?

I mentioned later abortions because you were going on about it with Bells and I wanted to inform you that these abortions are rare at best. Only 7% of doctors are even trained to perform late abortion, that's how rare it is.

LG: Whatever figures you dream up, they can only be a subset of the figures estimating the numbers of abortion (unless you can substantiate the double fatalities occurring at a rate greater than 50%)
If it was 10 000 a day, it would still be less than the numbers of aborted children

Unlike yourself I don't have to cook-up reality for it suit my reality there are government and independent agencies keeping stats. But its interesting to me that you don't seem to worry nor do you care about the deaths of women and their unborn fetuses. Really interesting since you seem to pretend you have some extra concern for life. Why don't you have any concern for the number of women who die from illegal unsafe abortions? Why do you treat the living only a side note to the unborn?

Oh yeah I forgot. Their just women. Ha!

LG: So far the only reason you have given for a woman being the sole concern in the problem is that she is independent of the child (you have also stated that the child is dependent, but that's not a valid distinction since everyone exists in a state of dependence). The degree that it is necessary or not is the degree that one understands justice issues are primarily about regulating the acts of those one is dependent on .. IOW it depends whether one thinks it is necessary to compound power in those who already have it or whether justice is meant specifically for protecting the weak.

I never said that. I have always maintained that the fetus is a part of the woman as long as its in utero. The fetus is dependent on the host yes, everyone has existed in that kind of dependence mostly because the host accepted the fetus (either because it did not miscarry or was not aborted). The unborn are neither weak nor strong they are dependent on the weakness and strength of the host. They are dependent on the desires of the host. It has nothing to do with 'justice'.

LG: you mean teenagers with FMLTWIA on their mobile? Or do you mean a particular rabid pro-abortion contributor on sci (but who could have just as easily been referred to as a "crazy bitch" or a "stuck up cow" on account of her bipolar bouts) designated as one in a half-hearted manner amidst a liturgy of her name calling and insults?


What the hell is that? If you have some issue with Bells take it up with her. If she's stuck up LG its because she's married not because she really really believes you're a loser and even if she did I'm sure there are some lobotomized internet women who would find you worthy of…well…hmmm….something I guess.:shrug:

Hey I know! You can always try this:

"The bizarre event was the culmination of five months of cyber-dating, during which time Kirsten and Steve’s avatars met in Second Life, struck up a virtual rapport, had virtual sex and moved in together, virtually."


http://www.datingsitesreviews.com/article.php?story=Second-Life-Weddings-Dating

 

I agree only its deeper than that. Its about controlling women in general, their possibilities ie future, bodies and sexuality.

 

I could repeat myself again.

Instead I will ask you to find where I said that

If you think its a blood clot I could ask you the same q ....

huh?
you were explaining how a miscarriage is natural
I was explaining a few of the techniques used to engineer abortion

Hence one is natural and the other plainly isn't

I am just puzzled by what sophistry you are playing to bridge the two.

actually the example was highlighting the political language your argument requires.

If a woman kills it, its an abortion.
If someone else kills her and the baby, its a double homicide.

IOW you are using political language to make a distinction when there is none

Valid reasons, eh?
Does this mean you have moved from the position of arguing that its completely taboo to investigate the reasons a women has for pursuing an abortion?

yes
a scenario that bears a stark similarity to a child killed in the womb

yes, if we apply the principle that its permitable to engineer what can potentially happen naturally we end up with some absurd scenarios, don't we?

and this reduces the danger a child in the womb faces when undergoing an abortion in exactly what way?

A parasite can't be the same species as the host

Your argument is political bullshit in nature.

Kind of like saying black people are monkey like in nature as a means of overlooking the fact that they are human like in nature .. which is of course an effective tool to render them subservient to whatever political agenda one has.

I can't see the sense of what you are trying to say.

That because a lot of pregnancies result in a miscarriage, aborting a child that wouldn't otherwise be miscarried is of no consequence?

Kind of like because a lot of people who play lotto lose, stealing the prize from someone who wins is of no consequence?

The determination driving your ignorance is astounding

If the abortionist showed up three hours early, what do you think would have happened?

do you know what an antonym is?

Please explain how FMLTWIA is a derogatory term intended to demean all women.

You are dopey because you think I view women that way.

Lucy said I referred to all women as whores.
As far as I can determine, the only person I called a whore was lucy...

Even if we want to ride with the problem your brain has placing the word "whore" in a context other than a person who receives money for sexual favours (and even if we want to overlook the question why lucy is more than willing to issue a thousand insults yet cry foul when a single one is played back at her) , how do you extrapolate an insult to lucy to incorporate an insult to all women?

what drugs are you on exactly?

Fancy that huh?

Someone insults lucy, after she spends the good part of half a dozen posts goading ....

based on her goading.

