An honest talk about Marijuana

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Jethro Tull, Jul 2, 2009.

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  1. Jethro Tull Registered Member

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    I have been given the permission to freely re-post this informative thread by a friend and fellow member of the Shroomery. He is known as "supernovasky" on Shroomery, and "beholderseye" on dailykos. Since the time of this post, the writer has been busted and faces the loss of his scholarships for sticks and stems.

    I posted this yesterday in dailykos, a blog read by millions of people, thousands of reporters, hundreds of prominent political leaders, etc... and to my surprise, it not only made it to the top of the diary list, it garnered 1100 responses. Because of the response it got there, I decided to post it here in Shroomery for everyone.

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/...talk-about-marijuana-(Updated-with-more-stats)

    Sit down, I have something to talk to you about. Your mother and I found this in your room last night. We understand that this is a difficult time in your life, but we want to make sure that you have all of the information before you continue what you are doing. These uninformed posts are addictive, making them is a habit that is hard to break, and ultimately you might ruin your life or risk too much if you walk around this world without... INFORMATION!

    So, lets have an honest talk about marijuana.

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    "What information is out there on marijuana? And why do I need to know it? Why can I not rely on common sense?" you might ask. As Galileo once said, where your senses fail, reason must step in. Likewise, there are many basic facts about marijuana that people seem to think are true based on their own common sense. However, you might quickly learn that common sense is not exactly the best way to approach marijuana related issues.

    Let me give you an example. All of us have lived to see a cigarette smoker or two... they die of horrible diseases like lung cancer or heart disease, or they are forced into a life with several taxing surgeries and never are the same. We see people rushed out of burning buildings with smoke inhalation who then need to be placed on oxygen tanks, or who die. So we see people inhale marijuana smoke, and we only have cigarette smoke and house fires to compare it to... and likewise say, "Marijuana is bad for you because smoking ANYTHING is bad for you. It causes cancer, because smoke always causes cancer!"

    But this just is not the case. Smoking marijuana is different from the other kinds of smoke. Marijuana smoke is a broncho-dilator, so tar does not get trapped in your lungs like nicotine. Furthermore, THC has been shown to have anti-carcinogenic properties, making this issue far more complicated. Let me introduce you to the scientific body of thought behind marijuana, cancer, and other diseases:

    Peer Reviewed Studies showing marijuana poses no cancer risk:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/25/AR2006052501729_pf.html

    http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/news/20000508/marijuana-unlikely-to-cause-cancer

    http://www.isegoria.net/2009/02/marijuana-cuts-lung-cancer-tumor-growth.htm

    Other studies disproving the Marijuana cancer link:

    S. Sidney (September 1997). "Marijuana use and cancer incidence (California, United States)". Cancer Causes and Control 8 (5): 722-728.

    J. Huff & P. Chan (October 2000). "Antitumor Effects of THC". Environmental Health Perspectives 108 (10): A442-3.

    K.A. Rosenblatt et al. (1 June 2004). "Marijuana Use and Risk of Oral Squamous Cell Carcinoma". Cancer Research 64: 4049-4054.

    Parolaro and Massi. 2008. Cannabinoids as a potential new drug therapy for the treatment of gliomas. Expert Reviews of Neurotherapeutics 8: 37-49

    Galanti et al. 2007. Delta9-Tetrahydrocannabinol inhibits cell cycle progression by downregulation of E2F1 in human glioblastoma multiforme cells. Acta Oncologica 12: 1-9.

    Calatozzolo et al. 2007. Expression of cannabinoid receptors and neurotrophins in human gliomas. Neurological Sciences 28: 304-310.

    Ramer and Hinz. 2008. Inhibition of cancer cell invasion by cannabinoids via increased cell expression of tissue inhibitor of matrix metalloproteinases-1. Journal of the National Cancer Institute 100: 59-69.

    Preet et al. 2008. Delta9-Tetrahydrocannabinol inhibits epithelial growth factor-induced lung cancer cell migration in vitro as well as its growth and metastasis in vivo. Oncogene 10: 339-346.

    http://www.webmd.com/alzheimers/news/20061006/marijuana-may-slow-alzheimers

    And all of the sudden, it becomes apparent that in this case, our senses have failed us. We must throw aside our anecdotal experiences and become informed in the science behind the issue.

