It baffles me when parents try to instil certain moral lessons in children that are totally impractical in the adult world. For example, don't lie, don't challenge authority, own up to your mistakes, be generous and always share, etc. BULLSHIT! This got me thinking about the lessons I would tutor my children in to ensure that they are not pawns. Not that I'd ever have children (they are punks). But here are some thoughts: 1. It's OK to lie for your benefit if you are reasonably certain that you will not be exposed. One only need look at politicians and lawyers to realise that deception can be lucrative. 2. Avoid owning up to a mistake if at all possible, as people will often use that as a chance to bust you down. It's *always* the other person's fault. However, if you can't obfuscate and hide your error, admit to it loudly and curse your idiocy. You'll probably still get reamed, but at least you appear to have a strong character. 3. Never gossip about another person behind their back, no matter how tempting it may be. It's almost guaranteed to find their way back to them, or they could even be standing behind you at that very moment. And no, you can't trust your work colleague to keep a secret. 4. Never tell anyone what you are thinking or how you feel, except those you are absolutely sure you can trust. Usually your list of who you can trust consists of your parents and a spouse of at least several years. If that. 5. If a prospective girlfriend/boyfriend is cheating on her ex in order to be with you, then they are almost guaranteed to cheat on you in the future. You are nothing more than a car to them, to be traded up when convenient. 6. Never accept anything from anyone for 'free' unless necessary. Quite often the giver will consider that they are doing you a favour and inconvenience you by calling in on that debt at a later date. 7. Contrary to what you have been told, employing coercion and violence to get what you want can be legitimate. Indeed, the State often coerces individuals to force compliance and obtain tribute. Might makes right. Just make sure no-one can retaliate. 8. Some people do deserve to get beaten. These include people who wish to do you harm, invade your sanctum, or wish to separate you from the wealth you have accumulated. 8. Simply because one is an authority figure does not make them untouchable. Do not let a mere uniform or baton cow you. However, only challenge authority directly if you have a solid backing in law. Otherwise challenge it indirectly. 9. It's not a crime if nobody knows. OK, maybe it is, but if you aren't caught, no one is the wiser. 10. Do not give valuables away freely unless you benefit in some manner. Not only are you already giving to the needy in taxation, handouts merely perpetuate dependency and irresponsibility. 11. One of humanity's primary goals in life is to separate you from your money. Always be aware of the difference between your wants and needs, and whether your wants are genuine or media inspired. 12. The employee vs. employer relationship is often a game, where the employer tries to get as much out of their employees while paying as little as possible, while the employees try to get as much out of the employer while doing as little as possible. Don't feel guilty about playing 'the game', from either side. 13. Being a good little worker bee is often promoted in the media, however it's merely cheap exploitation. A worker is paid only a tiny fraction of the profits they bring in. It is much better to run your own show if you are competent. 14. If you must 'suck cock' (metaphorically speaking) temporarily to increase your standing and climb the ladder, then do so. Integrity won't keep your family fed. However, a life of servitude is a waste. Every act of servitude should be done only to strengthen your position. 15. We only live once, so don't be frightened to strive for the very top. Aiming to become president or prime minister does not seem so impossible when one considers George Bush. 16. You may be able to do wrong once, or twice, and get off scott free. But repeatedly engaging in a wrongdoing will get you caught. 17. If you cheat on your spouse even once, you will get caught. Humans love to gossip about sex and relationships. Which reminds me... 18. Humanity's greatest failing is that they can't mind their own fucking business. Safeguard your privacy. Privacy and secrecy translates to security and satisifaction. 19. Humanity's second greatest failing is feeling jealous in regards to the success of others. If you have any good fortune whatsoever, beware. There will always be people to knife you in the back just to gloat over your downfall. Celebrities and royalty are excellent examples of this. 20. Humanity's third greatest failing is that they talk shit to the nth degree. Individuals, the media, and even the scientific community can engage in deception, and often do. Always trust your own senses, experiences and perceptions over that of other individuals. 21. There is no shame in turning down a potential mate because you do not find them attractive or are not sexually compatible. However, it is the height of stupidity to select an attractive mate with a poor personality and little ambition. Sleeping with a harridan or jerk for the rest of your life is a poor prospect. 22. Trust is not automatically given in any relationship, it is earned over time through demonstrations of loyalty, affection, and respect. 23. If you must marry or have a spouse, be aware that this marriage is the foundation upon which everything else is built. A failing marriage translates into failing health, a failing career, and very little happiness. Devoting resources to ensure a happy marriage is never a waste. 24. If your spouse hits you, leave. It does not matter if you are male or female. A relationship where you are walking on eggshells is no relationship at all. 25. Show the same respect to your spouse that you would when meeting a stranger for the first time. Offer criticism sparingly, and when you do so be diplomatic. That's all for now. I'll offer up some more words of wisdom later! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
How about, Wear sunblock, don't smoke cos you'll stink like shit and don't get a tattoo till you're fifty, fuck those things date quickly and what looks super cool now is gonna haunt you for the rest of your days. And yes, I am a dad.
