Notice this took place in Pakistan. I'd say Pakistani Muslims are a breed all of their own. They may serve as an excellent example of what happens when one's culture is decimated and they must adopt the culture of the people who conquered and enslaved them*. Sadly, millions of Americans wasted their charity money trying to lend a helping hand when Pakistan was flooded - even though Pakistan has the fastest growing nuclear arsenal in the entire world (and could have used thir own money taking care of themselves), even though those ass holes profited selling nuclear technology to North Korea, we Americans (and Japanese) still helped them, even though they overwhelmingly despise the USA, we still gave them help, they know that it's one dick-face in Florida and could have burned his effigy (if they needed to burn something) but instead chose to piss on a US flag, Pakistan is the biggest supporter of terrorism in the region - - f*cking up life for Afghans, overwhelmingly support the Taliban, attack India, sell nukes to NK, bomb London - look, I'm not saying we should return their kindness in kind, but, next time Pakistani people choose to build nukes over polio vaccines and a massive outbreak of polio hits their country, think about sending your charity money to help people in your own city and if possible get personally involved. Because, these little ass holes will turn right around shit on you when given half the chance. It's your money so you make the choice. * which makes me think of Spain and the ruthless manner in which they used religion to rip apart the cultures of the Native Americans. The Spanish were, after all, colonized by Arabs and forced to live under the rule of Religious Supremacy for 600 years before winning their freedom. In a classic case the battered become the violent batterer the Spanish seemed to become religious fanatics themselves. The Spanish never had a culture of Religious Supremacy or religious fanaticism before being colonized.
I did not "redefine the norm as outliers". Yes, most people are superstitious. I never said they weren't. The poorer less educated they are, the more superstitious they seem to be. Why do you suppose that is the case SAM? IMO Type II errors are probably the main cause of the very large variety of religions that exist. Of course, once you have the idea of codified belief, then there's a whole other phenomenon taking place as people try to make sense of (and build) on the type II errors of the past. What started out as walking around a rock 2 times for good luck, turned into walking around a square monument 5 times for the Gods which evolved into walking around the Kabaa counterclockwise 7 times for a One God. - there was no good evidence for "luck" - there was no good evidence for "Gods". - there is no good evidence for "Allah". Yet, here we are with a complete belief system built up from an initial type 2 error. Not only that, but we have people killing one another in the name of that evolved type 2 error. And get this, those type 2 errors affect the neurochemistry of the very people who are making them! People like you SAM. Now, that is interesting Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Why do you suppose Scientology is one of the fastest growing religions in the world? Why do some Muslims find Scientology "makes more sense to them" than Islam does SAM?
So is Afghanistan - that is why for generations they could not live in peace with themselves let alone with anyone else.
How much of it have your read? Enough to be more specific about what is objectionable to you in it? Can you quote some of text stating the concepts and ideas you disagree with? I admit to great ignorance as to what is written there as in my entire life I only read it for about an hour. I found nothing offensive - it was mainly boring, but I read only small part of total. Please point me to the more interesting parts you read. (or are you even more ignorant than I about what is actually in it?)
Verse 5:51 in the qur'an can offend westerners: Thus, the qur'an dictates that Muslims never truly befriend us (regardless of whether we invaded their country or not), that they reject our military protection (against the Taliban, for example), and that they never truly accept any humanitarian aid that we give them.
Auliya is guide. Zalimun is those who oppress from zlm or zulm, oppression. Jews have converted their religion to one of racism and Christians to one antithetical to what Jesus intended. While they have their own scriptures, neither of them are religious guides for Muslims. The Quran is a religious scripture not a political treatise.
All Jews? All Christians? An interesting bit of hypocrisy coming from the person who goes into fits about people painting Muslims with the same brush. ~String
Think of all that Muslims have adopted not only from Christians and Jews but from other religions - start with the veil, go on to circumcision and FGM and in India, the caste system, in the Middle East, puppet dictators. None of these are Islamic. But even if we were to take it literally, as whatzisname has done, can you name one thing in which Muslims have been guided by Christians or Jews which has helped them to become better Muslims? Note that in Muslims a Christian is someone who believes in the Gospels and a Jew is someone who believes in the Taurat.
Terry Jones went to New York City to be on th Today Show. He called off the burning. 200 anti Quran burning protesters showed up at the closed church anyway. Terry Jones allegedly claimed to have gotten the planned mosque in NYC moved away from ground zero. He did no such thing and will have further made a fool of himself if he truly claimed that. Then again if all publicity is good publicity then Id does not matter how stupid he is he wins buy getting on national TV. I am anti-censorship and would not support government stopping a Quran burning. I think shaming and ridicule are the way to deal with that sort of behavior,
Same here I think if people want to make a spectacle of themselves, they should be allowed to. Its one way to ascertain public opinion on an issue, by laying down the gauntlet. Frankly I'm surprised there were 200 anti-Quran burning protestors. Were they Muslims?
