Star Wars vs Star Trek

29th Century Borg for the win!

"The capability of nanoprobes to absorb improved technologies they encounter into the Borg collective is demonstrated in the Voyager episode "Drone", where Seven of Nine's nanoprobes are fused with the Doctor's futuristic mobile emitter, creating a 29th century drone with capabilities far surpassing that of current drones."

I think a scattering of nanoprobes to absorb Star Wars technolgies would end the firepower dispute. They don't have to attack the biggest ship either... just capture a stray tie fighter, assimilate its weapons and shield technology, go for the next bigger ship, and so on until their cubes ARE a match for the big Star Wars ships.

One thing about Star Trek is they frequently speak about developing, trading, stealing, implementing and combining technologies... its a strong base for the enhancement of the story lines. Voyager, especially - they're always on the hunt for technologies that can help them survive their journey or cut its duration.

Speaking of technologies..
On the episode Prime Factors, "The spatial trajector is a type of folded-space transporter used by the Sikarians. In 2371, the USS Voyager discovered the trajector on the planet Sikaris, where it was in widespread use. The device had a range of over 40,000 light years."

And on the episode 'Warhead': "The Series 5 long-range tactical armor unit was a highly-advanced torpedo designed by the Druoda. The armor unit was powered by a condensed energy matrix, which alone could power a fleet of starships. The weapon was warp-capable and had a maximum range of eighty light years, and was protected by paratrinic shielding."

And on Dreadnought: "Chakotay explains that the weapon is a self-guided tactical missile armed with 1,000 kilos each of matter and antimatter, its own defensive weaponry, and one of the most sophisticated computer systems that B'Elanna had ever seen. The Maquis nicknamed the missile Dreadnought, due to its unstoppable nature."

Give the 29th century Borg a mission to assimilate these technologies and use them against the Star Wars universe... Good luck trying to find a place to hide.

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Spaceballs!

I vote Spaceballs at least until Halo/Covenant are added. You can't beat SSD size ships that turn into giant robots.

 

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1. The fling 30 ISDs out of system is true, I can find the name of the book and quote it if you want.

2. Why is it ever damn time trek gets it's ass handed to it trek fans go running to Q? Because there is a 100percent chance of all Q sitting back with a bag of popcorn to watch the show as SW takes out ST. Q has also come close to destroying humanity, so I don't see him being a big help at all.

 

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It is ST vs SW so you cant say that Q does not help iin the series because the hypothetical battle includes all race, tech etc fron each galaxy, and on the side how was trek getting its ass kicked i think it was the other way around

 

The worst vs debates are ones the with everyone against everone else because it not a debate any more. I look around the web and see all sorts of idiots having Everyone from all of SW-all timelines ganging up on Halo and then just forget the Forerunner when they say their allowed and go on about how Covie ships are taken down by MT weapons, which is not true.

So why not go with a just-post-Endor and post-VOY? The Empire is shall powerful but weakened; the Federation has all sorts of new tech.
There is no point in a debate that has God-like beings fighting for oneside.
Also, the poll speaks for its self on who's ass is getting kicked between ST and SW.

Oh, and remember that one epsiode where the Enterpirse is chased by Q?
He put the crew on trail for all of humanity.
The Federation could have been wiped clean from the galaxy if Q had ruled guilty.

 

Not to argue the point, but there is one other who could end the Borg... Captain Hernandez of the NX-02 Columbia - she was displaced into the Caelier society, which is actually the birth of the Borg - the Borg are Rogue Caelier that have merged with humanity, melding the worst of both races together. The Caelier have the power to, essentially, assimilate the Borg back into the Caelier race... considering the Caelien power supply is an OMG, Omega Molecule Generator... one ATOM of which produces more power in one second than the entire Milky Way Galaxy has produced in it's entire existance, the addition of advanced civilizations included. They use TONNES of the stuff to power their city ship (Axiom), giving them the ability to open quantum wormholes allowing for instantaneous travel anywhere in the known universe in seconds (assuming of course your shielding can withstand the intense Thalaron radiation inside these wormholes).

