Pakistan - Destabilization & Division

Discussion in 'World Events' started by StrawDog, May 27, 2009.

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  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I doubt anyone here is an expert. Regardless, it remains a fact that when Afghan nationalism moved away from religious fundamentalism, it was crushed.
     
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  3. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    These people are agents from India and Afghan-Karzai faction. Several weeks ago, a large number of Indian nationals were arrested in FATA carrying explosives into Pakistan from Afghanistan. They rely on TTP [pseudo-Taliban] and their supporters to carry out sabotage of Pakistani mosques, bazaars, police stations, and power plants. There is no coincidence that India has seven embassies in Afghanistan, and is carrying out military operations in support of Karzai {anti-Pukhtoon, anti-Pakistan, anti-Muslim government). Not to mention these assailants are highly trained and well-funded, having access to American-made weapons. The Israelis were actively funding the Bugti rebellion in Afghanistan [ISI sources], until Pakistani forces crushed the insignificant rebellion and captured huge stores of explosives and weapons smuggled in from Afghanistan.

    As StrawDog and Ghost_007 put it, this is a conspiracy against the sovereignty of Pakistan by its enemies. Pakistan is in the worst security situation since the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan (which resulted in Indian and Russian agents bombing and sniping Pakistani civilians in Karachi and other cities throughout Pakistan in the 70s). We can all blame this on the lack of the Pakistani government under the dog Zardari to do anything to protect Pakistan from infiltration and sabotage.

    It's not a dream. Three invasions by a nation ten times its size and Pakistan is still alive. Alhamdulilah. Allah swt made Pakistan for the Muslims of the subcontinent, and it is He who shall keep it alive. Pakistan and Afghanistan will live forever, because of our countless blessings from Allah swt. Inshallah, you will see that Islam will spread throughout the world through conversion (Islam is the largest growing religion in India, America, Russia, UK, etc.). The Mongols were the worse enemies of Islam, but look at how Allah swt made them into the greatest propagators of Islam. They brought all of Turkestan, Sindh, Hindh, Western China, Southern Russia, Northern Iran into Islam. Islam is the future, best to embrace it now for our own salvation.
     
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  5. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Sam: "I doubt anyone here is an expert."

    It takes no special expertise to observe that religious institutions are a sanctuary of constancy in monocultures, when order breaks down- and it takes no special expertise to understand why they are a target of control.

    Which is why we could never endure in the USA what we are precipitating in Pakistan- we would all be at each others' throats in days under similar tension. Because superpower strategists fail to comprehend the cohesiveness of cultures they do not understand, they are thwarted in forcing change.

    It takes no expertise of this kind at all, to rise to the top of the history's mightiest superpower, and to meddle in ignorance with the lives of millions. But from even the lowliest perspective, it isn't really so hard to see the truth.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Could you expand on this?
     
  8. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Well, atleast there are people like you brother, so I have confidence in as future as a united, peaceful human race. If people in Pakistan knew there were Americans like this, I'm sure it would help much combating the rise of tensions we see today, mostly from failed policies of the American governments of Obama and Bush.
     
  9. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    Sam: "Could you expand on this?"

    In the USA we do not have a monolithic cultural refuge- we would split apart under comparable pressure (foreign intervention, unstable leadership) into more numerous and violent factions than (for instance) India and Pakistan. It would be uglier than our Civil War, which made Pakistan today seem relatively placid.
     
  10. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

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    DH: "If people in Pakistan knew there were Americans like this"

    Well, tell them. We're all trying to overcome this grand stupidity.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think you overestimate how much people would care. IMO, it would take an economic hit for Americans to care about anything, culture and religion only makes for flag waving. You wouldn't see all Americans out on the streets for ideological reasons, like the Pakistanis or Iranians.
     
  12. quadraphonics Bloodthirsty Barbarian Valued Senior Member

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    Pakistan's population is only 16% Pashtun. This means that most Pakistanis (84%, to be exact) are not Pashtuns.

    Neither Afghanistan nor Pakistan is a "Pukhtoon nation," as the Pashtun do not comprise a majority in either state. Taken together, the Pashtun compromise only about 20% of the combined populations of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

    False. They are the largest single ethnic group, but many millions short of a majority. Rather, they are the plurality ethnic group in Afghanistan.

    So now both myself and S.A.M. - of all people - are "Israelis?"

    False. The majority of Pakistanis are Punjabis.

    There are no Israelis in this thread, as far as I can tell, and the issue isn't your Pukhtoon-ness, but the lack of Pukhtoon-ness of the vast majority of the populations of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    hahah... yeah, it's now all Obama's fault? heh

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    too funny.
     
  14. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Indeed, brother. I am in constant contact with people of the region and general Muslim world. Whenever I get a chance to go back, I share all my stories with my relatives and friends. Recently, I am bringing some material on Native American history and planning to tell them about my trips to several reservations and my meetings with Native American leaders. My relatives always find my stories quite interesting, as they don't have the blessings to travel and see the world as I do. It's always great to go back home, I receive kind of a royal treatment in my extended family.

