Dutch PM on trial for hate speech

I don't know, ask him. He probably is a racist, and that's not cool. However, all I am saying is that it is okay for the 'native' population of a country to care about their culture and take nonviolent legal actions to defend it.

The myth of multi-culturalism.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Some do. But I strongly suspect that Wilders is using fear of a few extremists for political gain.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

That doesn't even come close to addressing what I asked you. Care to try again - or ready to admit that you can't?? :shrug:

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

Tell ya what. The dutch call home their own diaspora - God if only we'd thought of this earlier with South Africa - and then we can see what the situation looks like.

 

Then what was your question?

 

Lazy guy! Go back and read it again - it's still there.

 

Wrong Bells it doesn't ban all muslims. It doesn't say that every muslim would have to leave the country what it will do is limit immigration of muslims and force the integration of the ones they have!

Also I didn't miss that 'I guess if you are anti-Muslim' and it offends me. Its that same accusatory bullshit that makes it impossible for anyone to be critical of a religion that at the moment has slipped into the danger zone. So for that remark you deserve a good 'fuck you'. There isn't a muslim who knows me that would call me 'anti muslim' and that even includes members of this site. Just because I refuse to pretend that there is a problem brewing doesn't make me a racist and to accuse people of that is an ingrained PC brain dead response.

You say he is discriminating well I hate to tell you this but most muslim countries have discriminatory laws, according to you the way the west profiles for terrorists is also discriminatory but necessary nonetheless.

Bells: So you think it is acceptable to discriminate against a whole group of people? If his comments had been about Jews or Gays, would you be saying the same thing?

Bells there have been attacks against people in the netherlands based on what they have to say about islam!!!! Do you get that he hasn't just pulled this out of nowhere? That there was a problem before he even came on the scene? Do you understand that there is a problem in there society? Jews were attacked based on propaganda but there have been very real attacks against the values and life of people in the west so don't pretend as if this is some racist bullshit that comes from nowhere. Its interesting that you never addressed this part of my post:

What about Theo Van Gogh (yes a relative of van gogh) the film maker and writer was stabbed to death by a muslim because some muslims were offended by his book 'Allah', after his murder the Dutch Complaints Bureau for Discrimination on the Internet received many complaints about websites praising the murder and making death threats against other people. Is it this kind of hatred that Wilders is being accused of inciting? Wilders didn't create the problem between Dutch society and muslims it was already there and he was addressing what he felt were concerns or fears. Why is that wrong? I mean the problem with this is that if they do not halt immigration and force integration then you WILL have a right wing nationalist backlash that will grow ever larger. All he has done is say out loud what everyone else was thinking. I mean what do you think is going to happen when the freedom party wins a majority vote? To bring up allusions of Hitler is incorrect unless you are saying that even to think of halting immigration amounts to exterminating them altogether. They are having this same discussion in England and France. Denmark has already added incredible immigration restrictions and it affects mostly muslims. Why because there was so much anger after the cartoonist attack that they fear the response of their own population against other muslims, better to deal with the problems they presently have than compound them by bringing in more!

Its not his immigration policy that angered muslims but his statements about the islamification of the netherlands and his mistrust of Islam because of the spread of radical extremists. If his sentiments are hate speech then please someone clue Michael because he wouldn't be able to say anything critical of Islam! Is that the world we are reaching for? What do you think will happen when this get's underway? "The British National Party (BNP) has joined forces with far-right groups in a new European Alliance of National Movements." Read the article http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8356284.stm

Well done Bells for sticking your head in the sand and not addressing the full extent of my post!!

Bells: Something you should take up with your Government. The man was banned from entering the UK, wasn't he?

He was banned when he was going around talking about that stupid documentary of his but he is not banned from the UK and the only reason why he was banned from the talks was because they were afraid of the response from their own muslim population! Extortion is a bitch isn't it?

Bells: Prior to extermination, Hitler's proposals were also similar.


Oh really! Is that why Israelis are barred from entering malaysia? Its a sorry argument Bells to say that he is automatically a hitler when the circumstances are so different. The jews were not going around killing people nor did they attempt to censor German opinion. There IS something going on in Europe Bells not to mention the world and maybe you think its helpful to cover your eyes and sing la dee da but I believe its people like you who sat around and allowed jews to be exterminated because everyone knew what was brewing within the Nazi movement and chose to ignore it (this includes many jews who refused to believe it!). So instead of stopping a disaster before it starts you decide to consider anyone and everyone a racist who addresses the fact that there is a disaster in their own bloody society. Well done!