Heh.. Yeah.. Goodluck with that. Just a few points of contention though: So you want people to believe that your children are lying arseholes? You want people to believe your children are stupid lying arseholes? I take it you're going to be giving them a lump of coal every Christmas, Birthday and Easter? I chuckled at this one. So you want your children to be threatening, violent and lying, stupid arseholes? Which is contradictory to your previous points.. I take it you will also be receiving a lump of coal for Christmas, Birthday's, Father's Day's and Easter's? But if they employ point 7, they can get it for free! Oh wait, that would contradict point 6.. Hmm.. If said child is not in jail if previous points are to be believed. Jokes about knowing when to bend over in the prison shower apply here! Goes well with point 1. Contradicting previous points. Or lie, deny, act like a stupid arsehole, beat someone into submission or bend over backward and offer sexual favours! Hopefully the other party to the relationship won't have been brought up by the same lessons as your child. Contradicting many previous points.. Ah Mordea. That list gave me a very good laugh!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Thank Christ for small mercies. Because at this rate, your children would end up being the poster children for birth control.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
If my children are good at lying (as hopefully they will be), then people won't know that they are lying. Furthermore, I'd only encourage them to lie when the risks of being exposed are outweighed by the benefits. If being honest is more to their benefit, then so be it. But let's face it, deception is essential in order to be successful. Some call it bending the truth, others call it diplomacy. I just call a spade a spade. Also, what is wrong with being considered a lying asshole? John Howard was considered a lying asshole by many, and his lifestyle was far superior to that of an honest worker. Senior partners in law firms often make deception a profession, and they pull in six figure incomes. Oh, but I'm sure the ire of some opinionated moralistic housewife in the ghetto causes them to lose sleep at night Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!. Not at all, which is why I recommend that they try to offload the blame whenever possible. However, if they can't do this, then it's better to just admit your wrongdoing empathetically and appear apologetic. People go easier on you then. You just look like an idiot if you deny the obvious. No. Giving my children gifts would make them happy, which would make me happy. Helping your children is helping yourself. If employing coercion makes them happy and successful individuals, sure, why not? Don't parents always say that they are content with whatever their children become, as long as their children are happy? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I don't need gifts, especially from my kids. Anyway, Christmas, Father's Day and Easter are all just bullshit cooked up by businessmen to seperate you from your money (see point 11).
Oh stop right there. That's it, you just lost all credibility (you didn't have much), John Howard's lifestyle, snivelling as he shuffles along in a high panted, tragic tracksuit, doesn't get much better than that. And married to Janette. Kill me now!
I hear you mordea. Problem is if they are happy fucking over other people, Im not sure Id really want to know my kids. They can turn some of that shit on you too.
Mordea. Kids happen to be born thieves, bullshit artists and conniving little shits They'll practice those arts on you till you finally realise this is not the right way. It won't stop you from being a grubby fuck but you will implore them to clean up their act. It's called the cycle of life.