 

Actually, Q never planned on ruling Guilty - the whole purpose of the trial was to see how Picard would react - Q has been testing Picard since "Q first noticed Picards birth a few mili-moments ago." To the Q, the current universe as mankind knows it has been around for "a few moments", and it only continues to exist because Q himself has convined the Continuum that Picard may, finally, be the one they've been looking for.

 

Well if everyone can turn to writings about SW & or Star Trek, then yeah, dig up the best stuff ever written, but I didn't read them. I'm going by what has been on the TV/Movies. And since its a SW vs ST, that puts Q in the battle too, and SW cant argue that a trek character will fend for anyone else except the characters of the trek universe. Otherwise we could just as easily say SW rebellion would just battle against the empire, which they already did, so you can't say it couldnt be done. Vader tosses the bad guy over the rails and the movie implies that the bad guy is no more. Q loves Janeway, and so Q would almost automatically defend her, and humanity if that was her wish. Sorry - you cant use Q against the Trek universe, and the omnipotent wins, period.

But just for the sake of argument, the Borg still win, easily by assimilating star wars technology and using it to their advantage.

 

The only reason the polls show SW would win by so many votes is because there are more SW fans voting. Take 100 trek fan votes and 100 SW fan votes and then it would be a fair assessment. And then Trek would win because nobody can debate that the omnipotent Q could be beaten by any SW character or technology.

"The fling 30 ISDs out of system is true"

That's not sci-fi, that is more like fantasy. Rediculous fantasy, at that. And you had to go to a book for that. And if you can go to books for stuff that would hardly fly in theaters, then yeah - we go with the Q continuum which IS from the screen and mentioned in many shows, and so IS accepted as part of the ST universe. Book or no books, it's a fair assessment that the Trek universe characters would win.

Tech-wise, maybe SW is more powerful, but characterwise, we have Borg which can assimilate the SW technology so the Trek universe gets that anyway. And soon as a Vulcan gets their hand on a Jedi and Mind-melds with them, the Trek universe gets the Force too.

 

1. Will then we can go with just-post Yavin when the first SSDs start rolling out, and chose a good date for ST.

2. I am not saying have Q fight for the SW! I am saying he is an unfair advantage that should be set aside. Here is something on a smaller scale.
The Marza Dreadnought from the game Sins of a Solar Empire. It has an ability that allowed it to heavily damage or wipe entire fleets on its own with the push of a button, which Q is can do on a larger scale. They fixed it so it was fair when playing against other players as TEC, so Q should be left aside for the debate to be fair. With Q ST will win I agree.
So what I am saying is that SWvsST should be limited to the normal races of the Terkverse such as the Borg who can put up at least a small fight.

3. Borg win??

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Before or after the 200 GT Laser bolt kills the Cube they send ONE at a time against enemies. Or after the Death Star blows up all their planets? I go with the Empire because it built 60 percent of the second DS in only SIX MONTHS; a 900 kilometer station, 60 percent done in SIX MONTHS.

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Even the UNSC would kick Borg butt since they use bullets, also, Super MAC platforms=5.8 TT Coil guns, powered by, yes, you guessed it! Fusion! The same power source that gives the Covenant planet glassing firepower. The between 60-200 TT of the PoA reactors that took out the first Halo ring.
And don't even get me start on the Covenant or Forerunner, Covie plasma weapons make TL look like pea-shooters. And if a Forerunner ship even farts in the general direction of a star it goes nova from the hole in reality just opened up in its core, and then you have a Forerunner AI throwing around 37,000 ton Dreadnoughts/Keyships like small fightercraft.

 

You have to remember... that ONE cube that gets obliterated transmits data back to the collective about the weapon that killed it... even if the next 2 or 3 cubes die, the 4th cube will be all but immune to your weapon. And don't forget - the borg have come after earth one at a time because they want to ASSIMILATE earth, not OBLITERATE it - they can send MILLIONS of cubes... we're talking an invasion where each planet, moon, asteroid colony, space station, shipyard, planetoid, and any other stationary base gets 2-3 cubes assigned to it, and they ALL attack at the same time. There is no way, at all, for Star Wars to defend against that.

