Tide turning on Circumcision, Push to circumcise all male infants

Why not? I would never support male circumcision if it were done my some random guy with a sharp rock, but most are performed in sterile conditions by professionals. So what's wrong with a girl getting the same professional treatment? When performed in similar conditions I think it is an easy comparison to make. I used to be heavily against it until I met people who have had it done and well aside from being forced into it as a small child, I don't have any valid reason to be against it.

 

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That is not analogous to what we are discussing.

Nor is that.

Nor is that.

Getting warmer. The amount of ostracisation a child may receive throughout their childhood due to such uniqueness may be an argument for surgical removal of the sixth finger, although I'd still err on allow them to make that decision.

Not analogous.

Perform cosmetic surgical procedures on children who cannot give informed consent? I doubt it. Nevertheless, simply because such a practise is common, does not make it ethical or appropriate.

Circumcision is vastly different from the scenarios you described above. Attempting to compare it to supplying a child suffering stunted growth with growth hormones is obfuscation of the greatest magnitude.

So might the removal of breast tissue for a growing girl. Removing a teenager's teeth might save them from a life threatening abscess. Removing your child's testicles might save them from testicular cancer. Etc. etc. If the child is placed at an immediate and very real risk or disadvantage if they do not have the medical procedure at that period in time, then the parents must act in the best interests of the child's welfare. Otherwise, they should wait until the child reaches an age to give informed consent.

 

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I assure you I have suffered no deleterious effects from circumcision in my sex drive, fertility, or performance. FGM, from what I've heard, often involves removing the clitoris altogether, which clearly would result in a massive decrease in sexual enjoyment for the female.

 

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LOL, what? Just a moment ago you were comparing circumcision to aborting children in the womb based on their gender, or giving deaf children cochlear implants. Hey, the children belong the parents, surely the parents get to decide whether they slice their baby girls clit off?

You can't have your cake and eat it too, Mad.

 

That's the same thing many if not most circumcised women say. They still can have orgasms and more than satisfying sex lives.

 

But women who sometimes choose to do it even after adulthood [like American women who marry Egyptian men for instance] insist it does not in any way affect their sexual arousal.

 

The point was that parents make medical decisions for their children all the time. These decisions are often based on little more than an asthetic preference, the convenience of the parents, or even some bizarre religious belief.

Consider cochlear implants. Some deaf people consider them to be a way of destroying their unique culture. Some deaf parents have been known to purposely have a deaf child. Clearly such people would object to the implantation of cochlear implants. How are we to know that the child might not subscribe to such a view if given the chance?

Or the facial surgery some parents put their kids with Down's syndrome thru so they'll look "normal". It doesn't improve their IQ's any. In fact, the massive surgery required might even cause further developmental delays in these children. Yet you say this is not relevant to this discussion? A two minute procedure with minimal risks is a bigger deal to you than multiple major facial surgeries requiring extended hospital stays, general anesthesia, and great risk for purely cosmetic reasons? WTF?

 

In a hospital. At first I thought there was something wrong with the guy, some kind of ugly growth on his penis or something.

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I confess I don't know much about FGM beyond what I've seen in the media. Are you circumcised? If not would you be? The guy I know who had circumcisoin as an adult had no sexual complaints.

 

The first time I saw a circumcised penis I thought, something had bit it and made it swell up, It looked so painful.

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Of course I didn't understand painful looking penis until I started working at the health clinic. So traumatizing.

 

No I'm not circumcised. My brother was circumcised after he was 12, with his consent. We are not the typical Muslims.

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IMO, circumcision has nothing to do with Islam, its not mentioned in the Quran anywhere. Its just a custom that has become associated with the religion.

 

The first (and only) time I've seen an uncircuimcised penis (the exchange student from Norway) I thought he'd been involved in some horrible accident. Not too many uncul units here in the midwest.

 

Ahh, so you have no problem with parents removing the clitoris from a female infant without her consent.

 

The entire concept of consent of children is a novel one. Do children need to consent before you send them to school? To come back home in time for dinner? To rules about watching porn or violence? To doing their homework? To using violence? For major surgery? For vaccination? For divorce? To stay with parents rather than live with someone else? What if they don't consent to any of the above? Can a parent lay down the law? Take charge? Be the person responsible?

 

At least according to Penn & Teller's Bullshit, circumsized men do suffer a decrease in sexual enjoyment because there are a lit of nerved clustered in the discarded part of the foreskin. I have no idea if they are correct, but so they indicated.

Personally, it seems to me that docytors should just give the pure facts as they understand them., but there seems to be a sense of boosterism on both sides in favor of whichever variety of penis you happen to have.

At the very least parents should stop doing it to infants, and let men decide for themselves when they are older, whether undergo the procedure, since it is entirely elective in any event. That said, I think it the whole thing were limited to consenting adult the numbers would drip to the floor for non-Jews.

 

Not really. The issue of informed consent when operating on children is an ethical issue which stretches back decades.

A parent is responsible for the welfare of the child, first and foremost. Subjecting a child to pain and mutiliation purely for aesthetics, without the consent of that child, is unethical. It disregards the welfare of the child and overrides their autonomy.

You raise a number of situations which aren't analogous. Right back at you: Do children need to consent before having their clitoris, testicles or breast tissue removed?

 

Precisely. Is it too much to ask that parents wait until their children of an age to give informed consent *before* subjecting them to cosmetic surgery? Even if you believe the proposition that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection, your child won't be having sex as an infant.

 

I think parents should be able to make that choice. However, I also think parents should be presented all the accurate facts as they are known so they can make an informed decision.

 

SAM there are somethings a parent needs to decide (like whats for dinner) and some which either should wait till the person can make that decision for themselves OR the courts must decide.

A good example is the sterilisation of girls with mental retardation. Thats no longer a desicion a parent can make but rather one which MUST be made by the courts and the courts must have default of NO (worded as "With the understanding that sexuality and the ability to reproduce are fundermental human rights...." or something like that, cant rember the exact act so i cant check it). There are other things for which the default is simply YES, no questions asked. This is the case with blood products for JW and then there are situations where the answer is a plain NO which aplies to FGM. IF a man who is over the age of medical consent (16 or younger if certain conditions are met, ie the ability to understand the procidure and the ability to act in there own best interests) then they can make that choice. If a parent does it to a child they should face the same penelties for SEXUAL child abuse (not just physical) as are given to a parent who does it to a girl. Simple as that

Ask bells about this issue, her son was one of those few where they were worried the gland wouldnt emerge from the forskin however even THEN the doctors recomended waiting rather than operating

 

So you think that parents should be allowed to remove the clitoris, testicles and breast tissue from their infant children without the consent of said children? I'd just like to confirm your views on the topic.