group sex, is it rape?

Meursalt, I think that's best left to law professionals, social workers, and sex therapists to decide if she was used. The fact is, it sounds like to me, she thought she was just going to let some guys watch and got gangbanged.

My ex and I had a friend we had play with us a few times. We told her from the get-go that she didn't have to do anything. She could watch, she could join in, or we could even all just go out and have drinks. The first time we played, it would have been REALLY easy to inflict damage on a girl who was not comfortable with the idea of penetration/performing on a man or woman. Things can go from consensual to non-consensual really fast, and you have to be a responsible, loving partner. We had a great relationship with our friend, and we had a great time respecting everyone's limits. If you feel a girl wincing in pain or squirming to get away and she seems frightened, YOU HAVE TO STOP. It's what good partners do. Not stopping is what a rapist does.

 

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Oh dear.
Save us from professionals, please. It all depends on what side of the fence influenced them the most when they were learning their jobs.
Very few of them will be competent enough to help a girl get over the consequences of her own actions, or teach her how to deal with a mistake rather than simply assuming rape and acting accordingly.

Besides, I'm not deciding she wasn't raped, particularly... I'd say no, but then I'm not saying she was completely willing either.
I'm merely annoyed with anyone who assumes she was.
Like the bitch who bought it into the limelight in order to further her own career without a care for destroying someone else's, or what it might make the girl feel to have it all dragged out again after she was probably mostly over it.
If you want to know about rape, there's another version of it, right there. That should be a crime. We're simply so accustomed to it that we ignore it in the face of whatever it is they want us to pay attention to.

On another note, yes. Threesomes can be good. I've had a bad experience with one, but that was aftermath and not the act itself.

But that isn't what happened here... these guys were strangers to her from the word go, and strangers with a reputation she was more than likely very aware of.
Any girl who ignores that is simply naive.

You know, after all this attention and after so many people saying she was, I'd lay money on her going through the rest of her life believing she was raped... even if she knew she really wasn't when it happened. No one likes to believe they have made a mistake in any situation... and people will find and come to believe any justification for their own mistakes.

It's a pity we live in a society which will bend over backwards to avoid handing out responsibility for one's own actions.
There was a case here not too long ago where a surfer ignored signs saying that the beach was dangerous in rough weather, and ended up getting wave dumped and broke his back. He sued the council because the warning signs weren't obvious enough.
He won. Presumably, society didn't do enough to protect him from his own choices.

It's quite probable that this girl isn't a contender for the Darwin Awards simply because she's a young girl, and given the circumstances probably at least reasonably attractive.
And we all like defending them.

 

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Wouldn't you expect a 19 year old to be naive just because they are 19?

19 year olds may not think they are naive because they are so much less naive than they were at 16. 23 year olds may not think 19 year olds are that naive but that is because 23 year olds are still a little more naive than they realize.

Exploring your self, having adventures, and discovering who you are, and what you like, and what you don't like is exciting and necessary but it sure can go bad quickly.

 

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And you know this HOW? Quit assuming. The girl is obviously not well and obviously a lot of professionals deal with this stuff. I don't think you know how many.

You're assuming she wasn't. As a woman, having been 19, and reading, I'm pretty sure this girl was raped.

We generally don't smile upon girls who obviously have some alternative sexual interests. I'm not saying this girl was a pure virgin. Au contrair.

Rape is about taking power from someone. This girl didn't seem to have an opportunity to say no.

Maybe because you and your partners weren't paying enough attention before and during your activities.

She obviously knew some of them. I thought I was invincible when I was 19. That didn't mean I should be exploited.

I've made sexual mistakes, and admittedly some of it might look like rape from an outsider's view, but I've never been raped. I'd say fewer women want to admit they were raped than did something stupid. That's an incredibly misogynistic thing to say that a young woman's loss of control over a situation means she wasn't raped because her sexual fantasies may have been outside the norm.

Strawman.

I don't think ANYONE is defending that she made some dumb choices. However, just because someone makes dumb choices doesn't mean they didn't get raped.

 

That's what every single woman said about the Duke case.

Your biased assumptions are no better than anyone else's biased assumptions.