 

And they would control Earth far sooner if they send say, 12 Cube since we know the one from The Best of Both Worlds part two after taking Picard and wiped out 40 UFP ships.
See, if they were smart, which they are not, they would send 12+ Cubes at a time instead of sending them over a period of YEARS. The weapons data that would make them all but "immune" would reach the other Cubes in short time since they would be in UFP space and could then lead the attack on Earth. We know the Cube in ST:FC took hours worth of beating from a UFP fleet before blowing up, so why no back up Cube? They know the UFP can take out one with enough time, firepower and luck on their time.
And then they have never showen the ability to withstand GIGATONS to TERATONS of energy which is what Wars throws around. And do you even know how many inhabited systems there are in the SW galaxy? 12 MILLION, one million of which the Empire control. Borg have a few thousand systems.
And nearly every planet in the SW galaxy has planetary shields FAR beyond what the Borg could throw at them. Wars takes this: More firepower. Tougher armor and shields. Faster FTL within their own galaxy. Has 25,000 ISDs of both type-I and II plus millions of smaller vessels. Planet destroying weapons, etc.etc.etc. The Borg have NOTHING that the SW can not defeat.

Its late now, so good night.

 

Thing is, Star Wars has been shown, time and again, to operate at the Kiloton range at best... and if every planet had planetary shields, why did so many use basic theater shields... and for that matter, why could ships land through the shields?

 

The Borg send what they feel is appropriate for the risk and priority of the target. If there is a high priority situation, they send more cubes. If they feel there is sufficient risk that 1 cube may encounter resistance, they send more than 1.

And again, for those who keep forgetting, Star Wars technology would get assimilated, starting with small ships and moving upwards in size from there. Borg would know the weapons and shield technology and incorporate that into future encounters. Also, don't forget, they won't NEED superior firepower since their goal would not be to destroy everything. They'd rather get their nanoprobes stuck into everything and reprogram and restructure it to be compatible with their other technology.

Both death stars were destroyed in the movies, so it CAN be done. Everyone's argument for Star Wars is this superior firepower and shield technology, which I keep explaining the Borg would eventually assimilate anyway. That is the primary function of their species so you can't just claim they would be unsuccessful forever. Eventually, they WILL succeed. The SW movies show successful security penetration and infiltration, so it CAN be done. As a rule - the Borg eventually adapt to weapons and assimilate technology. Also lets not forget that the Borg have their vast knowledge of other species and every other technology they ever encounter. They don't just take it, they learn and understand it. The argument is simple.

Give the empire a fish, it eats for a day.
teach the Borg to fish, they just end up with all the fish.

 

Your telling me the Death Star is in the Kt range then since that Kiloton is at best?? So then mind telling me why before ICS SW people were shall in the 10-22 GT range when going up against ST?

And must I point out that if your talking about Naboo on the planetary shields they got those sometime during the Clone Wars. The one in TPM was a theater shield used just to keep the army safe from Droid tanks.

And when did ships ever land through them? Remember how the DS2 had a Planetary Shield to keep it safe? Or are you going to tell me know that all those ships that hit the shield didn't blow up?
If your talking about TESB they landed OUTSIDE the range of the rebel shield and then took out the the generator so the Empire could land more forces without having to go through rebel defense forces. The rebels never had the money for a full size shield after the Ion Cannon and even then that would be a dead give away telling the Empire where they are.

So since their Cubes got destroyed every time why didn't they realize that maybe they should send 3 Cubes? If they really have hundreds of thousands or millions 3 would be nothing to them... but then this are the idiots who let enemy broaders walk around on their ships for HOURS and not do a thing, so I guess I should't be expecting them to be even that smart.

I am not forgetting that they would assimilate SW tech. What I am saying is by the time their slow-ass Warp gets them back with the tech the Empire will have long since blown up the Borg empire.

Yes, it can be done. But lets look at the reasons that they were destroyed.

1. DS1: destroyed because of one hard to hit weak-point that Trakin didn't care about.

2. DS2: destroyed because the Emperor was an idiot. If the second DS had been completed then nothing would have stopped.

So do you really think the Borg, who shamble along once they outnumber an enemy, let enemy forces have free run of the ship as long as they don't damage anything, stand a chance? We all know the Borg are not the great superpower they are made out to be because they are idiots. SW outnumbers them and can one-two-shot them, the end.

