The obvious Hardly unexpected. To the other, though, what, exactly, in your view, is the point of this thread?
Not with me it isn't - I was blaiming GWB for the coming (as Bush made it inevitable ) depression two years before I have even hear of Obama! All Obama can do, and is doing, is to delay GWB's depression, but his doing so greatly increase the nation's debt and will make it much worse and longer lasting when it comes. I tend to think the US and EU will never significantly recover from it, but the US has great agricultural potential and considerable coal so will survive better than the EU as an "economic colony" of Asia, mainly China and India. The simple fact is that GWB's tax relief did "trickle down" to build more modern and efficient factories* in China than the US has. That combined with cheaper Chinese labor means the US will never again export much - can't compete in industry with China even if much of the work is "outsourced" and can't compete with India for soft ware jobs. Joe American was permanently screwed by GWB, even if a trillion dollars was not already wasted on the needless war in Iraq (The bills will still be coming in for decades as the Vets are taken care of.). ---------- * For example, Warren Buffett owns 10% of BYD motors and got 10.6 billion dollar profit from his ownership share in 2Q10 alone! He is smart, so did not invest in a US factory or the US when 5 times higher GDP growth and much larger market was available in China. - GWB was extremely stupid** to think his tax relief for the wealthy would make jobs in the USA - It killed jobs as it closed the now non-competitive factories or made other factories outsource and layoff workers to avoid total failure. ** As are many Republican still advocating extension of this tax relief to the very wealthy. Their "trickle down" will be invested in Vietnam and Indonesia where labor is now much cheaper than in China. (The real wages in China are now rising about 15% each year and yet there is a labor shortage in the coastal factory cities.)
Ugh. I am not happy with Obama but I am so glad that none of Bush, McCain or Palin are president. They all strike me as being too immature to handle that responsibility wisely. They remind me of 10 year old boys. Even Obama and Clinton feel to me like they want to be like to desperately by the Washington mucky mucks. Obama and Clinton remind me of 14 year old girls. Limbaugh listeners/ anti-Obama voters also remind me of 10 year old boys and Obama voters 14 year old girls. If the people knew they were orphaned children then perhaps they would rise to the challenge of functioning like adults but they are children who don't know they are children. The rest of the world is also childish. I guess I am just their obnoxious slightly older know it all brother who is also not emotionally mature. Adults just don't look very adult to me in their emotions and on the topics of politics and religion. Many adults look like adults at their jobs and as parents. But as voters they look like children. I do prefer 14 year old girls as voters and as presidents to 10 year old boys as voters and as presidents.
The truth is - in this age of globalization and rise of Asia, you need a Brain Surgeon and not a Lawyer. Obama and the Team are out of their element. It is like a group of high school seniors from Beaumont, Texas driving in Milwaukee in the middle of winter that never drove on snow and ice. Shit happens!
I'm only embarrased at the citizens of my country that are going to be duped again into voting for the advocates of the very rich. Obama is not without his faults, but he's doing the right things, not going far enough, but at least it's the right direction. He only needs more power in the senate to accomplish what needs to be done.
Would you really change your vote?? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The Unstable and The Unable
Hay - I have done brain surgery, several times (only on Rhesus money) Perhaps that why I have posted several plans better than those adopted by the government and foresaw the coming depression years before most even thought US might slip into a bad recession?
Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. George Santayana, Life of Reason (1905) vol. 1, Introduction US (Spanish-born) philosopher (1863 - 1952) Seems to well describe the right wing of American politics. Unfortunately, there is no reason in much American politics, but there is a lot of misinformation and deception. I think we have forgotten our aim.
Exactly....that means we need a physicist that also does brain surgery...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Yes, understanding and managing Complexity requires a lot of brain power....not political power....even an idiot can get political power...ask Palin....
If that's what it comes down to .... Indeed. Frustrated, perhaps, but not embarrassed. (I don't know, man, what are we supposed to say? I had much higher hopes for this thread.)