 

I'm not sure why I feel like talking about this now, but I do. I haven't really shared this with anyone who doesn't live in China, so this is a first...

What you just said is a cultural phenomenon. It is limited. I'm not sure how many cultures it is true in, but I do know there are cultures where it is not true. One of those is China.

(this is a bit explicit, so ignore it if you want...)

The first girlfriend I had in China wanted to take things a bit slow, which I was totally fine with. On the sixth or seventh date she came to my place and we got in bed. After a while I went to take off her shirt and she said "no". Quietly, and without much effort, but she said it. So I stopped and we took a breather. A minute later she got back on me and we started making out. When I eventually went for her shirt again, she said "no" and I stopped again - as would any self-respecting Western male. Again she was unhappy and I couldn't figure out what I'd done wrong. This happened in a slightly different fashion over the next three dates. On the last one I had gotten her shirt off and was trying to go for more when she pushed my hands away and said "no" again.

The morning after the last of those dates I was talking to her and she was obviously unhappy. I honestly believed it was because I had tried to go to far and she was offended. I asked her if that was the case and she looked at me like I was crazy. "Tyler, we've been going out more than a month and we haven't done anything! Why don't you take control? Do you not want me?" I was blown away. I was totally suspecting the opposite, and yet she was unhappy that I hadn't gone further! I told her I stopped because she said "no" and pushed my hands away. (In retrospect, I should have just said 'sorry, don't worry, we'll fuck tonight' and stopped thinking about it.) She shook her head in disgust at me and stormed off.

So a night or two later we get back into bed and I get the shirt off, the pants off, etc. all with some minor resistance from her. I figure she's made it clear that she wants more, so the minor resistance must be meaningless; if she starts putting up any bigger of a fight I'll stop.

Finally we get to the big show. Just as I entered she grimaced in pain. I asked her if it hurt and she said "ohhh, yes!!" So I pulled out, tried a different angle, and gave it my best shot again. Each time I tried to go in it looked like I'd just taken her virginity (I hadn't), and she looked horribly uncomfortable. I asked her if she wanted to stop and she said yes, it's too painful. So I stopped. This was my first girlfriend in China and I really didn't want to mess things up, so I was totally okay with all this. She, on the other hand, continued to look horribly pissed off. I'm not sure what caused me to get over my fear of being too aggressive, but I eventually just pushed her down, got on top, got inside and started to go to town. After about a minute it was pretty clear that she was enjoying herself.

Afterward we lay together totally content. But every time we had sex it was the same song and dance. She would protest at the removal of every piece of clothing, say I was too big and that it hurt too much, scream like I was beating her in the face and nearly cry. And she wanted me to hold her down, force it on her, etc.

This is not unique to this girl. Since that time I've had enough experience in China to know it's quite common. Even a girl you sleep with regularly - girlfriend or otherwise - will often protest every step of the way, but be disappointed and disgusted in you if her protests lead to you stopping.

The natural question is "well then how do you know when it really is rape???? If every girl is going to pretend like she doesn't want it, how do you know when she really doesn't want it?" There are a bunch of answers to this one in China. The clearest one is that no Chinese girl is going to sit alone in your bed if she doesn't want to have sex with you. If they don't like you in that way, they won't go alone to your house at night. Very simple. Another answer is that the girls who are just faking-not-liking-it will lie completely still so that it's easier for you to take their clothes off, while the girls who really do want to take it slower will tighten up so that it's harder. If the subtleties of their actions are too hard for you to read, you can always do what I did and just stop every time they say "no": If they get pissed off at you for doing that, then they didn't really mean "no".

For whatever reason, Chinese girls often think that boys like to feel 100% in control, dominant and almost like an attacker. Maybe that's what Chinese boys like, I don't know. One girl I've been with would always yell out "what are you going to do to me? Oh no! It's going to kill me! It's too big, it's too hard! You must let me go!" but she'd be smiling and having a great time and would constantly come back for more. If she'd been my first experience and I'd heard her scream "please let me go!" I would have, well, let her go! And she would have been disappointed.

