Owning Pets

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by (Q), Dec 12, 2009.

  1. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    Bear in mind that the two most common species of companion animals, dogs and cats, domesticated themselves.

    Wolves have a psychology very similar to ours, pack-social hunters, but like their close cousins the coyotes and jackals they also have a strong scavenging instinct. About fifteen thousand years ago in central China, a few of the more gregarious, adventurous, opportunistic individuals sidled into our camp after noticing our habit of leaving perfectly good food lying on the ground. The ones who found this to be a sweet deal and could resist the temptation to eat the babies were warily welcomed because garbage was becoming a bit of a problem. Their hunting skills also turned out to be complementary to ours (faster running and more sensitive noses vs. more elaborate planning and those amazing pointy sticks), and together we were able to bring home much more meat than either species could do separately. Their night vision kept the camp safe, they were great bed-mates in cold weather, and our kids entertained each other to the great relief of the adults. Talk about symbiosis!

    All dogs are descended from that one pack of wolves. They have become a distinct subspecies, Canis lupus familiaris, distinguished by smaller brains (adaptation to a less carnivorous diet), teeth that are not quite as well suited for tearing flesh, and an immensely more gregarious nature that even welcomes pack-mates of other species. Large dogs occasionally interbreed with wolves, and even with coyotes, a different species.

    Cats, on the other hand, are not very much like us. They're solitary hunters, not social by instinct. About seven thousand years ago when advances in agricultural technology in Egypt gave rise to granaries, the local cats couldn't help noticing the rodents who were munching on that bounty of grain. They followed them in and for purely selfish motives began providing a valuable service to us. People began attracting cats to their towns, leaving out water and extra food, letting them sleep indoors, and helping take care of their lovable little babies. To this day cats are more independent than dogs, and are more likely to be earning their keep by hunting rodents.

    This is another case of symbiosis. Cats have not been selectively bred for as long as dogs so they have not become a distinct subspecies of Felis sylvestris libicus. All domestic cats are descended from the Egyptian population, although there are other subspecies of Felis sylvestris on other continents (even in Scotland), and domestic cats interbreed with them, muddying up the gene pool.
    I just did, but it was inspired by your post so you get the credit.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Yes, we breed Lhasa Apsos (one of the very oldest breeds and one that was, apparently, specifically bred to clean up garbage, obviously not for hunting), but it's the AKC that we want to take the stick to. You can thank them for hip dysplasia, pancreas failure, and large American breeds with a life expectancy of seven years. The AKC rewards breeding for conformation to show standards rather than health and temperament, and they will cheerfully register a litter that is the result of ten generations of inbreeding. We gave up on the AKC years ago and we've become legendary for our happy, healthy dogs who don't always look exactly like the ones in the picture books.
    Depends on what you want. The breeds have certain traits and when you get a mixed breed you don't know which of those traits you're getting. Lhasa Apsos, for example, are aloof and inactive but have an unerring ability to tell you whether you should allow the person at the door to come in. Spaniels aren't happy unless they're in a group of twenty. Border collies will herd your children into a corner of the yard. A retriever will always stand in front of you handing you a ball to throw. Maltese will run you ragged teaching them new tricks. A French bulldog will insist on going everywhere with you but not doing anything once he gets there. Our Anatolian was such a faithful livestock guardian that the deer jumped into our yard at night for protection from the bears and cougars.

    You mix these instincts up in a mongrel and you have no idea how that dog will behave when he grows up.
    An illustrative example. Just how far would you have to travel to find a natural environment in which it would thrive?
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Syzygys As a mother, I am telling you Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,671
    ...and we know this from the historical records as it was written down by Kipling titled The cat, who walked by himself...
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,000
    Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
    In the context of this thread... that sounds creepy at the very least... much less "ethical"... i.e... one animal "domesticating" another animal!!!

    Thanks... that helped me to beter focus my actual concern which is:::

    It sounds creepy at the very least... much less "ethical"... i.e... one animal "selectively-breedin" another animal.!!!

    I woudnt relesh the prospect of humans bein selectively-bred to suit the needs of a much advanced entity... so i queston the morality of humans selectively breedin other animals for our own purposes.!!!
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    You actually expect anyone to believe that nonsense?
     
  8. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    Sorry, but that's a completely different topic and has no bearing on this one.

    Come now, you're being utterly ridiculous.
     
  9. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    That's essentially what slavery offered.
     
  10. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,529
    For all of you saying pets wouldn't survive on their own, that's true, but that's our fault; we are the ones that domesticated them and made them dependent on us.

    Canines and felines were initially hunters, just like some of them still are.
     
  11. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    because it has never been my experience. I can't even wrap my mind around the idea of buying an animal just so I'm not lonely.
     
  12. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    Give homes to lions and tigers then, too, using the same logic.

    My point exactly.

    She is getting food, that's about it for the cats interest.

    It may be kindness now, but it wasn't kindness that placed the pet in that predicament in the first place, and it is that which I refer.

    I love animals, that's why I don't "own" them.
     
  13. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    No, its a food thing, not a love thing, Fraggle.

    Or, he found another source of food. In fact, most pets that roam find various sources of food and visit those sources regularily. It's doubtful they have the intellectual capacity to recognize once source over another as being their "masters"

    You mean as long as there is food.

    And, how do you think that occurred over the centuries? Selected breeding, perhaps?

    That's due to Islam, not dog ownership, get a grip.

    In other words, we have created a problem and are so far into it there's no turning back?

    Then, lets' begin to reverse that cycle and allow future generations of pets to join back into nature, where they belong, and are no longer kept as pieces of furniture to amuse us.

    So, we throw up our hands and forget about it?
     
  14. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    Let's offer something equally ridiculous, do people give birth to cats and dogs?