The thread failed because you posted it on the wrong forum. I came here looking for intelligent discussion but have yet to find it. It's all just a bunch of partisanship and rhetoric. Instead of weighing both sides of an argument (a crucial ingredient to intelligent discussion) and maybe once in a while admitting, "Well, you might have a point there," people here banter back and forth over snarky issues. People here accuse the other side of something and then proceed to do the same. - They accuse the other side of being partisans and extremists but fail to recognize the same on their own side - They accuse the other side of being given to partisan rhetoric but then proceed to spout rhetoric themselves - They call the other side "brainwashed" and "imbeciles" yet have nothing to say other than spouting talking points - They see their own policy as being "right" and "good" and the policy of the other side as being "insidious" or "idiotic" rather than just a different opinion or different approach - They demand that President Obama's detractors pay him respect -- at least to his office -- yet then go on to continually villify President Bush - They call President Obama's detractors "extremists," "disloyal," and "disrespectful" but seem to forget about all the signs of George W. Bush sporting a Hitler mustache Come on, people! Don't you see this type of ridiculously slanted partisanship -- from either side -- is shallow and fracturing our nation? Stop it already with the rhetoric and the name calling and the blame shifting. Hear the other side out. Weigh what they have to say with an open mind. Say things like, "I see the point you're trying to make; however..." or "That's a fair point, but I think..." Instead of just writing someone's opinion off as "insidious," "wrong," "moronic," or "sinister," stop and try to put yourself in that person's head. Ask yourself, "OK, why does he think that way?" For the good of the nation, for crying out loud, people, think objectively!
Sounds like you've been listening to Peter Schiff. He's running for the Senate. I like Schiff, he's incredibly honest and he's practical, without spin, a fiscal technician who knows how things work on the ground in real time. He's also a registered 'constitutional republican' who doesn't take money from corporate sponsors. Problem is everyone votes by party which is why 3rd party candidates are not given their fair share of a chance. Everyone is mesmerized by telegenic puppets and vague platforms like 'change' and 'yes we can' even as they go about faithfully with corporate plans. Obama's health care reform will make the insurance and pharmaceutical companies more money. The 'pull out of Iraq' leaves 50,000 troops on the ground. Afghanistan is a money wasting mess and now Pakistan is on the brink of a meltdown. Obama's stimulus package is creating as much as a deficit as Bush's. In short he is simply continuing much of Bush's policies. Has everyone drunk the cool aid?:shrug: Both parties work for the same powerful individuals and not the american people. Obama blames Bush for the fiscal disaster but doesn't mention Clinton. They all had a hand in this. So the the big boney fingers pointing at each other from both parties is only a political ploy so they can keep their jobs in office, which is their goal, to hold your seat and that of your party, 'truth', 'common sense', and even the constitution, or whatever is left of it, is naturally compromised for whispering the sweet nothings the people want to hear. The american people have been duped and duped again into thinking that a man is as good as his branding (republican or democrat) and then they allow this branding to determine their choices. So what is Obama's problem? I don't think Obama has a problem, I think the american people have a problem. Obama's done his job by pandering to powerful interests that helped him gain his seat. Golf anyone? When the American people grow up then so will their political choices.