Depends on your perspective in life. If you are jealous and angry that others have more than you do, then you will assume they lied or cheated to get it. There is a difference between being considered a lying arsehole and actually being a lying arsehole. And whether that is acceptable. You seem to think it is acceptable and should be encouraged. I mean look how well Howard is doing now. The man is reviled in politics and when he lost his seat in the election (sitting Prime Minister losing his seat.. enough said), his fellow politicians were just about climbing over each other's backs to distance themselves from him. His lifestyle may be superior, but I guess one's morality has to apply here. You think it is acceptable to lie if it will be to your benefit. Not everyone agrees. How can I put this.. If you lie, you may get away with it now and possibly reap some financial benefit. But one day it will come to bite you on the arse and you'll end up being a social pariah and the butt of everyone's jokes - also possibly be attributed to a monkey in the media (eg Cartoons of Howard). Depends on what you want for your children. I'd rather my children be successful in anything they want to do without having to lie or cheat their way there. My parents didn't, I didn't and I hope like hell my children will learn from that.. Heh. And their secretaries often make even more. I am sure if your son manages to lie, cheat and beat people violently to get 'to the top', then hopefully his wife won't be living in the Ghetto cheating on him with the man who mows the lawn for $25.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! So instead of learning from their mistakes, it's better to place the blame on others? And if they can't get do that, then admit it? Again, I think my original point stands..Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Which contradicts point 6 and you would be contradicting points 10 and 11. So it would be a tad difficult for you to teach your children these lessons when you can't abide by it yourself. Of course. If your children become social pariah's who are also violent lying arseholds who happen to be a bit on the dim side and that makes them happy.. then hey, be happy bud!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If you don't need gifts from your children, then you will set the examples by never ever buying your children any gifts, so that they never become separated from their money.
The man speaks the truth! You really start to see it when they turn 3.5-4... 'Clean your room!'.. 'But it will make me too tired, Mummy and make my back hurt...' <insert wide eyed imploring look here> .. 'How did the milk end up under the couch?'.. '<Insert sibbling's name here> did it Mummy!'.. <insert imploring look here> .. 'Where and how did you get that cookie??'.. '<Insert sibbling's name here> stollled it from the cupboard Mummy!!!'.. <insert running away as mummy's eyes squint as she spots the really big lie>..
I'm neither jealous or angry. I simply realise that deception is necessary to succeed, even if that deception is just exaggerating on your resume, or feigning confidence. He seems to be doing fine to me. No doubt he will be retiring a rich man. Oh, but the peons don't like him. Boo hoo. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Reviled in politics, heh. Simply put, he was prime Minister for 10+ years, got paid for sleeping in Parliament, managed to pull off some of the most brazen stunts in history (going back on his promise not to implement GST) with very little blow back, and wined and dined on taxpayer money. Ergo: He had a good run. Everything must come to an end. Even the most honest man must retire eventually, and even the virtuous man must drop dead. The fact is that Howard was leader of a country for over a decade and made a mint while also getting benefits. Few other people can claim such a thing. Morality? Hah! Whose morality? How do they do that? Wait, don't tell me. I think I can guess. Learning from your mistakes, and placing the blame on others, aren't mutually exclusive. Exactly. If you're caught red handed, you might as well just admit to it and salvage what you can. But if you can obfuscate and lie your way out, go for it! Giving your children and spouse gifts is fine, as it benefits you. That's not really a contradiction of another rule, just a clarification. Where did I claim that one shouldn't be separated from their money?
And getting caught out in the future and being publicly denounced as a fraud. It does happen and happens quite a bit. In the end, your child will be in his/her 30's and still living at home and you'd have to support them because they would be blacklisted from Hungry Jacks to any level of employment above that. At some point in your life, you will realise that money is not everything. It is not the be all and end all. I guess you need to find yourself having lots of money to realise that.:shrug: Having lots of money did not stop my aunt from dying last week, my son falling very sick last weekend or some blonde bimbo smashing into my parents car and wrecking it to oblivion 2 days ago. *Cough* John Howard was wealthy before he became Prime Minister. How much do you think Prime Minister's make anyway?:bugeye: Not yours, obviously! Get your mind out of the gutter.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Let me put it this way. Secretaries would often have to work back and on weekends, especially if there was a big case in the works. They would often get paid 5 times their hourly rate for doing so, simply because good legal secretaries are very hard to come by. And whatever a good legal secretary wants, good legal secretary gets. Used to drive the new legal recruits nuts that the PA/Legal Secretary of the senior partners were earning twice/three times as much as they were. One of the guys I went to uni with ended up becoming a legal secretary, as did another girl in my year, simply because it paid that much better and they graduated top of their year, with full honours and awards. They did it for 2 years, bought houses and investments and then went back to being a solicitor. I don't think you quite understand what it all means though. Oh God.. You teach better by setting an example.. Think of those grubby businessmen getting rich off the money you are paying them to buy gifts for the spouse and children!