Give the empire a fish, it beats you up for more fish and learns how to fish.
Teach the Brog to fish... they shamble along like zombies and don't get any.

 

The borg explore and find things to assimilate. They dont send 3 because its quite unlikely that they get sufficient resistance to justify doing so. Wy do you not have a family take 2 or 3 cars to the grocery store? Because the odds of getting car-jacked are not high enough to justify doing so.

Who the hell says they need to take it back?

Lets NOT look at the reason because I don't care. The fact is they got destroyed by a piss-poor example of an attack fleet, with EXTREME disadvantages. I do not care about the details of how. The fact is the empire's defenses sucked and they got their ass handed to them. They were the most powerful force in the galaxy and they got bitch-slapped with a most basic and straight-forward tactical strategy. Period.

Dude, they had a DEATH STAR! TWICE!! How the hell do you get punked and then get punked yet a second time!!? It's just like how Janeway encountered the Borg and survived, then got away with it more than once and she wasn't even scared of them anymore. Han and Leia would be like, "They're building a 3rd Death Star?? How far along?? Let'em keep building til its almost done; they explode way better..."

No, I think your assessment is severely flawed. See you miss the point. A plague is no smarter than you are, but you cannot reason with it. It doesnt care what kind of guns you have; If you have no defense against it, you get infected and then you go infect others.

Lets say you take 10 of your basic people against 10 basic borg and put them in a room, what do you get? You get 20 basic borg. So you can outnumber them all you want because many of your people would get turned into Borg.

Give the empire stuff to make use of, the empire makes use of it. The Borg would assimilate the stuff, you, all your knowledge of how to build the stuff, then it would make you build more stuff. Also, the Borg do NOT NEED to take any SW tech stuff back to anywhere, they can simply transmit the specs and keep on going. They'd capture small ships and build any advancements into their cube and keep coming, and every cube you ever encounter will have the same advancements. That's just how they roll, son.

 

I can also say one other thing too...

We all present these scenarios based on the idea that the SW and ST characters are fully aware of each other and their capabilities. I don't think that anyone would just give the 'destroy everything on site' command. There's usually a chance you'd be allowed to surrender your vessel and crew.

But instead, lets just say the two universes just happened to meet, then. What do we think would happen then? They don't meet as enemies, they just meet.

I think regardless, the Borg still win., only sooner because the Star Wars universe would have no idea how to react to an encounter with the Borg. The Borg would be like, "We are Borg. You guys have some really powerful stuff. We will add your technological eliteness to our own."

Borg Stormtroopers would look kinda tight.

 

Yes, very true. But one flaw: the Borg know they will face sufficient resistance from UFP fleets. Every time they attacked they went right at Earth with one Cube. No one ever said "hey, why don't we send TWO Cubes. Have one attack here and draw off that huge UFP fleet then send in the other Cube will they have their backs turned to take the Earth."

Sorry, I meant to say transmit the data back... which even at Transwarp would take months if its just in the SW galaxy.

So the reasons they got destroyed don't matter? Lets see, Luke had Force on his side and if Han hadn't returned and shot Vader the DS would have destroyed Yavin 4. The second DS was used as bait to draw the rebel fleet and Luke to the Emperor. The only reason the ISDs lose was because the Emperor wanted to use the destruction of the fleet to help him turn Luke.
If that AT-ST hadn't been captured then then the Ewoks and rebels would have lose. You see? Look at all this and you will see that if the Empire had acted just a bit smarter at these two points like at others then they would have won.

How do you get punked a second time? Watch the movies yourself, the Emperor used the second Death Star as bait to draw them into a trap and kill two birds with one stone; he failed because he was an idiot who thought he could live forever using the Force and didn't think Vader would chuck him down into the reactor.