What I'm trying to say is that Western sex culture is not universal. The same holds true in many areas, beyond the "no means no" line. Before being in China I would have strongly supported the notion that a girlfriend or wife has no responsibility to have sex when she's not in the mood. But in China the traditional view is that a woman ought to (not must, but ought to) let a man take what he needs, as he is responsible for bringing in the money that will send the kids to university. The woman's job is to make sure the family and house are happy. If she's not putting out, the man won't be happy. I'm sure some women resent this approach, but many have been use to this thinking since childhood and are happiest when they perform their roles best. The same way many Chinese men will choose to work 20 hours overtime a week for an extra $10 to give their wife - a choice I view as utterly insane. In Canada I would hope my wife or girlfriend only has sex when she wants to and never feels forced; likewise I hope my wife understands I'm not going to work 20 hours overtime just so that she can buy an extra pair of shoes.

Cultures are different. Adjustment is difficult, but you're awfully naive if you think that sexual norms of the west are some sort of universal truth.

 

Of course, Tyler, it's not universal, but we're talking about a Western girl in a Western country.

I also actually enjoy domination from time to time, but an important element is trusting your partner. I had a partner knew when I'd say "no" it didn't mean no, and the same was true for him. I'm looking forward to that kind of open sexual relationship again, but you KNOW in the west how some things work.

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I appreciated your story, and I think it certainly adds a lot of food for thought. I don't want a Chinese man, for sure.

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If the Duke case happened all over again I would believe the woman again and be wrong again. In general in cases that look like the Duke case the woman is probably not lying. I am not saying the guys should be convicted in those situations because "reasonable doubt" is and should be a fairly high standard to meet.


"The clearest one is that no Chinese girl is going to sit alone in your bed if she doesn't want to have sex with you." This sounds just like what we used to say in the USA and what some of us still say. I don't trust the statement.

What is a guy to do with women who have conflicted feelings in which both their "yes" and their "no" are true?

 

I wonder how many male Chinese immigrants are charged with rape and not understanding why

 

This story is ridiculous, I don't care about the guys involved because I find typical leaguies that get into these gang bang sessions to be homo scumbags, BUT, it's for this reason that the women who fuck them deserve it when they're unsurprisingly treated like shit. She should be ashamed of herself, she should be suicidal with shame and humiliation. I'm not surprised she is, she did something totally degrading and awful and came out smelling like shit, that's called consequences for your actions. It took her days to realise how disgusting she was, she came out bragging about it for the next 4 or 5 days, then eventually came to the realisation that what she did was in fact kind of fucked up. I'm sure the guys involved felt kind of dirty too, that's what happens when you engage in activities of this nature.

Trying to find a victim amongst these disgusting pigs is a joke, I guess the men involved could argue that they're just men and not evolutionarily adapted to saying "no" to free poon tang, the girl has no such excuse, women are very very good at saying no, it's their specialty as organisms, to turn down dick, if a woman can't do that she hardly qualifies as a woman at all.

There's a reason all of human society through history has looked down upon sluts, recently we've tried to tell girls they can be sluts and it's ok, this dumb bitch has learned the reality that this is not true at all, it's not ok, you can try and tell yourself it is but after the fact your body and soul will tell you it's not, that is what this pig of a woman is experiencing right now, but she only has herself (and maybe modern pro-slut political correctness for deluding her) to blame.

I sit back and laugh at this shit catching up on the footy fags, it doesn't bother me at all that they are being wrongly persecuted, but it bothers me this equally slimey slut is being coddled and treated like a victim just because she has shaggers remorse.

 

Thanks! I'm really not sure what Chinese men are like in bed, I haven't exactly slept with any of them! But I do know that the average girl's mentality is that she ought to be submissive. I've also had girlfriends before who would play that role sometimes, but I've never had it played so earnestly outside of China. It took me a few months to really adjust to the difference, and I can honestly say I'm scared to return to Canada and start up a sexual relationship, because I think it will take me time to adjust back to Canadian norms.

I can understand that. It's safer to believe the woman, though that shouldn't hold to the extreme of saying a woman's word is 'beyond reasonable doubt'. At least you can admit that it's just you opting for a safer route, and quite possibly not true.