That is so cute. You think someone is going to have your children. Hang on to the dream bunkie, it could happen!! :yay:
When i bout my house (32 year ago) my brother in law offered to give me a interest free loan to buy it wit... but i had seen wit his kids how his "gifts" have strangs atached... i chose to get my loan from a bank an pay interest.!!!
Eric Erickson: Someday, maybe there will exist a well-informed, well considered and yet fervent public conviction that the most deadly of all possible sins is the mutilation of a child's spirit. Franklin P. Jones: You can learn many things from children. How much patience you have, for instance. George W. Bush: I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I had a choice, I'd rather go to war. James Baldwin: Children have never been very good at listening to their elders, but they have never failed to imitate them. Michael Levine: Having children makes you no more a parent than having a piano makes you a pianist. Stacia Tauscher: We worry about what a child will become tomorrow, yet we forget that he is someone today.
With regards to lying, it is important to distinguish between lying for security and lying as fraud. We all have the right to not disclose personal information to people when it's none of their business, and we all have the right to deter burglars with the false impression that there's a pitbull in the house. But lying for the purpose of changing someone's behavior for our own personal gain is wrong. Whether it's yelling "fire" for the perverse pleasure of watching everyone scramble for the exits, or it's telling someone you're going to invest his five hundred bucks in a fabulous business opportunity when you're really going to pay off your bookie. Unfortunately we Americans live in a culture in which the government trains us to lie. Income tax, zoning regulations, welfare laws... these are all designed for the specific purpose of teaching us how to game the system. It becomes difficult to distinguish lying for our own security (I need to sell my tacos to pay the mortgage) and lying to manipulate the behavior of government agents (of course I have a completely separate kitchen with stainless-steel appliances that I use only for business). So we get into the fuzzy area where it's alright to lie to authority figures because we don't recognize their authority and regard their motives as coercion, against which we may legitimately rebel. Then how do we tell our children it's okay to lie to the cops because if we tell them the truth they'll arrest us even though the law they're using is unconstitutional and we're waiting in vain for the Supreme Court to overturn it--and at the same time it's not okay for them to lie to us because if they tell us the truth we'll ground them even though our reasons seem just as preposterous to them as the cops' reasons seem to us? Parents are authority figures.
