Piracy

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Norsefire, Jan 10, 2010.

  1. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    I never earned a cent, I post them for free on various forums. But if I sold them, I would sell the real thing, in a nice frame.
     
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  3. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

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    I'll stop pirating when my local tv channels show the same shows that I like at the same fucking time as you lucky pricks in the US. Or their websites allow me to watch them.
     
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  5. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So ....not only are you guilty of pirating shows, you're now beginning to use threats and coercion to get what you want? Hell, why stop there, why not make threats of terrorism and/or assassination?

    Baron Max
     
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So ......is that your way of defending piracy via the Internet???? Just because you do it, then every other artist should happily follow your lead?

    Baron Max
     
  8. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    already noted that i made no mention of "pirating" myself, rather i was referring to those who pirate my music--so keep your adolescent accusations to yourself.

    you clearly know so much about the "industry," norse--unlike me: i've only been dealing with record labels for over 15 years; have toured europe and the u.s. countless times; and know hundreds (realistically, thousands) of musicians personally all throughout the u.s., europe, japan, australia, new zealand, and elsewhere who couldn't care less about piracy--so tell me how it all works. how adequately are musicians compensated by these "companies"? and what exactly are these "companies": what do they do? who are they comprised of? how much "work" do they actually do? tell me all about it, norse, as you are clearly the authority here--and you are so passionately concerned about the plight of these "companies" and these mythical "musicians" who are riled up by piracy.
     
  9. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    So if the musicians don't care about the piracy problem, then they also shouldn't care if the record label companies simply cut the artists' fees and royalties so as to cover all of the cost of the piracy.

    Pretty neat idea, huh? The producers care about the piracy, the musicians don't care, so .....let the musicians' apathy take care of it. I'll bet that when the musicians start losing money, they'll begin to care a freakin' lot, huh??

    Baron Max
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    6,231
    A much better example would be an electrical engineer who wanted a TV like his neighbor's, so he takes his neighbor's TV apart to see how it works (with his neighbor's permission) and builds one exactly like it for himself - then the TV company complaining that he "stole" the TV by building his own copy of it rather than buying one that was made in their factory.

    Or, if you want a somewhat more realistic example, you could consider the case of furniture. If I see that my friend just bought a nice new coffee table for his living room and decide that I want one just like it, it would not be theft for me to take careful measurements of his new table with my tape measure, go to the lumber store to buy some wood, and build myself a copy of his table. I have not "stolen" anything. Breaking into the furniture store at night and carrying a table off in my truck would be stealing. Similarly, making a copy of a friend's CD is not theft. Shoplifting the CD from a music store would be theft.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  11. shorty_37 Go! Canada Go! Registered Senior Member

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    All I can say is......Admit nothing!!

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  12. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Most artists sell originals. In a gallery.
     
  13. PsychoTropicPuppy Bittersweet life? Valued Senior Member

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    1,538
    I'm a piraaate. I like it the JAck Sparrow way. Arrrr I arrt pirate!
     
  14. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Odd. Most of the artists I know would love nothing better than to sell some numbered/registered/legal prints to make even more money. Ahh, but they can't ....because everybody and his brother has "prints" that they've pirated off the Inter-fuckin'-net.

    Baron Max
     
  15. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    Why are you so hung up on the symantics of the issue? Can't you read "into" what some people are saying without making an issue out of individual words and the individual meanings of those words?

    Do you support piracy and copyright infringement in the music and software industry? Yes or no?

    Baron Max
     
  16. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Someone said that they like to copy music to try it before they buy it, and Norsefire responded that this was akin to stealing a TV from Walmart to try it before buying it. The huge, obvious problem with this rebuttal is that stealing a TV from walmart harms walmart, while making a copy of music is of no perceivable harm to anyone. When I copy a CD, the company that made the CD is no worse off than they were before, just like a company that makes tables is no worse off if I measure a friend's table and make a copy of it using my own materials and labor. That's why it's important for people to distinguish between copyright infringement and theft; thinking of them as equivalent leads to dumb-ass arguments and analogies, like Norsefire claiming that copying a song to see if you like it is equivalent to stealing a TV.
    I generally don't have an ethical problem with individuals making copies of things for their own personal, non-commercial use, especially if they're doing it to find out if they like the product and intend to purchase it if they like it. See the above table example. I do have a problem with people or companies making copies of things for commercial purposes.