    When I was younger, just turned 16 years old, I remember very clearly the day my best friend told me he smoked marijuana. Of course, up to that point, I had relied on my common senses as well, much like many of you here on Dailykos. I was taken aback... I felt hurt, betrayed. How could my best friend become a pothead? How could he put me in the situation to choose between his friendship and what I so obviously felt I know was morally reprehensible?

    So I launched a deluge at him. Told him that marijuana kills brain cells, that it caused cancer, that it caused infertility, that he was hurting himself, and how betrayed I felt. I kept trying to convince him that what he was doing was killing himself. He was good to me though and stayed calm through my assault on his newly found recreational activity. He calmly referred me to a series of studies, a page on marijuana myths, and systematically deconstructed my entire worldview on marijuana.

    Then I turned my hurt and anger to society and the government, because it had so obviously lied to me. I stopped trusting anything coming from the government, and I was appalled at how studies against marijuana were so flawed as to be intentionally intellectually dishonest. This too, I got over with over time, because it wasn't the government's fault that I felt so betrayed, nor was it my friends fault. The fault lied with me and only me, because I did not know the truth behind the issue.

    So then I turned to more research. I wanted to know WHY marijuana was illegal, and what the government itself said about marijuana. The more I researched, the more I learned. I never knew, for instance, that governments across the world, including our own federal and some state governments, have determined that marijuana is not a danger to society:

    Official commissions that have determined marijuana poses no great risk to society and should NOT be criminalized:

    Canadian Senate Special Committee on Illegal Drugs. 2002. Cannabis: Summary Report: Our Position for a Canadian Public Policy.

    California Research Advisory Panel. 1989. Twentieth Annual Report of the Research Advisory Panel. State Capitol: Sacramento.

    Swiss Federal Commission for Drug Issues. 1999. Cannabis Report of the Swiss Federal Commission for Drug Issues. Swiss Federal Office of Public Health: Bern.

    New Zealand Parliamentary Health Select Committee. 1998. Inquiry into the Mental Health Effects of Cannabis. Parliament House: Wellington.

    United States National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse. 1972. Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding (The Shafer Report). U.S. Government Printing Office: Washington, DC.

    More commissions finding that possession should be legal:

    the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse (the Shafer Report) (1973);

    the Canadian Government's Commission of Inquiry (Le Dain Report) (1970);

    The British Advisory Committee on Drug Dependency (Wooton Report) (1968);

    Still, you say, what about the studies against marijuana out there? You want to go looking throughout the internet to find contrary studies? I can probably even tell you right now which studies that you will find to support your case, and then exactly why those studies are severely flawed and not respected in the scientific community.

    The two most common studies that prohibitionists use are the link between cannabis and lung cancer shown by a New Zealand study that focused on a sample size of only 81 people (the biggest study that I showed you was a sample size of 20,000 people), and of those 81, 90% smoked tobacco at the same time. Tobacco use was not controlled for.

    Another study you will find is the testicular cancer risk study. This study does not control for patients who are smoking marijuana, ironically enough, BECAUSE of their cancer. Furthermore, the investigators themselves admit that the link is weak and needs much more research, and it should not be used to support the claim of marijuana causes a form of testicular cancer. Furthermore, the testicular cancer they speak about is a very rare one and is made just slightly more common by smoking marijuana. Still, the chances of any individual developing this cancer are astronomically low. Fatty acids, yellow 5, and high fructose corn syrup have better links to cancer.

    Another study you will find are in vitro studies, where claims are made such as "marijuana has carcinogenic properties on such and such cells" or "Marijuana smoke contains more such and such than tobacco smoke." The problems with these studies are that the in-vitro studies never seem to hold up in vivo. Tashkin, the author of the biggest marijuana safety study ever, was once vehemently against marijuana. Look up Donald Tashkin yourself and find this out. He changed though when he realized that in-vitro studies ignored the possible carcino-protective effects that THC seems to have, and when his in-vivo research supported this. Furthermore, in-vitro studies on strictly THC show that it indeed DOES have carcino-protective effects, and it is actually available as a topical ointment for skin cancer. As for the "contains more tar" studies, this ignores that "tar" is a VERY vague term, not a scientific one, that includes any residues. The residues of marijuana are easier to remove from the lungs because they are not trapped like they are when nicotine is smoked, which constricts your bronchioles and traps the tar.