Bells: Right.. so comparing the Qu'ran to Mein Kampf, demanded that all Muslims be deported and those born there, paid to leave, a ban on building Mosques and Islamic schools, a ban on preaching in their own Mosques in their own language, taxing Muslim women for what they wear.. You don't think that is enough to cause anger? A film that virtually described all Muslims as being terrorists and violent, comments that any Muslim who follows their Qu'ran is violent, etc..?

Of course it will cause anger Bells! So does gunning down a Van Gogh in the streets of Amsterdam!! If muslims do not want to integrate they will have to leave Bells because If they don't integrate there will be increased racism towards them! The film he made was terrible in the sense that it wasn't couched in any real context, it was a dishonest look at the quran BUT it was an honest look at radical extremism within islam.

Bells: I'm not even Muslim and I am angry. He wants to implement a white Netherlands policy. And you somehow think that is acceptable?

Bullshit! You have obviously never been to the Netherlands because it is definitely not all white, in case you haven't noticed there are lots of immigrants that are not white and also not muslim. Be honest if you are going to discuss this with me. He never once said anything about race. There are a lot of non black muslims bells! And in case you didn't notice this is the part I think he would have to re consider:

* The present Article 1 of the Dutch constitution, guaranteeing equality under the law, will be replaced by a clause stating the cultural dominance of the Christian, Jewish and humanist traditions.


Bells: So you think people are being "PC" when they state that such discrimination is wrong? Righteo..

No but it would be great if the PC brigade learned how to read instead of casting their own meaning into everything. I think people are being PC by pretending that there isn't a real problem. They neither address the problem nor do they do ever state there is a problem. I have no respect for that kind of behaviour. Unless of course you are going to go down Sam avenue and say all Europeans, the little euphemism for white people, are inherently racist! did you take the time to consider what might have created the limits of liberalism in Europe? Well did you? Did you ask why there is such a heavy attitude towards islam in Europe? Well did you? NO.

Bells: You think taxing Muslim women for their clothing is spreading radical Islam? You think banning foreign languages spoken, taught in schools and their places of religious worship is spreading radical Islam?


Well honey you will have to ask the French! Because they are the only ones who are asking for a burkha ban (wonder why

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

). So lets see. Banning foreign languages in schools. Is that what is being proposed? Or is it banning children being taught in Urdo instead of Danish and Dutch, its an attempt to not have another generation of children who cannot speak the language of the host nation but of course its racist to demand anything from a foreigner who chooses to emigrate (at least to the PC brigade). Should they encourage Dutch, French or Danish etc in mosques? Well yea considering that you have foreign imams who travel and speak to their congregation of fatwas and jihads. God forbid that anyone try and protect their own nation or culture! They have no right to do that do they Bells? They have no right to try and force a cohesive undivided culture is that your point?

Bells: Do you think trying to force all Muslims from the country is not going to spread radical Islam? People will react with violence and will be tempted to look to a more radical system of belief when faced with such abject discrimination and hatred.

Well hell bells they would have to get in first wouldn't they. Again I ask you, what are YOUR suggestions that haven't been tried in Europe thus far to integrate this particular community. If they love living in France then maybe they will lose the bloody burkha which is not mandatory in the religion unless of course they believe that their religion is higher than French culture, law and values in which case the religion then becomes a danger. By the way I recall Australia having one of the most discriminatory immigration laws in the west!! You practically had to be white to get in so stop faking the horror!

WAKE THE FUCK UP ALREADY!

 

Nope. Other immigrants tend to integrate themselves into society. There are muslims who have integrated themselves into European societies and this isn't about them. Its about those who do not. Have you noticed that Asians never seem to have this problem? Africans too also tend to integrate themselves. But I guess that observation would make muslims look different

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

This isn't a new problem bells the Dutch have been trying to integrate muslims for some 30 years! When Lee Kwan Yew forced immigration in Singapore no one called him a racist. Oh yeah I forgot we can't call asians discriminatory or mimicking nazis

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

So how do you explain the success of the Freedom Party? How is it that they are the second largest party in the netherlands? Its more than just 'a few'

 

Bells: Did you miss the part where he said that those already settled in the Netherlands would be paid to leave if need be? How about the part where immigration would be open to Western/European people.. in other words.. white people only.

This has nothing to do with integration Lucy. How that fact has escaped you is beyond me. The man is a racist and a bigot.

Still you fail to miss the big picture, THERE IS DISCONTENT WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION! THERE IS AN ISSUE AROUND MUSLIMS WHO FAIL TO INTEGRATE THEMSELVES!!! Now, you can either pretend this isn't happening and blame Wilder or you can ask the hard questions. Its easy to dismiss someone as a racist bigot and ignore the social cultural context from which all this sprang.