Kind of like if someone presses your buttons enough, you start calling them fucking retards

If you think FMLTWIA is a term meant to demean women, you really should catch up on some extra reading

You idiot.
FMLTWIA is a self referential phrase.

yet you go to great pains to distinguish that you don't mean this

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

which makes the great pains you go to when discussing the word "whore" as if it only has one context all the more laughable

You really should get out more often

Needless to say, if abortionists were in the habit of rushing the child to an emergency ward if it was still clinging to life after being removed from its mother's uterus, there would certainly be more cases like Gianna Jessen's. Of course it was the absence of the abortionist which made Gianna's case unique

If you can find me a link about nurses performing an abortion in an accredited clinic, I can guarantee that its controversial.

Do you consider a baby that still has its head in its mother's uterus a baby?

If not why?

(no brownie points for political bs terms either)

Still waiting for you to provide a link to back up your claim.

Since you just make things up and pretend that you know, my guess is that you studied humanities

why not?
(once again no brownie points for political bullshit terms)

Why what does it do?
Jump out and strangle her?

Her right to what?
Kill it?

What makes you think I have given an opinion about abortion in the case where the mother's life is at stake?

Do you think its fair that I answer these loaded questions?

Is it fair to me that you ask me to justify views that I haven't expressed?

What makes you think I have expressed this view?

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

I understand that you don't read my posts very carefully.

At the expense of the mother's what?
Life?
Patience?
Time?
Convenience?
Concerns her child will be a dwarf?

On the contrary, its obvious that the success of your argument relies totally on the premise there is absolutely nothing else to factor in the question of abortion other than the pregnant woman's convenience

You can't even bring yourself to discuss ethics outside the schisms of it being either legalized or illegalized.

As a practical example, a discussion on the ethics of pregnant mums chain smoking might bring a host of measures to the fore (like education, professional advise from medical professionals etc). If someone came along and attempted to disband all such discussion by citing how impractical it is to illegalize it ("What are you going to do? set up ultrasounds at all the places that sell cigarettes?"), what would you think?
eh?

Jessen's experience simply highlights the weakness of the political terms you rely on heavily to relegate the discussion purely to the question of a pregnant woman's convenience.

How does being pregnant condemn one to death?
It certainly doesn't appear to be as straight forward as answering how carrying out an abortion condemns a child in the womb to death.

So if Gianna Jessen was the product of rape or incest, her experience would be less poignant?

How does that work .... ?

 

as mentioned earlier, the only abortion clinics I can think of that are independent of state accreditation, administration, training, regulation and standards testing are back street ones ... and it appears that you have problems with those.
So what is it exactly you are talking about?

I still don't follow the connection you are trying to make between something being popular and something being ethical

workmates, other people in traffic, siblings and even parents when they cross a certain threshold of age ... just a few off the top of my head

so you are at least willing to concede that late term abortion is unethical?

You think 14 000 a day is inflated?

actually I am just comparing the volume to question why you not only turn a blind eye to the greater loss of life, but also why you insist that in all circumstances abortions are valid and justified

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion#Incidence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_abortion#Incidence_by_continent

Pity you can't forget the political language you require to maintain that the issue is solely about women

I don't follow?
Please explain to me again how being in a state of dependence places one outside of issues of justice.

Trying to work out who it is I called a whore of course ... or did you forget that you never did find a reference where I called all women whores?

 

LG: as mentioned earlier, the only abortion clinics I can think of that are independent of state accreditation, administration, training, regulation and standards testing are back street ones ... and it appears that you have problems with those. So what is it exactly you are talking about?

What are you talking about? Abortion clinics are regulated because ITS LEGAL. Back street clinics were not regulated because they were not regulated and that's what made them unsafe and put women's lives at risk. You apparently have no problems with unregulated clinics putting women's lives at risk.

LG: I still don't follow the connection you are trying to make between something being popular and something being ethical

The laws sets a standard based on what the society considers to be ethical practical or both it doesn't decide ones personal or individual ethics but either way there is no universal standard of what is either ethical or legal. You can decide homosexuality is an unethical practice but it can be protected by the law or there can be a situation where it is considered unethical by society and rendered illegal by law. But no matter how you look at it whether one determines homosexuality or abortion unethical will be based on a personal point of view, there is no universal standard of ethics that decide any one of these things as being ethical or unethical.

LG: workmates, other people in traffic, siblings and even parents when they cross a certain threshold of age ... just a few off the top of my head

Red herring examples having nothing to do with a woman's uterus which exists independent of anyone but the woman in question.

LG: so you are at least willing to concede that late term abortion is unethical?

No. I believe it represents the least desirable option for when a woman should abort. Earlier abortions are safer and easier.

LG: You think 14 000 a day is inflated? actually I am just comparing the volume to question why you not only turn a blind eye to the greater loss of life, but also why you insist that in all circumstances abortions are valid and justified

Do you think the unnecessary deaths of living, breathing, conscious women acceptable? Ever wonder why a woman who died from a botched abortion was never registered as a death of two people but one? Since you believe that it amounts to the death of two people wouldn't that place the numbers of women dying of botched abortions as double what was registered and if this is so don't you find that a greater loss of life than would happen if the abortions were safe? Or is it that you simply don't care if women die?

