The Battle of Midway was the Turning Point of WWII

Discussion in 'History' started by Buffalo Roam, May 9, 2010.

  1. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually Japan never planned an invasion of the US. They didn't even want Midway for any strategic reason.
     
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  3. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    They didn't plan an invasion of the US ( yet ), but Midway taken away their ability to strike for a while IF they wanted to.
     
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  5. flakeyairportchunks Registered Senior Member

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    I don’t ignore the Pacific War at all; I just don’t think it should be given the disproportionate amount of attention it receives.

    I can’t quite extrapolate any meaning to your second point. Who is this we? You’re saying that the only reason the war in Europe is of any concern is because of British interests? So the Holocaust irrelevant? Poland irrelevant? France irrelevant? Greece irrelevant?

    The Pacific hasn’t been delegated to a sideshow thanks to chauvinists like you, Regardless of the events that’s transpired America is given primary concern because Americans only like to read about other Americans.

    You know what pisses me off? How the man on the street has little to no idea about the Eastern Front in any form. If I were to ask the man on the street about the Winter War, Greece or some other obscure aspect of the war I would expect that but the Eastern Front was the largest theatre of the entire conflict, there is something very wrong with that indeed.

    Four out of five movies that are made about WW2 depict the war through American eyes; D-Day seems to get a ridiculous amount of attention. Hell most WW1 films I’ve seen have followed the AEF which is more than a little bit offensive considering the brevity of their involvement.

    Ok now you’ve lost it. This comment really exposes your naivety. How was the Pacific more gruesome than the Eastern Front? Do you have idea of what sort of atrocities were committed by both Germany and Russia against military and civilian targets? Both sides practised industrialised murder on a scale never before seen. There was no Japanese Einsatzgruppen, there were no Japanese POW camps approaching the sort fielded by the Germans or Russians, the Japanese or American soldiers never had to contend with frostbite as a result of the Arctic climate (I’d imagine you’d prefer a week on a tropical island than on a frozen tundra). And lets not get into the holocaust because you know your position is entirely indefensible, you brought up crimes against civilians first my friend so don’t claim irrelevance.
     
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  7. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Well Shogun, the Japanese specifically planned to avoid invading the US.

    Their plan was mainly 3 phases

    The first was to cripple the ability of the US to defend against the Japanese navy or to contest the IJN for at least a year, two preferably.

    The second phase was to take as many islands as they possibly could in that year.

    And the third was to attempt a peace treaty, basically like a game of jacks, bounce the ball and grab as many jacks as you can.


    The whole reason the Japanese wanted Midway was to be a bartering chip for the new peace treaty, ie, "sign for peace and we will give you Midway back"

    Ironically the battle the Japanese wanted to use for peace would put four of their carriers at the bottom of the ocean.

    But the Japanese never even remotely considered a mainland invasion of the US.

    Their navy may have been a force to be reckoned with but as far as offenssive operations their army was terrible. For example, their main tank had around 33mm of armor (tiny) and a 57 mm cannon. The Sherman had almost twice as much armor thickness and a 75mm main gun. It had a 350 to 400 horsepower engine while the Japanese tank (type 97) had a 170 horsepower engine.

     
  8. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    Wait a second, the fact is that the Pacific war is given a tiny fraction of the attention. Almost nobody knows the true story of the Pacific war.

    4 out of 5 WW2 movies are bout Europe.

    Flake, your arguement is so incredibly dumb, Europe IS GIVEN ALL OF THE ATTENTION.

    Tell me, in the last ten years how many movies have been made after the Pacific war? And how many after the European conflict.

    What do you mean disproportionate, are you high?!? It's given hardly any credit. And it deserves infinitely more than it has. Hell, it deserves more than the European conflict.
     
  9. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    I know Japanese tanks sucks

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    Their eventual goal with the Japanese Empire once they have enough resources and the ability is to take over the world and destroy the west. They aren't very fond of the west at all.
     
  10. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    I am Jewish, Iva had relatives that survived the damned camps. Ive visited one of them. Trust me, I know more than enough about it.

    You see, for some stupid ass reason you think that no American knows the story of the European war. That is false and I am living proof of it.

    My problem is that no European knows the true story of the Pacific war, and I know that as a fact. Tell me, what do you know of what happened in the Pacific?

    The atrocities committed by Japan were so much worse. If the Japanese gased you in a concentration camps it was because they were feeling friendly that day.
     