    Since I answered a question for you, maybe you will answer one for me: Do you think I'm stealing furniture if I measure a friend's table and build my own copy of it? If you don't, then please explain why you think it is stealing for me to build a copy of a friend's music CD.
     
  17. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    That's piracy, regardless of how they use it or even if they intend to purchase it later, etc. Piracy, copyright infringement, all of that legalese, ...piracy is simply wrong. By making little silly excuses for it does nothing but encourage more of it and in the long run, everyone suffers.

    I can't answer that without knowing if the design of the table was copyrighted or not, or protected from copy infringement, etc. Was it? Is it?

    You're taking something that doesn't rightfully belong to you that's protected by copyright laws, rules, etc. Why are you trying all these siily excuses, reasons, etc? Is it because you know it's wrong, but you're seeking some excuse to keep doing it?

    Baron Max
     
  18. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    So why, specifically, do you think it's morally wrong for someone to copy music or software in order for them to see if it meets their needs before purchasing it? It's easy to see why it's morally wrong to steal things from people; it harms them by depriving them of their possessions. It's not clear to me how it harms anyone if a make my own copy of something using my own materials and labor in order to evaluate it prior to purchasing.
    I am not "taking" anything. I am making something for myself, using my own materials and labor. You insist on trying to use the wrong words to describe what's happening because it allows you to dodge having to actually explain what's morally/ethically wrong with the behavior. Everyone agrees that taking things which don't belong to you is wrong, so when you say things like "You're taking something that doesn't rightfully belong to you," you're trying to pose an argument that's impossible to argue with. But that "argument" rests on the assumption that making a copy of something is the same as stealing it. In fact, as has already been explained at length, the ethical reasons why it's generally considered wrong to steal things don't apply well to making copies.
    You say they are "silly", but you have yet to offer any sort of reasoned explanation as to why; you just keep parroting the factually-wrong statement "piracy is stealing" over and over again. When it was pointed out that piracy is in fact not the same as theft, you said:
    Well no, I can't "read into" it, because so far as I can tell you and Norsefire really seem to genuinely believe that copying something is exactly the same as stealing it, to the point where Norsefire even said that copying music to try it before you buy it is the same as stealing a TV to try it before you buy it.
    Why would it matter? You either think that it's morally wrong to copy something or not, right? Or are you saying that whether or not something is legal is all you need to know to determine whether or not something is moral?
     
  19. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    When did "morality" enter into this issue of piracy?

    Morality? Osama bin Laden and his buddies thought it was morally right to fly two planes into the Twin Towers. Morality? That's whatever anyone wants to claim as moral or immoral.

    No, morality ain't got nothin' to do with this conversation. And if it does, then count me out of the discussion.

    Baron Max
     
  20. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    You're the one who said it was "simply wrong." Or did you mean to merely say it was illegal? If that's all you're claiming, then I think it will be a very short and uninteresting discussion.
    Hahaha. So maybe you shouldn't have come to the Ethics and Morality forum.
     
  21. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Obviously the companies are riled up by piracy, or they wouldn't be making such a big deal. And people completely ignore the demands of the owners of the property and taking it anyway. That is stealing and illegitimate.

    Or take the case of software; people pirate lots of software, OS's, Photoshop, etc

    So the companies that work hard to make it don't even make money from the copy that you took, unlawfully, and use without paying for it. The agreement is that you pay and you are licensed to use the software, and you don't pay and yet still use it, illegally. That is theft, and piracy.

    Y'all's justifications are pathetic. Though like I said, I would never expect criminals to give a damn about the damage they cause, anyway. That's what makes you guys pathetic.