Victimization, the hard way Eugene Robinson wrote on Friday: According to polls, Americans are in a mood to hold their breath until they turn blue. Voters appear to be so fed up with the Democrats that they're ready to toss them out in favor of the Republicans -- for whom, according to those same polls, the nation has even greater contempt. This isn't an "electoral wave," it's a temper tantrum .... .... In the punditry business, it's considered bad form to question the essential wisdom of the American people. But at this point, it's impossible to ignore the obvious: The American people are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats .... .... The nation demands the impossible: quick, painless solutions to long-term, structural problems. While they're running for office, politicians of both parties encourage this kind of magical thinking. When they get into office, they're forced to try to explain that things aren't quite so simple -- that restructuring our economy, renewing the nation's increasingly rickety infrastructure, reforming an unsustainable system of entitlements, redefining America's position in the world and all the other massive challenges that face the country are going to require years of effort. But the American people don't want to hear any of this. They want somebody to make it all better. Now. There isn't anything real or even useful the politicians can tell us right now. People don't want to hear reality. It's too depressing, or too complicated, or too exclusionary ... too something. It is entirely possible that we are watching mass neurosis in motion. To the one, Americans are sick of how things are going. To the other, it's not so bad yet that they have no choice but to change. So they take it out on politicians while setting themselves up with politicians to be angry at. Throw the bums out. No, wait, that guy doesn't have enough experience. Right there we see a conflict: "experience" includes learning to play by the rules that American voters so disdain. It's almost as if we send people to Washington in order to have someone to hate. Watching the news can still be instructional, though not as it once was. People might still watch, but they should not expect to learn what's actually going on, except in the most vaguely-defined terms. That is, an oil rig caught fire, there was a flood in Pakistan, and so on. But when it comes to politics, the economy, and the things that affect so many of the decisions Americans make, it seems more useful to view the news in the context of keeping up with whatever lie we're expected to believe. That way, if you hear it on the street, or by the water cooler, or over a pint at the pub, you'll know a little more about where it comes from and why. Not that this is helpful, in the end, but what is helpful just isn't going to happen. Americans aren't going to turn off the damn TV. They're not going to stop flocking to crazy information sources, so that the mainstream media feels it must compete with a matching product. They're not going to laugh at all politicians instead of just the opposition. And, let's face it, if they boycotted the advertisers—or any company actively contributing to the world's problems in some significant manner—there would be nobody left to buy from. Oh, sure, there are some companies here and there, but as they grow to meet increasing demand .... Yeah, it's possible to dig out of this, but it's a long, complicated effort. And the American people just don't seem to be in for long, complicated efforts. Even those that bring us spectacular footage of people being killed around the world get boring after a while. It's like a form of battered person syndrome; the people are rendered unable to escape their circumstances, and in many cases not only justify, but abet the abuse. ____________________ Notes: Robinson, Eugene. "The spoiled-brat American electorate". The Washington Post. September 3, 2010. WashingtonPost.com. September 7, 2010. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/02/AR2010090203992.html
@Tiassa Great post Tiassa. I couldn't agree with you more. So what now? Where do you think the population is going with this? The reality may be too depressing but sticking their heads in the sand will only lead to further disaster. Do Americans have to almost lose everything to wake up from their stupor? I think there needs to be more grass-roots solutions outside of the grand political system, more local and state solutions as opposed to looking to the political elite for real change. Maybe if everyone refused to go to the polls and refused to pay their taxes they would finally get the picture. I know that sounds radical but at this point I don't think american citizens can afford anything less than radical.
Still as true as when I said it the week he won the election. Obama's legacy is to be the first Black American President who (surprise!) didn't turn out to be the end of the world- by having a black President. Obama falls somewhere between Carter and Clinton- he got the job of the time done and accomplished all goals those times demanded. He wasn't a great President but he was an effective President. Anything more than that is a bonus.