  11. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    No it wasn't. They never even had the goal of attacking the west. That may have been a conceptual idea, but that was idea would have taken place a hundred years after Japan got what it wanted. What Japan wanted was to unite all of Asia under one flag in the "Greater Asian Co Prosperity Sphere". That was their goal for the entire war.

    Now they may have wanted to attack the west, but that would have been planned for a whole nother war.
     
  12. flakeyairportchunks Registered Senior Member

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    Can't argue with your first point except that Japan as a nation was clearly not as industrialised as Nazi Germany.

    US casualties were huge in Iwo Jima relative to other battles fought in the theatre. 7000 US dead is laughable compared to Eastern Front engagements. Let me give you an example, The Battle of Odessa is considered a fairly moderate engagement for the theatre and yet the Germans suffered over 90,000 casualties, with 17,000 dead. The Russians recorded 40,000 casualties with 16,000 dead, and let me reiterate this battle is considered moderate.

    Define great? Relative to what? Do you honestly believe that Japanese generals demonstrated a proficiency of warfare on par with their Nazi or Soviet counterparts?
     
  13. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    7,635
    Right.....

    British interests certainly played a strong role. What he CLEARLY meant was that the reason the Pacific was overlooked and the European theater was given that much attention is because USA want to please Britain and the European countries.

    You were high right?

    By territory, the Pacific was by far the largest.

    The Japanese didn't sit their prisoners down and gave them a mug of coffee, gave them a hug and asked the prisoners their life story.

    If you read about the atrocities, then you will realize the brutality of the Japanese forces.

    They were fighting in the jungle and in swamps which is arguably more dangerous.
     
  14. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    "Greater Asian Co Prosperity Sphere" the whole thing was created to oppose the west in addition to conquering East Asia. Yes, it was probably planed for another war that was what i was trying to get at. Just remember that they hated the west and wanted to enforce Japanese influence in the world and supremacy over the western cultures.
     
  15. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    How about these for atrocities?

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    Those are Chinese civilians being buried alive. Oh but I forgot, to you unless they are Europeans or Russians their lives dont matter.

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    Japanese atrocities started in 1910 in Korea. Hitler was late to the game as far as how long he committed the atrocities

    But than again, theyre not Europeans or Russians, so they don't count. You sicken me. You don't even bother to learn the history, just to twist and pervert it's meaning.
     
  16. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    I dunno what they really thought of the west. On the one hand they despised Britain, but on the other they really had no fundamental grudge with the US other than they were preventing the Japanese takeover of China.
     
  17. flakeyairportchunks Registered Senior Member

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    You can't claim you represent the average American, the average citizen of *insert county name here* is far too apathetic to be arguing over history on the internet.

    I think that's a bit hyperbole to say that no European knows the true story of The Pacific, most probably, all impossible.

    I'll summarize my thoughts on the Pacific War as concisely as possible.

    Granted that men on both sides fought with great skill and honour, I'm not robbing them of that much, but I do not feel that America and Japan were not equal combatants and that the war was quite clearly no close run affair. I also feel that the Japanese never really demonstrated a great understanding of how to wage warfare, their campaigns were uncoordinated, their doctrine confused and irrational and their technology and training largely inadequate. The U.S on the other hand excelled in these regards, demonstrating a massive disparity between the two combatants.
     
  18. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    However, they had the best navy at the beginning of the war.

    Moderate in terms of casualties, but not in the terms of the strategic victory gained.

    Actually they did, seeing they conquered vast amounts of territory very quickly and over harsh terrain as well. I don't think sending Zerg rushes with cannon fodder is a very brilliant strategy.
     
  19. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    There are things that you hear about unless you know enough Japanese and read enough about their culture.
     
  20. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    The admirals? Hell, the Germans did not have admirals with as great a skill level as the Japanese.

    The soviet generals?!? they needed generals? There basically only one real order for their troops, walk west and shoot everything that moves until you reach Berlin. That doesn't take any real skill.
     
  21. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    7,635
    There were far worst that happened...
     
  22. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    Uncoordinated......confused....irrational....inadequate training and tech.....

    Right......

    :wallbang:
     
  23. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    This guy is an utter moron. :roflmao:

    He doesn't know the first f*cking thing about the Pacific war.

    The Japanese were the inventors of effective carrier aviation. What a dumb*ss. All he knows is what his 8th grade history told him a week or two ago in class.
     

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