    Here's the thing: get some standards of decency, and start following the damn rules. And quit with the "x musicians don't care". Then you can take their music, and don't apply it to everyone.

    And musicians don't care? Right...

    http://www.musicunited.org/3_artists.html


    ""As an artist who has dedicated his life to music and the music business, I have seen what illegal music copying has done and continues to do to new and established musicians. I understand why people download music, but for me and my fellow artists, this is our livelihood. When you make an illegal copy, you're stealing from the artist. It’s that simple. Every single day we're out here pouring our hearts and souls into making music for everyone to enjoy. What if you didn’t get paid for your job? Put yourself in our shoes!" Sean (P. Diddy) Combs"

    ""Making an album is a team effort, so when somebody pirates a record that not only affects the artist, but also the people who worked on it like co-producers, co-writers and musicians.” Shakira"

    "If you create something and then someone takes it without your permission, that is stealing. It may sound harsh, but it is true." Mary J. Blige

    "My producer, my co-writers, my musicians have a big part in my albums. When you download music illegally, those folks don’t get paid." Brad Paisley

    "It may seem innocent enough, but every time you illegally download music a songwriter doesn’t get paid. And, every time you swap that music with your friends a new artist doesn’t get a chance. Respect the artists you love by not stealing their music. You’re in control. Support music, don’t steal it." Dixie Chicks



    Quit trying to rationalize yourselves. What you are doing is wrong. Musicians and companies don't like it, it is hurtful to the economy, it is unjust and unfair on people who do follow the rules, and it's sad and pathetic.

    Honestly, it's as if a student in a school goes through the trouble of studying to earn his A where another one just gets it handed to him. That's a slap in the face.

    There are people that pay for their music; so why don't you?
     
  22. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not seeing any "musicians" in that list that would merit the name. The prospect of taking food out of the mouths of P. Diddy and the Dixie Chicks is hardly a deterrent to me, although the flip side of that coin is that I've never pirated any of their "music."

    Actually that has never been established. There's every possibility that the increased exposure that artists get through music sharing - for free - outweighs any losses they incur. That's why record companies have long spent huge sums of money to broadcast their music nationwide, for free, despite the ubiquity of home recording devices. Probably it hurts established, famous musicians like P. Diddy, who don't need piracy to gain exposure, and helps newer, less established acts that don't have a record company media machine plastering their face on every exposed surface in every city in the world.

    The reality is that if record companies and musicians (mostly the former) want that level of control over their products, they need to produce things that aren't easily replicated and distributed by anybody, anywhere. Which is why you've seen them switch their revenue model to focus on live performance; at this late date the actual recorded music is more of a promotional tool for the concerts, than an actual profit-making enterprize in its own right. In which case, they won't really care about piracy: we'd just be doing the jobs of them and the radio stations for free.

    What seems to bother the record companies is not so much the money - they don't appear to be going out of business - but the control. Even if they make more money off of a market with lots of piracy than one without such, they dislike the idea because they can't ensure that the acts they've invested heavily in will get lots of exposure, and vice-versa. They have to actually cater to people's musical tastes as they are, instead of counting on a monopoly on music promotion to dictate what ends up popular.

    How?

    Sure, but music listening is not school. Those students will presumably receive opportunities for career advancement based on their grades, and so the cheater's grade will adversely impact the non-cheaters.

    But listening to pirated music doesn't diminish the enjoyment that someone else gets out of listening to legally-purchased music.

    The presumption that music pirates don't pay for music is preposterous. Every music pirater I've ever known has also been a big purchaser of legal music media. Piracy is how they find out about bands they really like, which they go on to purchase later.

    I would be willing to bet that, on average, an individual's spending on legal music media correlates well with their file-sharing activities.
     
  23. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    I pay for a lot of music, and a lot of software. I just like to try it before I buy it. Given that I actually buy any software or music that I decide I want to use, I don't feel a bit bad about it. Why should I? So far as I can tell, it's not harming anyone in any way. Except perhaps for the purveyors of shitty software and music, who are unable to trick me into buying crap.
     

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