    But the matter remains, even if marijuana IS dangerous, prohibition makes marijuana more dangerous. Banned pesticides, glass dust, and illegal fertilizers make it into marijuana just for the higher profit margins, because marijuana is illegal, untaxed, and unregulated. Furthermore, many argue that legalization of marijuana would increase use, but if you look at the Netherlands, they use marijuana at just over 20%, whereas 40% of Americans and 56.7% of Americans age 18-28 have smoked marijuana.

    800,000 marijuana smokers are arrested each year. That is millions of people that now have a drug conviction on their record, making them harder to employ, boosting unemployment and decreasing revenue. Why do we allow smoking marijuana to destroy the professional prospects of millions of Americans, while alcohol use is considered acceptable? Doctors are accepted every day into medical school who drink, but those who smoke marijuana are not allowed due to drug tests. The same applies for jobs all throughout the economy for marijuana smokers. Furthermore, 500 dollars per arrest is spent, adding up to hundreds of millions of dollars in cost. It costs 30,000 a year to imprison someone, why not just turn them into the backbone of a new economy and free up prison space? Why not encourage cops to go after violent criminals instead of farmers?

    I believe that if we do decide to legalize marijuana, we will see many benefits:

    1 - It will instantly provide a multi-billion dollar industry to the united states.
    The state that legalizes will experience a big boom in their economy in just a few days.
    2 - Medical users could then smoke freely instead of taking pain medicines that are damaging to their health.
    3 - Non-medical users that smoke will face less liver-toxicity if they take when they have a headache than eating Tylenol.
    4 - 30,000 dollars a year is spent to keep a prisoner in prison. More if it is in a federal penitentiary, where several marijuana growers are spending hard time. Legalizing not only will provide an instant gain in the money that it normally costs to keep these people in prison, but will turn them into taxpaying members of society, or hell, maybe even entrepreneurs.
    5 - It will reduce many billions of dollars that we spend fighting corruption in the United States caused by the Mexican drug cartels, and the drug cartels themselves.
    6 - It will reduce the national security concerns of the above as well.
    7 - Hemp will be an even big industry. Hemp will bring in much more money than other paper sources.
    8 - Marijuana is good for the environment. It produces a lot of oxygen, and it is much more quickly grown than pine forests, which face heavy deforestation every year. It is a very renewable source of paper and tough fiber.
    9 - It will make the people feel good about their government not intruding on their lives unjustly.
    10 - Imagine the sort of coffee shops, smoke bars, paraphernalia, etc... the peripheral market for marijuana will be amazing.
    11 - It will eliminate 60% of the violent Mexican drug cartel's funding directly. The other 40%, cocaine, will be significantly reduced due to the virtual death of the black market centering around marijuana.
    12 - It will draw people away from alcohol and cigarettes, which are much more dangerous and deadly.
    13 - Marijuana is actually carcino-suppressive, cuts your chances of getting lung cancer in half, and is neuro-protective, meaning that people who do drink on marijuana will possibly see less brain damage. Furthermore, as in point 12, who would drink all day when you could smoke weed all day? We may see less people drink alcohol as a result.
    14 - It costs 500 dollars every time we arrest someone for Marijuana. That does not take into account all of the maintenance programs, drug rehab programs that we pay for when they are on probation, drug testing, and constant purchasing of equipment meant to find marijuana growers. This will save billions of dollars in legalization.

    So what can you do about the situation? Well, anything! Just talk to people about your feelings on the issue, and hell, even if you are against it, engage in open debate and open discussion. This is something that our nation absolutely needs to talk about.

    Here is what I did recently:

    870 AM broadcasted out of Louisiana reaches hundreds of thousands of listeners, and at night, its broadcast range is all the way to Chicago. The topic tonight was the legalization of marijuana. The host is VERY supportive of legalization, and this is a guy that is just a regular old person, a radio talk show host, older guy, who never smoked, but just sees to much benefit in it. I called in, and had a great conversation with him, and my call has been referenced multiple times tonight... it was a great feeling. Anyways, just get the message out there, folks. Here is what I said:

    I also talked about how 800,000 people a year are arrested each year, and the lost revenue from them having a drug conviction on their records probably costs us tons of money in lost taxes... I mean, hell, in 10 years, 8 million people will have a drug conviction on record and be very hard to employ.