The problem is that life is complicated. There are no absolutes and every rule has exceptions (including this one!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!). I covered that in my first post. In order for an economy to work, cheating must be kept to a minimum. I have always found it wise to admit my mistakes. Perhaps I'll never be a politician but I don't regard that as a career failure. Admitting a mistake is a form of honesty. This is a common mistake. People marry people who cheated on their spouses in order to start the new relationships, and they don't understand that that behavior is a character flaw that won't go away. The other side of this is: Never loan more money (or other value) to a friend than you would be willing to simply give them. That way if they don't repay you it will not end the friendsihp. Nonetheless friends do each other favors. You start out small and if they repay in kind then you keep going. Favors aren't the same as money. Everyone has a little extra time and energy they can devote to a favor, but most of us don't have very much spare money. This harkens back to my previous post. The government sets some absolutely shitty examples. The very concept of war implies that violence is an acceptable way to resolve a dispute. The libertarian philosophy is clear: No one has the right to initiate violence, but everyone has the right to use it to protect themselves from someone else who initiated it. Nonetheless a civilized society tries to limit violence. Instead of shooting people who break into your house, fortify your doors and windows, install cameras, set alarms, etc. You never know when that burglar might simply be starving because the shit-for-brains government threw his daddy in jail for selling pot to a consenting adult. "Crimes" are defined by the government. What you need to avoid is doing evil, whether it's legal or not. I prefer to hand money and food to the needy because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than letting thirteen layers of bureaucrats siphon off 80% of it and then give half of what's left over to people who are not needy but have merely learned to game the system. Besides, generosity releases endorphins. Just letting three desperate drivers pull in front of me in morning traffic makes me feel so good that I can stand my job until noon. Then I go out and give three bums a dollar each and a McDonald's coupon. Even if you don't, the one person who will always remember is YOU. It changes WHO YOU ARE. Do you really want to be that kind of person, someone who betrays the trust of the one who loves you most? If you feel like cheating, have a talk with your spouse and get it out in the open. Figure out why you want to do it and give him/her a chance to change the relationship to a healthier one. Otherwise you become one of those people who cheats, and no sensible person will ever trust you. You'll spend the rest of your life in relationships with people who aren't sensible! I would temper that. This is one of those absolutes where you have to be on the lookout for the exceptons. We all do shameful things we regret on rare occasions. If it's a long marriage and it happens once and you can understand what provoked it (generally it's not you and if it is you it may be because you also did something shameful and regrettable) then it's not unreasonable for you to consider extending grace and forgiveness, if you can reasonably see a way to help the spouse so it never happens again. The vow "for better and for worse" need not be taken to the absolute extreme, but it does imply a reasonable amount of forgiveness. Nobody's perfect but we all have the capacity to forgive. If somebody puts you in the hospital then of course that's probably a deal-breaker, but violence comes in a spectrum from merely annoying to frightful.
Fraggle, Thanks for responding without being derogatory. Precisely. Current social systems in the West reward deception, and punish honesty. If my children would be more successful and happy by engaging in well-executed deception, isn't it my responsibility as a parent to teach them how to deceive? Teaching them that honesty always pays seems counter-productive and irresponsible. I guess I would explain to my children that I have their best interests at heart (even if I may sometimes be misguided). The government does not. As such, they should follow my lead until they can hack it alone. Alternatively, I could just point out that if they lie convincingly enough to me, I can't punish them. If my six year old can get a lie past an agile mind like mine, then they are doing well, and are well prepared to deceive in the adult world. That's situational. For example, if you're in a car accident, admitting fault (even 'partial fault') is basically asking to get fucked in the ass by the law and your insurance company. Like I said earlier, if honesty pays, be honest. But if offloading the blame is the better option, then don't feel too guilty about doing it! The problem is that accepting a favour from a friend puts you in that awkward position where at a later date they can say 'Well, you owe me!' It's better not to owe anyone a debt if you can avoid it. Or police officers. Police officers don't wear batons and guns just for show. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! So if someone breaks into your house and declares that they only intend to steal your stuff (and not harm you), you wouldn't have a right to initiate violence? From what I have seen, handouts merely perpetuate dependancy. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Give him anything better, and the elite will extort it out of him. That's true to an extent, although the government could conceivably implement programs to get these people back on track. If it's a one off thing in a twenty year marriage, then yeah, it could be forgiven. But I find that people who do it once and get away with it make a habit out of it. I find that women in particular often have a habit of hitting men, and it usually goes unchallenged.
mordea, i admire your ideas about marriage, but honestly, when i read a lot of your points i thought, "great, another generation of assholes." hopefully your kids will grow up and learn on their own that lying and a self-serving agenda isn't the way to go.
This list looks like a template for selfish individualism. It says little more than: "Look out for number one. It's all about you. You don't owe anybody anything. Never give anything to anybody unless there's something in it for you. That includes respect, love, money and everything else." I pity society for having to deal with the brats your philosophy will produce. That so many Americans apparently think as you do is one reason why America's standing in the world, ethically, financially, in terms of power and influence is declining. Too many of you just can't see past yourselves. Edit to add: from reading above, it seems mordea is Australian. Looks like that US individualism is rubbing off onto Australia's Generation Y, too. Too bad.