    But, guess what, they're aren't children.
     
  15. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    No, you go out and buy them and pay with money, so it would appear that your response is ridiculous.
     
  16. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,529
    I must say I agree with Q.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    Uh no, I [or more accurately, usually my sister, who is more prone to attacks of kindheartedness] pick them up off the street as orphans. A couple we've had dropped into our yard by people who know we'll take care of very sick animals [we get freebies at the vet too].

    So I'd say your imagination is severely limited.
    What a surprise!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    Make sure it is the same thing we agree upon and not something different. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating any bans or abolishments on pet ownership, but instead am just bringing to light this particular worldwide phenomenon that many are quite clearly disillusioned with.

    If we look at animal shelters, we understand there are a great number of irresponsible pet owners and we understand pets do leave their homes and don't return, for whatever reason. Often, pets are simply discarded or left to die.

    If we look at the multi-billion dollar pet industry and the animals that die to feed our nations pets and the waste of this food on pets when so many children starve to death each day.

    There are a great number of problems with owning pets, and those problems should probably be dealt with by the pet owners themselves. Instead, I seem to only be reading in the weak and lame justificationa of owning them.
     
  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Messages:
    24,690
    We know this about dogs because prior to the Neolithic Era humans didn't have the technology and ability to domesticate predatory species. There is some evidence of Mesolithic tribes possibly experimenting with the domestication of herbivores--pastoral nomadism. But the paradigm shift that defined the Neolithic was the Agricultural Revolution: the cultivation of plants and the domestication of animals, which made the building of permanent settlements both possible and necessary. This began around 9000BCE, several millennia after the self-domestication of wolves.

    I'll leave the detailed history of cats to a cat person.
    Considering that we have selectively bred ourselves, your argument is a little weak. DNA analysis allows us to avoid having children with dire conditions. And before we knew about genetics we simply chose mates with the characteristics we wanted to propagate in the tribe.
    Q, why do you so readily veer off into asshole behavior when everyone around you is being polite and non-confrontational? Too much caffeine? Maybe you don't have a pet to trigger some soothing endorphins? Why do you have to call something "nonsense" that has already been elaborated in this very thread? It makes you sound like cranky old Baron Max, with your own thread on the Moderators' board.

    If you disagree with something, please be a proper scientist and say why, so the discussion can move forward. And dial back the hyperbolic and inflammatory language. This is a place of science so we're free to talk that way about religion, but not much of anything else.

    Dogs are a pack-social species. Their instinct is to stay with their pack, not to go off on their own for very long. If you earn the status of alpha of the pack by bringing home a dead pig, several dead chickens and a big chunk of a dead cow every month for everyone to share, you've gone a long way toward earning their loyalty. If you also treat them with affection and return their loyalty, you've got it made. Dogs are quite capable of love and if they receive it they'll return it. That is their big attraction, in an era when the demand for livestock protection, game retrieval and detritus removal by alimentation has dropped off dramatically.
    But in addition, we've changed the world. There isn't as much room for hunters as there used to be. Wolves were the most successful predators in history and populated every continent except Australia and Antarctica, but now they're extinct in many places.

    The rain forest is vanishing and captive breeding is the salvation of many species of birds. There are probably more hyacinthine macaws (the huge long-tailed purple parrot that is the poster child for the endangered species movement) in North American living rooms than in South American jungles. The same is undoubtedly true of the European polecat in its increasingly urbanized homeland--the animal better known as the ferret.
    That's not what "companionship" means--at least not all of it. You have a qualitatively different relationship with a dog than you have with a human. They are extremely empathetic and know exactly how you feel when you're able to hide it from your family and friends--and even from yourself. (Some of that may be due to pheromones of course; they have a million times as many receptors as we do.) They love you even when you don't love yourself, and they are far more forgiving than most people can be. You can't lie to a dog and they don't lie to you. They remind you to laugh more, cry more and play more, and give you the simplicity and clarity to figure out what things are really important. All they ask in return is love, food, kindness, and not to be left all alone very often (except Lhasa Apsos, which are dogs for cat lovers). Such a bargain.
     
  20. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    Really? Explain to me again where exactly those pets came from? They were discarded, right, by "pet owners"? Tell me again, then, of the responsibility of all those pets who were discarded and then explain to me what my imagination has to do with that?
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,825
    How do you know this? Have you had a cat who only came to you for food? I have a cat who shows up on the hour to have her head scratched, I believe she thinks she is a dog, since she also patrols the door and behaves in general, very un-cat like.

    I don't think you know anything at all about pets, so I fail to see why you are making these assertions out of ignorance?

    Why don't you get a stray kitten and see how much you "own" her?

    They are strays, not discarded pets. There are lots of stray cats and dogs in the world, not every animal is living on the street because of some person. Why I myself have four pet cats and three strays who only visit occasionally. I also look after a stray dog, who only visits when she is ill, she sleeps in our balcony until she is well again, then leaves.
     
  22. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    Yes, I do have a qualitatively different relation ship with a pet vs a human. I can sell a pet. I can sell its offspring. I can have it put to sleep. I can have it sterilized. I can kick it out of my house.
    How does an animal remind you to laugh, cry and play? Of course they don't lie to you. They don't talk!
    Why do people humanize animals?
     
  23. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    20,855
    Stuff it. You and everyone else on this forum have done the same things, so you can shove your hypocrisy where the sun don't shine.

    And, maybe I respect animals to the point of not owning them, something you clearly fail to acknowledge.

    No, it isn't, and has not been for a long time. You can stuff that bs too.

    Then clearly, we shouldn't own them and single them out of their packs.

    Yes, one is slavery and the other is pet ownership.

    And, that's supposed to be science?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     

Share This Page