Yes, but the Borg, unlike say the Flood can be taken out or at least crippled by a virus, such as at the end of Voy, correct? The Borg can just be bio-weaponed or computered virus to death like Voy did. Look at what the Empire can do and ask yourself "what can the Borg do against that?" Fact is that within their own galaxy the Empire can pick where they want to battle against the Borg and outnumber them 10, 20 or 30 to one because the Empire are own their home turf and can out ran Borg ships which at Transwarp take MONTHS to cross a galaxy.

Correct, flaw found: nearly everone in the SW galaxy owns a blaster. Put 10 basic SW people against 10 basic Borg and you most likely get Borg with smoking holes in their chest.

Yes, the Borg would assimilate the stuff if they could get to it. And what are the tech they captured from small ships going to do? Bore Star Destroyers to death? Look at it, on the defense the Borg would win fo decades until the Empire scouts out the Milky Way. On the defense in their own galaxy the Empire can not lose since they have speed and numbers on their side.

Yes? And why would the Empire give the Borg a chance if they know what the Borg do? Any Borg Cube would be blown up on sight if the Empire knew how the Borg work.

True, but depends on what races meet. Empire and Feds could be along the lines of trade happening. Borg and Empire meet the Empire will beat the Borg back to the stone age the moment they open fire.

Look at the points I made, the the Borg can only win for a few decades within their own galaxy. In their galaxy the Empire can pick their battles so they outnumber the Borg.

Agreed, would be funny though to see the Borg then be defeated because they end up with Endor troopers.

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Sufficient according to whom?

Months to get back to where? What the hell kind of dumbass strategy are you assuming will be used? Apparently you don't know shit about how to attack something.

The first one is speculation... there's no evidence that Vader's shot would have prevented Luke from succeeding. The second DS used as bait? That's stupider than anything else I've ever contemplated about SW. The ISDs lose because of yet another extremely stupid ass plot to turn Luke? Pfft, Piss on him - he couldn't even get his fighter out of the swamp. He was a frickin newb. And next you'll be telling me they didnt blow up 3PO and R2's escape pod to Tattooine so the Princess' message to Obi Wan would inspire Luke to seek him out and learn the ways of the Force and develop his power enough to be worthy for use of an entire space station as 'bait'.

He was an idiot, but what did confronting Luke have to do with the missions to take out the shields and attack the DS?

No, a specific sequence of events occurred which made that possible. The Borg got their ass handed to it by Species 8472 and Voyager was caught in the middle and decided to assist the Borg in return for safe passage through Borg Space. They ended up with Seven of Nine, who knew very detailed information about the Borg. Without her, Janeway would never have known much of the things she used to her advantage. The Entire collective was not destroyed either. "She (Janeway) did it (Introduced the pathogen to the Borg queen) in order to break her control over the manifold shielding around the transwarp conduits." There's not sufficient evidence to draw the conclusion that the Borg were all destroyed.

I don't see how you suddenly get home field advantage... nobody designated a specific area for this confrontation.

Basic species, no weapons! The Borg equivalent to procreation is by assimilation, so it is not a weapon. They don't kill people with them.

Even if the Borg came out of warp right on top of a ship and slammed into it and scanned the debris and salvage what they can, they get tech stuff and try to get in functioning. If they get a clue as to the power format and outputs, then learn how to increase the power. If they have to try to capture a functional ship then they'd have to do that.

Maybe you cant understand this but the Borg did not start out as powerful. They had to assimilate things more powerful than they are in order for them to evolve and become stronger. Its WHAT THEY DO! They have done it to countless species - far wiser and more technologically advanced. We can only ASSUME we have seen their best methods for assimilating a species or acquiring their technology. The fact is, the Borg can attack down to the microcellular level, so it would be like a biological attack. How do you defend against something you cannot even see? How can you prepare to counter something you've never encountered?

Even if you know you've been targeted for assimilation, you'd have to watch your back 24 hours, you'd second guess every meal you ate, every liquid you drank, everywhere you went you'd wonder if you've come into contact with their nanoprobes. And Heaven forbid they actually put some thought into their method of attack. Have you ever heard Seven describe the type of tactical strategies they come up with?

