Thing is, I don't want to get sidetracked into a religion vs. atheism or religion vs. science sort of debate. I want to focus on topics of specific relevance to The Secret, especially the most mystical claims that, if true, would defy all possible conventional explanations.
Why do you believe it is mystical? If you believe you can or you believe you cannot, you are right. The idea that your personal choices and thoughts can influence the environment around you to give you what you want is not at all mystical. Haven't you known people who can get things and get things done? In Indian philosophy the cultivation of the mind is an aspect of Raja Yoga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Yoga
Like I said, to me the mystical would be something defying any conventional explanation. I have very strong doubts about the veracity of your claim regarding the lifespan of religious people, but if the evidence were to ultimately prove overwhelming, it wouldn't automatically flip science on its head. Lifestyle choices would probably be the first thing one would want to look at, if it were even reliably established that there's something there worth studying. On the other hand, if you can isolate people and establish that there's some kind of telepathic effect going on between them leading to physical consequences, that would defy any explanation modern science could give and force us to seriously reconsider our theories and understanding.
You mean, a reductionist approach. I find such approaches extremely limiting in a clinical context. Its like taking an engine out of a car to check its performance.
I would advance the notion that they are ineffective. Human beings do not function as individuals any more than their bodies function as cells.
Sam do you practice the law of attraction which is outlined in the film? Do you accept it as a premise of how the world words? Is it compatible with your religion? Or do you just like the idea of meditation as a technique? Because the aim of meditation as a technique is very different the law of attraction.
Looking at our conversation reminds me of another characteristic that differentiates people with scientific skepticism from people with spiritual faith: how often do you see religious leaders candidly admit that they might be wrong, right down to their most sacred and fundamental beliefs?
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Well look, my central aim isn't really to disprove the spiritual notions expressed in The Secret and other newage stuff. I'm only interested in disputing anyone who claims they can find scientific support for these concepts, as well as anyone making false claims about science in general.
I don't know if I do. Not consciously as a measure. But, I can say with some degree of certainty that if I want to do something, I consider it not only possible but also expect it to work out. I have great faith in my instinct, for lack of a better term and its extremely rare that it has not turned out as I expected [I can think of only one situation in my life when I have been taken by surprise at the unexpected result, curiously enough that situation has now reversed itself, I am presently considering puttting it to the test in the Law of attraction] Of course, I am willing to submit that I may be mistaken, but it is curious how that event reversed itself after 20 years, it was entirely out of my control.
you conveniently ignored the work of Dr. John Hageline and Dr. Dean Radin http://www.deanradin.com/nytimes_hires_f.html
To eliminate serendipity, of course. The situation is still entirely out of my control, I cannot predict the outcome of it. But I am going to utilise the concepts of The Secret and believe that I know what the outcome is and act accordingly. I'll keep you posted on the results.
Well you couldn't could you? How would you be able to eliminate serendipity if you are already proven successful in all respects and have the tools to attain all you wish to attain when embarking in any endeavor? Best find some loser and get them to try out the techniques? You would not make a good example if what you said in the above post is true.
I see John Hagelin is listed in the credits for What the Bleep, which as you now agree is a cult propaganda flick, so now I really need to know why I should take him seriously, why his credentials are supposed to blow me away.
No, of course not. The people that don't use strict scientific methodology are much less threatening to your world view, so you should definitely focus your "debunking" of this idea on them, and ignore any analysis that is more suited to your standards. YOU were the one saying that these were false claims about science, and you wanted some data . . .
