Does Chi exist ?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by IndianCurry2010, Nov 8, 2010.

  1. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232
    The evidence is there inside us all, without it you and I would
    not exist, it is the flame that burns within, it is the light that makes us
    what we are, open your heart to it and experience it for yourself. OM
     
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  3. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

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    Nice poetry, but neither proof nor evidence. :shrug:
     
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  5. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232
    OK, so if its not printed in the Scientific American you're not
    going to believe it.

    Those who recognize it have all the proof they need, for you
    sadly it seems that is to be denied you, perhaps in the next lifetime,
    but you probably don't believe in that either.
     
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  7. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    woo

    Guess what your nom de plume means.

    Look at mine. The opposite of skeptical is 'gullible'.
    A skeptical person requires evidence before choosing to believe something. A gullible person is prepared to believe without evidence. That person is a con artist's dream.

    Where do you fit?
     
  8. kurros Registered Senior Member

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    793
    Just because you can explain a thing in multiple ways doesn't mean that one of the explanations is wrong, or offers no insight that can't be obtained from the other. The classical electromagnetic field is an extremely useful concept which most people would agree is 'real', yet the more fundamental quantum description is very very different. The fact that we have the quantum theory doesn't mean we can no longer gain anything from considering the classical theory.
     
  9. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232
    it means i don't take myself seriously.

    personally i have all the evidence i need, but i admit its a mission to convince
    nonbelievers.
     
  10. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232

    quantum theory asks us to believe in paradox, does anyone have a
    problem with that?
     
  11. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    I have a problem with it, because it's simply not true.
     
  12. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    1,449
    I am easy to convince. All you need is good data. Objectively derived, empirical, and credible. However, all I get from guys like you is subjective stuff that has no credibility.
     
  13. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232
    Is this what you mean, "Most physicists today believe that quantum mechanics is correct, and that the EPR paradox is a "paradox" only because classical intuitions do not correspond to physical reality" wiki. so everything is fine except the way we understand reality?

    There are other paradox issues relating to mathematics such as godel's theorem, i'm not sure how
    that effects quantum theory but as it is essentially described by mathematics
    (which i admit to not understanding) i would imagine there could be some
    connection or knock on effect?
     
  14. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    8,423
    EPR paradox isn't a real paradox. It's a poor name for entanglement. A real paradox is a reality violation. For example, if you are 6 feet tall and 150 feet tall right now then that is a paradox. One thing that is clear from all branches of physics is that reality is consistent, persistent, and non-contradictory. In other words, paradoxes are not supported and if some model brings up a real paradox then the model has some incorrect component to it.

    Consequently, QM doesn't ask anyone to "believe" anything. It is simply a model of how reality operates at small scales.

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  15. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    That *mission* will always fail until you know what "non-believers" are asking for. They want evidence. That is a demonstration that some idea in your mind matches actual reality. In other words, reality has to agree. If it doesn't then the idea is not true and truth is all the matters in the world of science... now how you feel.

    This is the case for chi. It's an attractive and very human-satiating concept; however, it is not a real entity.
     
  16. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232
    That's fine, i understand your frustration, some things must be experienced
    to be understood, most of what we understand at the deep end of
    the physical universe is what the High Priests of Science describe
    in their scripture journals, and we believe it and swallow it whole because
    there is no way we could personally verify it for ourselves, for that
    we would need a particle accelerator in our basement, so we go along
    with the consensus and it becomes part of our belief system, but it is
    nonetheless second hand knowledge. If you are happy to believe that
    and can see its positive benefits in your own life and the world
    around you, that is absolutely fine, most of the time that is what i do
    like everyone else. i marvel at technology, computers, space probes,
    i am in fact a technician myself.

    But there are some things we must experience for ourselves, a direct
    first hand experience, Gnosis. There is no theory of consciousness
    but that does not stop us from believing that we are aware, self
    evident we say. There is a technology that describes our psychic world
    but because we have no theory for it, it is outside the scientific paradigm
    so not available to the majority of the populous who are blissfully ignorant
    of it. There are a places where you could go and experience this Gnosis
    for yourself with the help of a teacher, in fact there are many places
    in many parts of the world, but first before anything else you need to
    open up and admit to yourself there is actually some possibility that this
    can happen.
     
  17. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232
    well quantum theory certainly does not agree with most peoples sense
    of reality.

    I think i know what non believers are asking i've addressed that in my post to Skeptic.
     
  18. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    1,449
    Woo

    Quantum physics is weird indeed. However, I believe it because it is supported by objectively derived, empirical, and credible evidence. I do not mind that most such evidence is second hand. We cannot all carry out multi-million dollar experiments, and so we accept what is written up in peer reviewed and reputable scientific journals.

    Subjective evidence is not acceptable. To say that you believe in the whichness of the why because you have felt it deep in your heart is simply not good enough. Almost any subjective sensation can be produced by drugs, direct electrical stimulation of the brain, starvation, meditation, extreme fatigue etc. Subjective is usually not true.

    I am aware that your strongly experienced, direct first hand personal gnosis fits the category of subjective sensation. Thus it cannot be accepted as indicating something real.
     
  19. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It honestly doesn't matter if QM agrees with people's sense of reality. What matters is whether or not reality agrees with QM.

    I am in agreement with Skeptical's response.
     
  20. woowoo Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    232

    "Subjective is usually not true", are there then any circumstances when
    it could be true? Buddhism asserts its all an illusion, maya, the trick
    is to see through it. Is your truth a peer reviewed journal? There must
    be plenty of holy men out who have been working on this a lifetime
    who would surely appreciate a copy of you journal.
     
  21. Kennyc Registered Senior Member

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    993
    No there is no trick. The point is to find the truth using the best tools we have.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  22. woowoo Registered Senior Member

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    232
    i agree, i'm always willing to share my toolbox.

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  23. kurros Registered Senior Member

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    I think my point was missed here, I was using quantum electrodynamics as an example of a well-accepted deeper explanation for classical electromagnetism, not as something weird (i.e. as an analogy for western medicine). Just as all the predictions of classical electromagnetism are not true (it contains singularities etc.) neither are all the predictions or explanations for phenomena offered by classical chinese medicine and chi theory, however that doesn't mean that they don't have anything right and that there is nothing we can learn by studying them.
     

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