Every religion adopts it's root customs from some religion before it. The only reason we don't know where Judaism came from is that our accurate historical records start about the time that Judaism came about. Though, there are some parallels between Judaism and various Egyptian cults. Christianity came from Judaism and probably some mideastern pagan rituals, later it adopted significant European pagan rituals. Islam came about out of mostly Judaic and Meccan pagan rituals, with some notable inspiration from Christian ideals. It's a blend and snap shot of the world around it when it's inventor set about creating his new religion. Personally, I like Karen Armstrong's explanation, but I'm sure Muslims reject her linking Islam to pagan moon god rituals, especially the whole marching around the Ka'bah bit, which long predated Islam. Seriously? Do you really believe--having occurred in a vacuum--that none of those would have occurred in Islamic cultures naturally? If so, then. . . well. . . let's just say that's pretty dense and no less pompous. As if, Muslim societies would somehow avoid all the pitfalls of human existence were it not for those pesky infidels! Muslims are humans, and as humans, I doubt would have been any better than what came before them or after. But, I'll bite on the points you made. The veil--while prevalent in many cultures--predates Islam in Arabia. To pretend that it's somehow alien to Islam is to pretend that the factors that led to Islam were somehow alien to it as well. Dictators are natural to all societies. Islam came about in an era of dictatorial powers. Whether exercised by a collection of religious men, Sultan or Shah, the power of the ruling elite was absolute even during the early Caliphates. And as far as circumcision goes,, the vast majority of the Islamic world believes that it is next to mandatory for Muslim men. This, therefore, makes it "Islamic", despite your claims to the contrary. A religion is what it's people believe and what they do. Your "purist" Koran-exclusive form of Islam is infinitesimal compared to the overwhelming majority of Muslims to believe that the Hadith and Sunnah to be guiding doctrine. Can you tell me how this question is even remotely connected to your ad hominem description of Christians whilst decrying the same tactic when used on Muslims? ~String
I just wanted to see what you could come up with. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! True, but when one is pointing out the verse which tells Muslims not to be guided by Jews or Christians I'm simply pointing out the stuff in which they have been. The veil came to Arabia from the Byzantine Christians and both circumcision and FGM are "tradition" or "sunnah" not mentioned anywhere in the Quran but most likely adopted from Jews and Egyptians.
Doth mine eyes deceive me? Were you not dancing around the issue earlier, calling it--lemme think--an act of arson and terrorism? The "hint" is that it should be stopped, though, you certainly avoided that point earlier. And, if indeed, an act of arson, surely it should be banned, unless you think that arson should be legalized. ~String
Doesn't matter. Cursory internet searches will lead you anywhere. However, a dedicated search will reveal that tradition trumps the Quran for many Muslims. Read again, I said its similar to in that the aim is to invoke fear. If those were Salman Rushdies books would the demo have been stopped? And yet wouldn't the purpose be to terrorise?
By "tradition", you mean "Sunnah", no? Okay. Well, more than a cursory search, pretty much EVERY single website I come across calls for male circumcision in Islam. Can you point me to one that is an Islamic website that calls for the practice to be stopped, or at least, made non-mandatory (especially one that is respected by practically every Muslim male on earth). Nope. Nor should it be. No. In fact, that lofty claim would have to be supported by equally lofty evidence. Burning books, flags, portraits, effigies are all forms of protest and all protests are directed at either individuals, groups of individuals or ideas and those acts are protected and respected--by and large--within this country. Protesting people and ideas in western society, while at times annoying and perhaps revolting, is honored and respected above the need to prevent offense. So, please support your claim "to terrorize" with something a little more concrete than rhetoric. ~String
Not necessarily. e.g. death to apostates, death to blasphemers, etc are tradition in that some cleric somewhere has decreed it so, for various political or other reasons. Thats usually what we call schools of thought or madhabs. Tradition is differences in how we pray, whats acceptable or not acceptable, whats allowed and not allowed, whats taboo and whats not and most of them have zilch to do with sunna, since they vary by the madhabs. Sunnah is following all but one Hadith - the one which says nothing which Mohammed said or did should be written down. Probably not. I myself realised it only when debating the argument about FGM and the al Azhar fatwa against it. Like "crap! all this is also true for male circumcision!" Exactly, hence you won't find me saying it should. I've learned my lessons from the BJP victory in India, sometimes all you need to do to demonstrate the fallaciousness of a proposition is give it a platform and put it to the test. Its a power equation thing. Those who burn books want to demonstrate power over an idea, those who burn flags want to demonstrate against power. Perhaps its a personal idiosyncrasy but I never yet met a book burner who believed in freedom of expression.
You're presuming to know the intent of those who commit an act. That's pretty silly. Burning the American flag can be just as much a protest against an idea as a protest against a power. The WBC doesn't burn the American flag to protest the power, they are protesting the idea of accepting homosexuality as legal. That's pretty much their MO anymore. What if I burned a copy of the Constitution of the USA? Would I not be protesting an idea? Would that amount to some sort of terrorism and/or arson? It's protesting an idea, after all? Which is fair, but you never phrased it as such. You made absolute statements, ones you passed off as fact. ~String
I'm usually pretty clear when delineating fact and opinion. The problem is with people who don't pay attention to the difference between the two.