    Quadra, Pakistan and Afghanistan are both Pukhtoon nations. I stated earlier that Pukhtoon comprise the majority of Afghanistan, and that they are one of the major ethnic groups in the federation of Pakistan. Both nations are ethnically Pukhtoon. Furthermore, Punjabis, Kashmiris, and Baloch are closely related to the Pukhtoon people. This why I stated that the culture and heritage of Pakistan are derivative of the Aryan, Indus, and Mughal eras. Three of the oldest cities in the world reside in Pakistan, Mohenjo-daro, Harrapa (both ruins now), and perhaps the oldest continually inhabited city in Asia, Lahore (previously known as Loh-awar). Pakistani people and Afghani people are brothers, and Pukhtoon, Punjabis, Kashmiris, and other people in Pakistan are brothers.

    Why do you want to further this propaganda that we are disunited and against each other? What is the interest for you here? Does it help support your hatred against Palestinian Muslims to paint all Muslims in conflict with each other?

    It should be known that after Soviet invasion and destruction of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Pakistan alone, helped to rebuilt what little infrastructure was left in Afghanistan. Pakistan sent convoys of food, water, and medicine to starving Afghanis. Pakistan, which was always a friend of Pukhtoons and Afghans everywhere, tried with futility to dissuade America from invading Afghanistan and settle this conflict through diplomacy, for the sake of starving Afghani civilians who could not bear the brunt of any more conflicts. yet we see today how the strong Pakistan which defended its brothers in Afghanistan and was the bulwark against Soviet influence in Asia has been made weak by American policies of constant aerial drone bombings and support of Indian military, nuclear weapons apparatus. We see an Afghanistan, where US allies who are mostly ex-pawns of the Soviets, are butchering and massacring Pukhtoons in Afghanistan with impunity.

    One thing all of us have learned, no one is a friend of Pukhtoon but Pukhtoon and Pakistan. Everyone wants to kill, rape, butcher the Pukhtoon people. They want to eradicate Pukhtoon people from this planet, and will accomplish this in ways worse than Hitler did to the Jews of Germany. They murder whole families and bomb peaceful wedding parties. They kidnap Pukhtoon women and children and abuse them in Bagram and other torture bases, using Pukhtoon women as slaves for US soldiers. No Pukhtoon, no Pakistani can stand for this and be a man! I don't believe such a cruelty has ever been committed on any other people before. We will resist, this is the only honorable way. As long as American soldiers massacre civilians, the people of Afghanistan and Pakistan shall resist forever if it is necessary for the security of our families.

    Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir Zindabad.
     
  15. Ghost_007 Registered Senior Member

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    So because Pakistan has a huge military presence on the border, in response to India's military presence, Pakistan fears India? lol. In order to protect its territory and people from possible Indian aggression those steps have to be taken. Following your logic, does America fear Afghanistan, Iraq etc. since they have a massive military presence in those countries...


    The Taliban were free men that decided on what they wanted to do and how they were going to do it. They did not receive orders, though they did get aid and assistance – which is something completely different. Anyway, the Taliban have been the best thing to happen to Afghanistan in the last 40 years. Take a look at Afghanistan when the Taliban were in power and compare it to the time before they took over and also compare it to the country now. Were Mosques and weddings being bombed like they are now? And it was the Taliban that fought against the major criminals and drug-traffickers, the same people that the Americans are supporting, today!


    American sent arms and money to Afghanistan as well. You were Osama's best mates at one time. You helped give Al-Qaeda a base in Afghanistan... and it came back to bite you in the arse. No good blaming Pakistan. Take responsibility for your own actions.


    First things first, America only cares about itself. Most people in the World, that includes Swedes and Dutchmen don't want or need the American military to watch over them.

    If there is Jihad against India, do you actually think Afghanis would side with India? If you believe that, you do not understand the bond between Muslims of different nationalities, languages, cultures etc. Siding with Non-Muslims in a war against Muslims would make the person in question a Kafir. That is a big no-no to all Muslims with an ounce of faith. Btw, do you know what the Real Taliban think of India?

    You don't know how funny I find this, people like you never learn from history. Of course there are certain Muslims that prefer Worldly riches over the rewards promised to good Muslims in the hereafter, they fall for money, women, land etc. and these are the types of people that countries like India, Israel use as agents, however you can never buy the heart of the Muslim Ummah. When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, Muslims the World over went their for Jihad. They didn't go for money, women, drugs etc. they went there to kill and be killed, they left their homes and families knowing there was a good chance they would not come back to them, they went to Afghanistan to help their Muslim brothers and to please God. Muslims from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Algeria, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Muslims from Europe etc. People with no physical bond with the country of Afghanistan. Maybe one day you might understand why Muslims make such sacrifices.
     
  16. UltiTruth In pursuit... Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks for including India.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It would be an economic hit, of course, if what is happening in Pakistan happened in the US.

    There are large economic issues involved in Pakistan, as well. They might be driving the situation more significantly than is immediately apparent.

    But the fundie religions in the US are not that much different, in their influence and consequences, from those elsewhere - they are just not nationally pervasive enough individually, or between themselves cooperative enough, to stabilize the communities of the whole country against a Pakistan-resembling governmental crisis.