LG: Pity you can't forget the political language you require to maintain that the issue is solely about women

How is it not solely an issue of women?

LG: I don't follow? Please explain to me again how being in a state of dependence places one outside of issues of justice.

The unborn are outside of issues of justice and everything else for that matter.

LG: Trying to work out who it is I called a whore of course ... or did you forget that you never did find a reference where I called all women whores?

I'm a woman. You didn't call me one because of any other reason than the fact that I'm a woman and you could hurl it as an insult unlike retard which can be hurled at anyone regardless of gender.

 

The history of human thought shows that in all cultures there exists an interest in ethical issues.
There is a philosophical discourse in which these ethical issues are discussed.
When an ethical issue pertains to a specific demographics (such as the education of children, caring for the elderly, pregnant women, criminals, ...), the discussion of this issue is not limited to this demographics, as if it would be this demographics alone who would be in the position to discuss it. Instead, these issues are part of the philosophical discourse of ethics and this discourse is not reserved for only a particular demographics at the exlusion of all others.

Ie. issues of pedagogy are not left to children to be discussed and dealt with.
Issues of caring for sick people are not left to sick people to be discussed and dealt with.
Issues of caring for the elderly are not left to the elderly to be discussed and dealt with.
Issues of dealing with criminals are not left to the criminals to be discussed and dealt with.
And so similarly, issues of pregnant women are not left to the pregnant women to be discussed and dealt with.

This is how society works.

 

Agreed. So the discussion would be based on what affect abortion would have on the woman's life and how this would affect society. So again it will get back to the life of women which affects issues such as health, poverty, child rearing, control of one body, women's rights, overall cost to the health care system etc.

In actuality abortion doesn't affect other people unless they are the male who impregnated the woman. Everyone else who has an opinion on the matter are simply stating their personal ethical viewpoint, in effect it doesn't affect them unless they are in a position to opt for an abortion.

 

Oh no, anyone can be a whore.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whore

 

Definition of a whore: prostitute: a woman who engages in sexual intercourse for money


Do you use the term whore to describe anyone? When was the last time you ever called a man a whore?

You're so disingenuous you even ignore the definition in the link you posted which is,

Whore:
A woman that sleeps with everyone but YOU!!!!!
SEE: SLUT - A woman that sleeps with everyone.
That whore wouldn't sleep with me.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

This is where one of the main disagreements is.

There are many other issues related to abortion, there is more to abortion than just the mere act of it.
When does human life begin? Is abortion murder or not?
What is normal sexuality?
Is it ethical to kill people who are somehow an inconvenience?
When should one person's life be sacrificed at the expense of another's? When not?
And many more.
These issues involve other people than just the pregnant women, and they involve the greater scope of the discourse of ethics in a society.

 

I was just thinking what post whores some people are!
I also know a Facebook whore (he's male).

 

Oh stop being an ass. What the hell does that have to do with this bloody topic? LG didn't accuse anyone of being a 'post whore'

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

These questions abound and the answer always gets down to personal opinion which do not involve other people.

 

I'm going to be completely open on this subject. I was born from a rape. My father was a person who raped around five women or more and he was in consequence deported to Ecuador after he was caught. The issue comes in however that I was born from this rape. (Well a lot of people see it as a big deal, but I could seriously care less.) The thing is that if I wasn't born, there is one person or quite a few people who wouldn't be alive anymore. I saved this girl from drowning when I was young and saved numerous people from committing suicide. From the 6th to the 12th grade my IQ increased from 98 to 107. I enjoyed that. Now let's look at abortion according to rape. One could argue that killing me in turn would have caused these people to die as well from suicide and drowning. One death over maybe around fifteen or more? People do not realize how much of an affect one life makes for another. Then again, sometimes parents don't have the money to provide shelter, but then again with every problem there is a solution right? I rather give the child to some random person on the street who I think I could trust, and even those who I cannot trust. Why? Because he/she will still be alive and he/she can make the choice later on to work hard to get out of the situation and in turn live a very happy life. As has been proven, just because you are born on the streets doesn't mean you are always going to be on the streets. I was given to a couple who only knew my birth mother for three weeks. I turned out quite fine considering I am now in college.

 

When does someone not have a personal opinion of someone else supporting their personal opinion though? You could easily disregard anything using this method of problem solving. Research is opinions of someone else you use to back up yours. It's his personal opinion, but what if it is a good personal opinion? It isn't about it being a personal opinion, it all comes down to that if it is a good one. All opinions, in this case at least, involve others. His opinion is now out there to the public. Even if it is a lie, it still doesn't defeat the fact that it exists as a lie, thus it wouldn't hurt to take it into account even if it was a lie. If it was a lie, does it really matter if you take it in? You won't see it as a truth if it is a lie so there is no harm in taking his opinion into consideration. Otherwise you are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy about him being wrong, never giving a chance for him to prove himself right. If you know your right, this "lie" will not hurt to take into your database of knowledge. I'm not trying to make any arguments here, I am just trying to keep the peace.