    An hour later, he said:

    So with that, I leave it up to all of you to go out and inform yourselves on this very important issue. Hopefully you leave this diary a little less uninformed than when you entered. Knowledge is power, use it wisely.

    Albert Einstein, "My First Impression of the U.S.A.", 1921

    And as Gandhi said:

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you... then you win."

    Update: A poster bellow wanted more sources for other claims, so I have included them here:

    Marijuana already Is a multi-billion dollar industry. Hell, even in just British Columbia, it is a 7.5 billion dollar industry. In the US, it would be much higher:

    http://www.medicalmarihuana.ca/tax.html

    As far as billions to fight corruption and violence caused by the cartels, the DEA is not the only agency that fights the cartels. ICE, local, state, and federal police are fighting the cartel members that have popped into over 200 cities.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/world/americas/14mexico.html?_r=1

    "U.S. May Provide Billions to Mexico to Fight Drug Cartels"

    For a graphical representation of how much money is spent in just the legal issues on marijuana and crime:

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    Another Update: I strongly recommend anyone reading thus far and entering the debate to also check out these studies with regards to THC and its protective effect against cancer. This website has compiled 35 studies showing that THC seems to prevent cancer and be anti-carcinogenic:

    http://www.safeaccess.ca/research/cancer.htm

    :m:

    Logical articles based on reason and scientific evidence are the key to pushing this legalization movement over the threshold. The time has come to end this foolish War on Drugs once and for all.


    Namaste
     
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  3. Thoreau Valued Senior Member

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    Can we get a summary? lol
     
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  5. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Say NO to drugs
     
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  7. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Jethro, is this post for or against pot?
     
  8. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Marijuana is harmless.

    If alcohol is legal, there's no reason weed shouldn't be.

    Also, people want it to be legalized. A lot of people. Add two the two together, and the government has no cause to keep it illegal.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    People want to drink and drive too. The government can legalise it. No reason to use it for anything other than therapy.
     
  10. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Uh, wrong.

    Legalizing drinking and driving is not the same as legalizing marijuana.

    Legalizing marijuana is the same as legalizing alcohol. Nobody is saying smoking weed and driving should be legal.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I was addressing what people want. People want a great many things. Thats not a basis for legalising it. I'm not addressing legalities.

    Just say NO to drugs.
     
  12. Balerion Banned Banned

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    Well then you clearly did not read my post. Or perhaps you just didn't comprehend it. Neither would surprise me.

    I said when you combine the two factors of 1) marijuana being less harmful than weed, and 2) such a large number of the population demanding it to be legalized, the government has no excuse to keep it legal.

    But to be fair, public demand should be more than enough reason. This is a government for the people and by the people, after all.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Depends on the public. And the demands
     
  14. Jethro Tull Registered Member

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    I recommend reading it.

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    Way to regurgitate exactly what you heard in D.A.R.E.

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    Yes. This article explains why the benefits of legalizing marijuana for personal and medical use outweigh the costs. It backs up the arguments with peer-reviewed studies and scientific evidence. The article promotes education over lies that have been engraved in our society by politicians with their own agendas, mainly getting re-elected. It explains why people who simply regurgitate what they hear from politicians or D.A.R.E. need to see what the evidence supports.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    They gave out a Nobel Prize for lobotomy. I have no idea what DARE is.
     
  16. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

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    ok, well, thanks anyways.

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    SAM, was Jethro for pot or against it?
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    He's basically advocating the position for it to be legalised for personal and medical use and giving a collection of peer reviewed lit for it. I've already gone through that stuff in earlier threads [with MetaKron of all people] and there is evidence of psychosis in prolonged users and especially users from a younger age. I could produce a ream of stuff on endocannabinoids and all that jazz but I don't particularly feel like it.

    Screwing with your brain is not to be recommended under any circumstances.

    Just say NO to drugs :soapbox:
     
  18. Jethro Tull Registered Member

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    I also feel that putting foreign substances in your body is not necessary, but I have Jeffersonian outlook on this sort of thing. Do what you want, as long as you do not hurt others. All the War on Drugs is doing is creating an underground black market trade, putting money in the hands of criminals, gang members, and deadbeats, and taking funding out of the mainstream economy. Making drugs illegal is simply a good idea that does not work. I am not advocating the use of marijuana, just showing that the cost of keeping them illegal is far too great. The benefits clearly outweigh the costs if you look at the evidence.