    Hype may have a point - America might very well splinter into warring groups more easily and completely - and spectacularly - than Pakistan has, under equivalent pressure, because of a lack of these ethnic and religious bonds. But it's worth noting how severe the pressures have actually been, in the US, without splintering the country: the race riots, for example, were not small events. And I do not think that the error in US imperial efforts has been an extrapolation of what they had soberly estimated would destroy a US community onto a foreign country and consequent underestimation of the resilience of the locals. I think their chosen methods would fail as spectacularly (or succeed as meagerly) in the US. They think chaos creates compliance, and they overlook that the chaos doesn't go away on command - that compliance amid chaos is not as useful as their projections require.

    It could be that looser organization, less emotionally driven loyalties to ethnic group and extended family, less identification with co-religionists elsewhere, more slack in the reaction system, is good for stability.

    This, for example, is not a prescription for a stable, free, humanly attractive society:
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2009
  18. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Kashmir is occupied Muslim majority land. It doesn't matter if Indians think it belongs to them, it always belongs to the people of Kashmir. Oppressors will never rule our beloved Kashmir. http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5gVeVJxaMWJezjoWCFDsBRfv2Gejw

    Hum Kya Chahte? AZADI. AZADI AZAFI AZADI! Hamara maqsad kya? AZADI! Hamara matlab kya? AZADI! AZADI AZAD AZADI!

    Ameen, brother. Afghanistan and Pakistan are two brothers who will always stand united against the joint plans of all their enemies. The friend of Afghanistan is the friend of Pakistan, the enemy of Pakistan is the enemy of Afghanistan. We are one people from the same root, Indus, Aryan, Mughal lineage. We are the pride of Islam and the bulwarks of Muslim heritage in Asia. We are the culmination of a thousand years experience of Islam in Asia, the great propagators of religion in Asia. The graves of Pakistani and Afghani mystics and saints lie littered throughout Asia. Remember that one of the key architects of Pakistan was Syed Jamal-uddin Afghani with the philosophy of Pan-Islamic unity for which Pakistan was founded. Pakistani doctors and pious scholars transverse Afghanistan to provide medicine, food, water, and education when the entire world turned its back on Afghanistan. Pakistani and Afghani history is intertwined, and will forever be intertwined until the end of time. Pakistanis are the blood relatives Afghanis, and vice versa. The bond of blood does not die. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir Zindabad.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    And if the Pukhtoon fundies are the enemies of Afghanistan and Pakistan alike?

    The tribal blood loyalty there makes them a danger to both countries, if it cannot be compromised.
     
  20. UltiTruth In pursuit... Registered Senior Member

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    Yep, just as Pakisthan is occupied Hindu majority land (now cleansed of course) and belongs to Hindus.
     
  21. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    On top of this, let us all remember, the U.S government DESIRES militant Islam to exist. It is a product of the CIA's research and funding mechinism. We encourage it through or various clandestine channeling through our allies. Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, the United States Military Industrial complex has needed a new enemy to fight, and this enemy has been purposely created and funded. Please read

    REPORT FROM IRON MOUNTAIN:

    ON THE POSSIBILITY AND DESIRABILITY
    OF PEACE


    For more information on why the United States and the West continue the insane policies they do in this part of the world, see; From the Wilderness - The CIA Connection

    Remember Kids, G.O.D. = Gold Oil & Drugs
     
  22. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Majority of Pakistan and Afghanistan were Buddhist before their conversion to Islam. The only regions which had substantial Hindu populations were Punjab and Sindh, now Sindh is 95% Muslim and Pakistani Punjab (75% of world Punjabi population) is 97% Muslim, with the rest of Indian Punjab state (25% of Punjabis) being Sikh. Hinduism doesn't exist in Pakistan because the people of the region rejected pagan idol worship for belief in One God. The Kashmiris have been Buddhists mostly, with the coming of Islamic rule, they converted to Islam. The Kashmiris, along with Punjabis and Pukhtoon, are the descendants of the Indus River valley civilization, whom were relatives of the Iranians. The Indus River Valley civilization was an Aryan (Central Asian, Iranian) civilization, this accounts for the Aryan characteristics and culture of the people living in the region being different than India's. The majority of the people of India are the descendants of the Dravidian (dark people of India, Ganges river based civilization). It is not something to be ashamed of, unless ofcourse, you have a religion which teaches that lighter skinned people are better than darker skinned people. Present Vedic Hindusim is a mixture of Aryan and Dravidian religions.

    This is why Islam is the future, because there is no racism in Islam, and all are equal before God and judged by their deeds, and not their family or ancestry.

    Kashmir is Muslim and forever shall remain so. The Kashmiris are the descendants of the people who have lived there for nearly 4,000 years. The way they chose to live is for themselves to decide, and not outsiders from India to impose on them. freedom and justice will prevail, tyrants and oppressors will face the judgment of God.
     
  23. The Esotericist Getting the message to Garcia Valued Senior Member

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    "An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity."
    ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
     
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