Have you considered the fact that there are large numbers of white European muslim converts? Would he pay them to leave too? Could he pay someone who has lived there for two generations to leave? No. Is it that you think that people living in other EU countries are also all white? Because there are blacks and asians who also live in Europe and have done so for generations. Are the Swiss meanies because they are limiting immigration of muslims AND EU citizens? Try a little harder Bells.

Bells: What do you think is causing the problem to brew? People who demand that others integrate, while making comments and spouting beliefs like he has.. would that encourage them to integrate? No. Quite the contrary. It will encourage them to dig in and turn towards the more radical aspects of their religions.

LOL. Bells, how long have there been muslims in Europe? Its different from country to country but we can say for example that both France and England have had large populations for a very long time. The tunisians and algerians in France are quite integrated for example and there wasn't all this talk of veils and fear of terrorism. The issue now throughout Europe is radical islam which has seeped into the mosques and mildewed the minds of young men who now think it their right to attack the rest of society did you miss the part where I told you of Theo Van Gogh? Should it be a concern AT ALL that there is a spread of radical islam? Should it be a concern when honor killings become the norm in a society that never heard of it 15 years ago? Hell in Denmark they actually have to send women to Sweden and give them new identities so they aren't murdered by their male relatives! Should it have bothered anyone when muslims within and outside of Europe censor our artists and intellectuals with the threat of death? Sorry Bells you are looking at where this hails from. The Danes used every liberal trick in the book to make peace with their new immigrants, when parents complained about cafeteria food they made all kindergartens halal. When the new immigrants were having a hard time learning Danish they allowed for class to be taught in their native tongue. What this all translated into was a divided parallel community that had nothing to do with Danes and Danish society. The Danes have a palestinian-danish member of parliament and the woman goes to work everyday wearing her veil! The Dutch have had similar experience and now they are sick of it. They are sick of the requests which limit their freedoms, they are sick of the killing of artists and running around looking for places to hide muslim women who are running away from their wacky religious relatives. You make the 'integrate' sound like a dirty word but its what has happened in the States and Australia for generations, its what keeps the States from having similar problems as the Europeans since muslims in the States have actually integrated. So if I understand you correctly we shouldn't make any demands upon new citizens we should just change our laws and values to suit theirs? Maybe we should allow each group to control their own areas like mini fiefdoms! Integration doesn't mean that people stop being who they are and become the other it means both parties ADAPT to each other!!!!

Bells: Profiling for terrorists is discriminatory Lucy.

Its also how its done, we profile based on race and nationality all the time in the US especially at the airport.

Bells: What about discrimination and attacks against Muslims?

Do you know when Muslims first started migrating to the Netherlands?

But tell me. What is the problem with Muslims? The greater majority living in the Netherlands live peacefully. The issue is when you get an asswipe like Wilders who come out of nowhere and uses events like 9/11 to push his own bigotry and hatred onto a populace, raising fear and tension. Are you aware that the number of attacks against Muslims in the Netherlands has increased dramatically since he came on the scene? You make it seem like it (Muslim migration in the Netherlands) is a new phenomenon. There have been Muslims in the Netherlands for several hundred years.

Attacks against muslims or anyone else isn't tolerated in Europe and we have laws against discrimination. Either you have never been to Europe or you haven't been in donkey years! I mean Europeans are such discriminatory bastards you can see muslims living, working and enjoying the social welfare system absolutely everywhere! What is being asked is that they learn the language, take off the sack and respect our freedom of speech! The netherlands have had invited muslims in the first place as cheap labor for at least 20 years now but even before this you did have muslims just not as many of them. Again I will state that this isn't about the hard working muslims who live peacefully...ITS ABOUT THE SPREAD OF RADICAL ISLAM. Its about the ideology not the fucking people, that same ideology that issues fatwas and jihads. The idea Bells is that if you force women out of their burkas and force children to speak the host language and force people to integrate themselves more into the society so that they see themselves as danish or dutch first then you limit the spread of fundamentalism. Don't blame racism on Wilders Bells, muslims are as much of a target as any new immigrant. They have attacks against Pole's in Scotland because they are seen as taking jobs, large numbers of Gypsies have been attacked in Ireland for the same reason. 9/11 isn't the issue in Europe but radical islam is. Muslims are not new in Europe but radical muslim is!!! *Please excuse me as I go and pull my hair out* I don't understand why you cannot see this. I'm not saying Wilders is a nice guy, he's not that witty or intelligent if you ask me and he certainly doesn't understand film making but that doesn't mean he should go to jail for voicing his concerns nor for pointing the boney finger at the spread of fundie sensibilities.