    Also, S.A.M, you put a link to a google search page. If you are getting your "evidence" from the mass-media, I strongly suggest digging a bit deeper. I've read a lot of those "studies" and found no evidence of marijuana causing psychosis by any means. As a psychology major, I would say that those already prone to schizophrenia and psychosis may have a higher chance of developing it if they use marijuana.

    Reading coverage of marijuana research in the mainstream press increases the risk of becoming misinformed by 50-300%. More research is clearly needed to identify further sources of flawed marijuana reporting. The risk of bad reporting remains stable despite concerted efforts to inform the media that hysterical claims about marijuana frequently lack scientific merit. Exposure to poorly researched news about marijuana is correlated with support for costly, ineffective, highly punitive marijuana laws.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Like I said, I don't feel like regurgitating old studies. You can look up the discussions I had with Metakron et al on the issue for peer reviewed lit. I don't have academic access now and I don't feel like digging out the old stuff. I'm only a mere nutrition scientist, so don't take my word for it.
     
  20. Jethro Tull Registered Member

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    I'll take some time to search that out. I will not take your word for it, and you should not take mine, and none of us should just blindly accept what the mass-media says. You should check it out for yourself. That is why I posted the article.

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    eace:
     
  21. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    It was a good article Jethro Tull, thanks for that. We also know that humans have been doing mistakes throughout history. Current legal and social approach towards cannabis is a political choice, and may not doing any good for us. Cannabis have been around for 80 million years while humans have a history that we could stretch only up to 6 million years. This plant have been tried and used in the wild by other animals, before humans were even around. No one really knows what made our ape brains so developed in our distinct evolution. We do not even know that, yet we judge hunter gatherer tribes with a religious modernity norms. Forget that, we accepted the ultimate authority of government which can tell us what to consume and what to not without showing any concrete evidence. This is a bloody theatre.
     
  22. jmpet Valued Senior Member

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    It is inevitable that marijuana will be legal in the USA... it's only a matter of when and how. I thought for the longest time that it would be when the Supreme Court legalizes it- after a long and dramatic trial process, of course- but now I see it more likely as the states get more and more strapped for money they just don't have.

    I read the SF Chronicle's recent article on the impending financial shutdown and at the bottom were reader comments with them asking for people's opinions and ideas. There were lots and lots of posts and ideas and about half of them went straight to legalized and taxed marijuana as a stream of income- I hope their Governor is listening.

    Marijuana alters the brain because it shows the brain that reality is not as cut-and-dry as reality really is- it makes the world special. Lord knows I've read my share of pot-fueled posts here just as I have posted many myself, this one included. The greatest thing I get from marijuana is that the world around me gets a little quiet and I am in my own happy place where the world makes sense to me.

    I only started smoking pot (after years of vehemently fighting against it) in my mid 30's and I am now 39 and I have a different relationship with marijuana. I never smoked it with a bunch of buddies or in the park at dark or cut class to get high. I treat it as a drug- which is what it actually is: I set my life's priorities in order for the evening, prepare for tomorrow's duties then punch out for the night and get high and relax.

    To me, marijuana is more a spiritual thing- it puts me at ease. No wonder Jesus was such a pothead.

    And this is the big danger marijuana presents if legalized- if readily available to all, then everyone will get high and chill out and relax and breathe and think for themselves. In other words, we'll stop getting drunk and drag racing and extreme sporting and most importantly, credit card shopping. We'll all chill out... we'll all act like we're living in Maui.

    And right there our American productivity will be lost. All those "graphs of future production" Big Banking draws up will no longer apply. Why? Because America will be stoned, man.

    I urge you all to read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal_of_Prohibition and substitute "alcohol" with "marijuana" and see for yourselves how legalized marijuana is an ineviatability.
     
  23. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    People don't want to drink and drive, that is a strawman. People want to drink and they want to travel from one place to another. They don't really want to operate a vehicle while intoxicated as that may get them or someone else killed.

    People actually know these things, Sam, despite your claims.

    Your claim would have people wanting to harm themselves or someone else. If you want to talk about people harming themselves and others, go over to the religion section.
     
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