Oh and to answer your question, why the Empire give the Borg a chance? You're a fanboy, you should know!! Their over-confidence is their weakness. They're used to tractoring ships in and that's all it would take is once. Otherwise, the Borg can capture a small ship and decypher its access code formats and find a way through their defenses or security. It's an issue of 'Don't let them touch you!' and that's something you can only avoid until it happens.

 

When Picard was taken by the Borg in The Best of Both Worlds. Your not going to tell me one of the Federation's best Captains won't know even know a thing about the size of the UFP fleet-which I would guess would range from 10,000-25,000 starships, and not see the UFP could easily put up a good fight the second time around? Once Picard became part of the Borg they should have know everything he did about the Federation.
But since they didn't use what they learned at all: Borg=idiot space zombies.

Will depending on their base of operations within the SW galaxy, without a Hub normal Transwarp takes months. And I do know how to attack something, I have a dozen or so RTS games that I am very good at. I'm just saying the Borg have never seem to know how to use their forces correctly.

1. No evidence? The entire thing was a dramatic build up to see if Luke would fire before Vader, and then Han came swooping down on Vader to help save the day.

2. Yes, did you miss the part when the Admiral yelled:" Its a trap!" ?
The Emperor didn't think he would lose the shield around the DS2. As I said if that AT-ST hadn't been captured the Stormtroopers would have won.

3. Yes

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lets base all of Lukes future powers on his early days as a Jedi when he has not had the years that other Jedi had-nearly a thousand in Yoda's case, to master the Force.

4.

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What? The only reason they didn't fire was because they didn't detect any lifeforms on broad.

The Emperor wanted to end the rebellion and gain a stronger student then Vader. Watch the movie and it makes sense. Would you won't big tall and scary as a student? Didn't think so. Luke was younger, more powerful and could-once trained of course, use Force powers that Vader in his suit could't.

Ah, thank you for clearing that up.

Will it would take the Empire decades to scout out safe Hyperspace routes in the ST galaxy. So either the Borg gain tech that way or go through some sort of portal or something to attack the Empire. And in the end the Empire can just swamp the Borg in ship numbers... you have to wonder how many ISDs that 60 percent of the DS2 could have made.

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Yes, all I said was that nearly everone in the SW galaxy owns a weapon. I know the Borg have hand weapons, they just don't know how to use them.
You never see them using them to force enemy targets to stay under cover, and even then they just shamble along and even once they adapt can be taken out through brute force.

Agreed, that could work.

Yes, I know that it has only been for the last 1000 years of their 100,000 year histroy that they became this powerful. But in the end their own hivemind nature has doomed them since they don't seem to understand anymore that you don't let enemy troops run around on your ship for HOURS and not do a thing etc.etc.
More technologically advance then the Empire? Will could you name them and their feats then. I know there were some Forerunner-like races such as the T'kon Empire and the Dyson Sphere Buliders, but beyond those two races I don't know much of the real super races of Trek below Q.
I know they attack on the microcellular level. And how do you defend against something you can't even see? Stay the hell away from the source you can see. I agree that the Borg would make great gains during the early parts of any war, but would most likely lose them as the empire counter-attacked will Borg fleets are spread thin over tens of thousands if light years.

Yes, well it would depend on where you are-a ship, planet with shields etc.
If I was on say a ISD in the Core Words I would't worry to much about it, and even in the Rim as long as I am part of a far larger fleet there would not be to much to worry about.
And sorry, I try not to watch VOY... I just don't know what to say about it. How did they ruin it after TOS, TNG and DS9? They had been doing so will up until VOY came along.

Yes, but most of the Imperial Captains would never let something like the Borg on their ship if they knew what they did; most are not as stupid as the Admiral Vader killed in TESB.
But for the higher up Imperial Captains yes, their over-confidence would end up with Borg ISDs... but then the Borg would fall because now they are idiots. Should never infect the stupid Imperials; as I said with Endor troopers it would bring down the Borg.

All of these are good points about the Borg, but in the end the Empire would most likely strike back before the Borg can get enough SW level shipyards runing to crank out ships.

Off topic, do you want to debate in the HvsST thread? I'm getting bored whating for my HvsSW thread to take off and the Halo side made dozens of mistakes in HvsST.