Bells: I would suggest you go back and read carefully what the man wants to do in Denmark. Look at who is primary supporters happen to be.

You've confused me, Wilders isn't Danish he cannot implement anything in Denmark and I know very well who his supporters are. If you want to blame anyone you should blame the liberal society that didn't demand integration of the new immigrants and continued to bring in more even when they hadn't figured out how to solve the social cultural problems that were beginning to manifest. This doesn't occur in a vacuum, I can actually remember when there was no nationalist party in Denmark! And virtually no racism save the ignorance that comes from not coming into contact with different people. The BNP won seats SOLELY because labor didn't address immigration concerns as it was deemed racist. If the liberals hadn't pussy footed over the issue there wouldn't be a problem right now....they practically paved the road for nationalist movements. See? Now we have a problem because this movement is getting stronger and louder.

Bells: So, what disaster is he trying to prevent? The Islamification of the Netherlands? Too many women wearing headscarves?

The spread of radical islam which is happening. Its not something they pulled out of their ass.


Bells: What about the Muslims who are descendants of those who migrated there since the 17th century?

Yeah what about them? I've answered this question already. There wasn't a problem with muslims before because they were much more integrated into the society.

Bells: Should they be targets of the likes of Wilders simply because of their religion?

Don't play daft. What he is suggesting is no more new immigrants from muslim nations and forcing the ones they have to integrate or leave. These are only ideas Bells they are to be looked at critically, criticized and analyzed and modified.

Bells: Don't you see what is happening in the Netherlands? His actions and words are discriminatory in the extreme. They also go against all the human rights laws and treaties that the Netherlands happen to be a party to. Your argument is tantamount to ranting about this coming doom..

Well what do you see happening Bells? Because the fact that nationalist parties are forming a block within the EU SHOULD be a concern and a sign of 'coming doom'. You are simply being an ostrich!

Bells: You are branding the majority based on the actions of the fucking few.

Well, they're Muslims and follow the same religion, so of course they must all want to murder anyone who speaks or does anything negative towards their religion? Right?

I'm not blaming the actions of a few on the whole community but these acts cause distrust among all the people and its the sole reason why moderate muslims should denounce these acts and monitor their own mosques for fundie principles as these acts WILL cast a dark shadow on all in the community. What you missed is how Theo's death deeply angered the Dutch. The Danish government were forced to implement new immigration laws right after the cartoonist attack because the Danes were so outraged. What you are suggesting is if there is a fire pour more gasoline on it and then wonder why the whole house is burning to the ground. You cannot limit racism by bringing in more of what people fear. First you have to deal with the fear, then you have to compromise with what you have to work with. in other words you have to limit immigration until you have dealt with integration.

Bells:His film was not honest at all. He used clips of terrorists attacks and then incited fear that it was heading for Europe and the Netherlands. His film and his words before and since said film was tantamount to calling all Muslims violent and deadly terrorists!

I never said his film was honest. I said the major flaw in the film is that is cast radical extremism as Islam itself which is incorrect! But if he had framed it as a look at radical extremism itself within the religion (like Wahabism) then he would have been correct.

Bells: Did you fail to notice the part where he said that the Netherlands should ban Muslim immigration but only allow Western European migrants? Who do you think he means by Western Europeans Lucy?

Did you notice that Western European people are not all white. Muslims immigrate from muslim nations bells. A muslim who was born and raised in london is an EU citizen and go wherever he likes so it doesn't include them because it cannot include them. Western European means the EU Bells and nothing more. If he had said 'white europeans' then I would agree with you but he hasn't. You are being a hysteric. You need to calm down and take a look at what it is I am trying to convey.

Now look. My post has turned into a Tiassa

 

Is failure to integrate reserved for Europeans?

 

Bells your arguing against hate which is good but in the long run ineffective. no amount of rationality will ever change a view based on an irrationality like hate with out an internal change in that person.

 

I wouldn't go that far. There are some valid reasons why Islam generates the fear it does. And the alarm isn't all recent; the Rushdie affair was 1988.

From Christopher Hitchen's piece Londonistan Calling:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/06/hitchens200706?currentPage=1

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

When I look at the above image, I feel some sympathy for Wilders. But striking back at all Muslims because of the bad ideas and misbehavior of some Muslims is wrong at its core. Same thing with the burkha debate in France. I don't think Wilders deserves jail time, but we have more expansive freedom of speech rights in the U.S. than many countries - his words could indeed be a crime there.

 

Behaving like a pompous ass likely won't get them to change their views either.

 

than why do you do it?

 

The point is, you need to ask yourself whether or not you feel like accepting minorities into your country. If you do, okay. If not, then you should take legislative action to that end.