'It's a child not a choice...but not if you were raped'

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by visceral_instinct, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    In a perfect world you mean. The morning after pill only works the morning after, most women don't necessarily believe they are pregnant the morning after and there is always the issue of access. The 'should haves' and 'why didn't they' are irrelevant since there has always been a percentage of women who have gotten pregnant and then chosen to have an abortion. Hindsight is just that, hindsight.

    I don't believe that abortion amounts to 'killing people'. Never have.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Except when it comes to getting pregnant apparently. I'm of the opinion that if you are so opposed to pregnancy that you will undergo abortion rather than give birth, its your responsibility to ensure there is no pregnancy. Take a pill to prevent pregnancy everytime you have sex. But then, its not the people who take responsibility for their actions who have to worry about stuff like that.
    To me, its very simple, without the abortion, there would be a baby.
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry I don't understand your point here. What do you mean when it comes to getting pregnant? Obviously whatever may have happened that was in your control MAY come up in hindsight. Responsibility. Everyone wants to talk about responsibility. Women who gets pregnant and makes a choice is taking responsibility whether it be abortion, adoption or having a baby. To me its very simple, a foetus only has the potential of becoming a baby and doesn't have any rights.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what gives us the right to determine the rights of the fetus. Its like men determining the rights of women. Just because you don't think the other is a person.
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well there is a person carrying what essentially is a parasite. Don't forget that. The concerns of the living supersede the potential of the unborn
     
  9. birch Valued Senior Member

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    you seem to think that existence is better than non-existence. i don't find even your logic very sound. you use typical rhetoric like 'chance'. there is also a chance i could win the lottery too. you seem to place a high priority on bringing people in this world and called it giving them a 'chance' when in reality they didn't have a choice to be born either. as a matter of fact, the majority of the reason why people struggle for life is because of the survival instinct rather than what they may actually want and not that they care to be here that much. i don't see your giving them a 'chance' as being more benevolent as it is just as selfish, possibly unconsciously as most want to propogate their species and bring more people in the world to be with them.

    what you don't consider is the other side of the coin. there is nothing ethical about people having children they don't care about or they people having children irresponsibly either. there are lots of people who do this too. there is nothing ethical about how parents can abuse their kids too but that happens all the time. can't really regulate that well either.

    i just don't see abortion or those having abortions as the most evil thing considering it's up to the mother to ascertain her situation as best as possible, the child cannot and she has to. some people may decide that it's in the best interest for the child to not be born at that time or in that situation.

    some people are more realistic. you also can't control what the pregnant person does while pregnant which could benefit or severely hurt the fetus. there is a line that needs to be drawn somewhere and pregnancy is very personal. it's inside their body and they are the producers of it. i consider what the person does and what they decide about their fetus to be their right. after it's born, different considerations.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    And that gives us the ownership rights and rights to determine personhood at our convenience? It gives us the right to decide whether the child will be born or will die? I agree that the concerns of the living take precedence, but do they supercede the life of a child? Only when the contest is between the survival of one or the other, I would think and even then, there are women who will opt to save the child and risk their lives.
     
  11. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. Yes. Not a child Sam. The foetus isn't yet a child but to answer your question again its yes.

    You seem confused about the point in your last sentence. You are speaking of women reacting to a child they have or a child they want, we are speaking of women who have decided that there will be no child.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I don't distinguish between the two. I don't see why the child being born should make a difference. No one is allowed to dispose of their children once they are born, if they decide they don't want them anymore.
    I'm only qualified to speak on one, not the other. I think everyone deserves the chance at life.
     
  13. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I do distinguish and see a difference between the two. By the way there are cases where women dispose of their children once their born, one that stands out in my mind is the young woman who placed the newborn in the dumpster, another who left it in the garbage bin in the bathroom during a high school prom. I see no harm in having a foetus removed.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    And I see no difference between one and the other. Hence my referral to abortion as child abandonment, except that no one else can rescue that child.
     
  15. birch Valued Senior Member

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    of course people can dispose of their children after born, it's called abandonment as well as they can do a lot of things for good or ill. they can fuck it up or help it. many people have children and they fuck it up, sometimes intentionally.
     
  16. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Abandonment, killing, however you want to look at it is fine. You have the choice never to make that choice. Again you keep talking about children and I'm talking about a collection of cells that are usually removed in their 8th week. You are free to go and rescue the remains of the foetus if that's what you want to do:bugeye:
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Tell me, do you think abandoned children should be rescued? Like the child in the dump? Or left to die?
     
  18. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    I went back and answered the question. A child is not a foetus. Go back and read the addition to the post.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So you believe abandoned children should be rescued? Why? Aren't they better off dead?
     
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    and who are you to determine that? you are nosy about someone else's child and what they do with their fetus in their womb.

    some people wish they hadn't been born or in the situation they were. so you think you should determine whether they are born? at least the mother should have more say so than you. after all, she's carrying it and it's her dna.

    you determine what you would do with your pregnancy and your child.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I guess I am a person who believes that abandoned children should be rescued, even if they are abandoned in the womb. They may not have much of a chance outside it, but it will be more or less equal to the chance that every child who is born is presented with.
     
  22. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Sam I am not debating here what is best for a child. Birch says that sometimes the woman is making a decision that's in the best interest of the child, I notice that most women who opt for an abortion are not thinking of what is best for a child but what is best for their lives, they are doing it because they themselves are not ready. They are doing it because they don't want to be pregnant (you should give that documentary a watch). I don't look at a foetus as an abandoned baby you do.

    Children who are found abandoned are usually picked up and dealt with. Has nothing to do with abortions.
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yup that is my experience also. I don't know if you recall, but I have said before that my opinions on abortion underwent a change after I saw a live abortion at a hospital I worked in. I'm not certain how suctioning off body parts of a child is better for the child no matter that the child is barely an inch long. Sometimes, I think a lot of our ethics are based on ignorance.
     

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