Tiassa's link to Robson's Washington Post article is well worth reading. It ends with: "It's easy to blame politicians for selling a bunch of snake oil. But the truth is that all they're doing is offering what the public wants to buy." Which is the fundamental problem, perhaps of all democracies, with inadequately educated populations. (Most can not think for themselves, but follow the views sold them on TV which the wealthy self-servingly compose.) This problem lead me a few months ago to start a thread* which asked if democracy was a stable (sustainable) form of government. It appears to be in Scandinavia where education is good and universal, but in the US education is locally funded so only the richer neighborhoods have good schools and qualified teachers. I noted only one slight error in the article. The articles states: "The American people are acting like a bunch of spoiled brats ...." After decades of getting everything they wanted from foreign underpaid workers slaving away long hours in dingy factories for mere green pieces of paper printed by the US government, Americans ARE spoiled brats. It was a nice party while it lasted, but those foreign workers are rebelling now. Demanding and getting to enjoy more of the fruits of their labors. For example China's Foxcomm, world's largest maker of electronics like the iPod, etc. have recently gotten 30 to 35% salary increases, improved housing, more time off for visit home, etc. yet not enough workers are willing to leave their villages to come to coastal factories - Thus, Foxcomm, is closing two coastal factories and relocating their production to new ones in the interior. China has in this and the next 5 year plan scheduled the building of 100 new interior cities, each for about 1 million population. One of the first, White Horse Village, has been completed and more than a dozen others are in late stages of construction. Thus, there are good paying jobs in the interior now constructing these new cities (and great internal industrial demand for everything a modern city needs from new power plants to subways to airport control towers) Thus the average REAL increase in Chinese salaries is more than 15% per year. China's huge investment in High Speed Rail, HSR, is providing many jobs in the interior too. (In a few years China will have the fastest trains in the world and more miles of HSR than the rest of the world's total!) The spoiled brats are just beginning to understand that the good times are over. They must now produce to consume. Much harder times are still to come. (A run on the dollar before Halloween 2014, quickly followed by a deep, long-lasting, depression). China is not only switching to a domestic economy, instead of an export oriented one, but also is reducing (by about 100 billion in last 6 months) the amount of green paper it will hold. In a few years the US's green paper will be nearly worthless. No longer accepted as payment for the "good times." The temper tantrum the spoiled brats will throw will be very destructive with totally unpredictable termination – quite possibly a general on a white horse ending democracy. The only thing one can be sure of is, it will be bloody and ugly. ------------- * http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2577831&postcount=15 PS Obama will get the blame, but the policies of GWB made the coming depression unavoidable (as I predicted while GWB had nearly two years left in his term). I expect that Obama will be able to delay the start of the depression until his first (and only) term ends but at huge cost to the US in increased debt.
Even "educated" people vote foolishly. It has much more to do with marketing than whether or not a person knows his ABCs or can do college algebra. People believe what they see on TV, whether they're college educated or high school dropouts. And education should be locally funded. Those foreign underpaid workers would not have jobs otherwise. What's worse, a job in a dingy factory getting paid 25 cents an hour or...no job at all? Let them! And they'll lose their jobs. The world is full of cheap labor. If the people in China start demanding higher wages, there are plenty of other workers in India, Vietnam, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. willing to do those jobs for less. Who cares? China's problems are often ignored, but the fact is, China is largely a peasant country with a peasant-based economy. There is a huge divide between the classes. Interior factories and high speed rail will do nothing to address that fundamental conundrum. And Americans do produce! Americans are the most productive people on Earth. The United States is the world's powerhouse when it comes to productivity and manufacturing. The old "Nothing is made in America anymore" myth is just that -- a myth. People believe it because when they go to Walmart and pick up a plastic piece of junk off the shelf and turn it over they see, "Made in China." But that's just it -- it's junk. The high quality goods are made in the USA. See here for more information: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/the-myth-of-us-industrys-demise.aspx The sky is falling! The sky is falling! A deep, long-lasting depression will only come if the current Administration continues its irresponsible and myopic spending and economic policies. Ha ha, yeah right. Money is money -- doesn't matter if it's green, pink, or purple. If you've got something to sell, you'll take my money. Only an imbecile wouldn't. Ummm...yeah...anyone around here old enough to remember how everyone was saying in the late 80's/early 90's that Japan would economically take over the world? Everyone was in a state of panic. Didn't happen. Neither will any of this other stuff you're pitching. Ahhhh! There it is! The blame game. I was beginning to wonder when it would rear its ugly head. Blame GWB for everything bad, give President Obama either a pass for shortcomings or credit for anything good that happens. - George Bush knocked my garbage cans over! - George Bush caused my marriage to break up! - George Bush got me fired from my job! - George Bush caused my transmission to go out! Myth: We're in a global depression caused by GWB. Reality: The economy is cyclical. It ebbs and flows. Right now it's ebbing, but it will soon flow again. And no President -- Republican or Democrat -- has much control over it. Come on, dude -- either get some new material or learn to think a bit more objectively. Politics is not a team sport -- you don't have to root for your "team" no matter what happens.