I doubt very many. I think any Canadian girl who really didn't want to have sex with him would make it much clearer than the Chinese girls' 'fake-no'. In Canadian education I've had it drilled into my head since puberty that any hint of "no" means you fucking stop right away. Any hint of not wanting it means she must 100% not want it, or at least that I should err on the side of caution. But no girl in China has really put up any kind of fight like I would expect someone who is genuinely being raped would do.

Though I can imagine Asian men being confused by a girl coming over alone at night and not wanting something sexual. In China I've literally never had a girl come to my house alone who didn't want something to happen. It's a very clear signal in this country. Whereas back home a girl coming over is not necessarily anything more than a buddy.

I'm sure Asian men would realize that the girl genuinely didn't want anything if she was being vocal enough about it. Even though I've adjusted to this side, I still have times when I naturally err on the side of caution and it ends up being a misread of the girl. One who I'm currently seeing was over at my house a few weeks ago and I tried to start something up. She was kind of nonchalant about it and didn't really seem so into it. I asked her if she wanted to have sex and she said not really, that she was a bit tired and not in a good mood. So I stopped. A minute later she looked really grumpy and I asked why. After pressing for a few minutes she finally blurted out "why can't you just be a man and take what you want?"

 

I think you've said quite enough right there. I also think the name you chose suits you quite well in this case...

Anyway, you are mistaken. Very, very, very mistaken. No one "deserves" being treated like excrement.

 

O rly?

 

Sigh. Yeah, really.

 

Well, we can agree that she's not well. She might have been a lot better off without all this attention and hoo ha, but that's bye the bye now.
As to the professionals... I think I'll just leave that there.

No. I'm arguing that she wasn't.

It takes a lot more than media reports to make me believe anyone's point of view. People aren't inherently honest, least of all with themselves. By the time their own version of events makes it as far as media reports, and then sifted through again in an attempt to make it sound like it supports whatever axe the reporter is grinding, truth has become a caricature.

The assumption is in the hands of the majority, as it usually is.

Not generally, no.
That is one reason why this girl has been painted as a victim.

Was she gagged, then? I hadn't read about that either. Part of the S&M, I presume.

I hardly think you're in a position to comment on that without knowing the details. I can forgive you based on the "maybe", though.

Was that in the papers, too? Obvious how, exactly? A visiting Australian team in New Zealand, from what I remember. Nothing was said about prior relationships that I noticed, but I'll say again I wasn't paying that much attention really.

Of course not. But the main difference in our arguments here is that you are arguing that she wasn't a willing participant, and I'm arguing that she was far more willing then either she or the media has led us to believe.

You wrote this... read it again.
Now imagine what you call "mistakes" as experienced and described by a young woman with a far weaker mind.

This particular girl didn't have much choice in the matter, did she. It was all over the news. Perhaps the best choice in her own mind was to go along with it. Swept along, as it were.
On the face of it, it would be consistent with her prior displays of strength of character, wouldn't it?

Two things.
Firstly, I'm not so much a misogynist as a misanthropist.
Secondly... I didn't say that at all. I've said virtually nothing about her sexual fantasies, primarily because I haven't a clue what they might be. There is nothing I've read to indicate whether or not she'd done this sort of thing before. I did not say it was her loss of control of the situation that meant she wasn't raped. I think we both agree that she lost control of the situation, but I think we differ on the degree. You're conveniently ignoring that she, in spite of this feeling of powerlessness, in spite of her being intimidated and tongue tied, she pointed at Johns and said she wanted him again.

That sound like "paralysis" to you?

Fair enough. I was merely trying to point out the difference in the attitudes towards men who do stupid things and women who do. I can think of another example but I think that horse has bolted.

Neither does it mean she did.

Tyler:
I've found Asian women in general to be far too submissive. There simply isn't much joy in a woman who rarely tells you how she feels about something or what she wants, preferring instead to let you do all the driving yourself.
I don't want to have to extract a woman's opinion as if I'm pulling teeth.

 

I've had that same issue at times, though less with the in-bedroom stuff than with the out-of-bedroom stuff. Every time I saw my ex I'd ask her what she wanted to do. "Whatever you like." Argh! Where do you want to eat? "You choose." She would never, ever, ever let her preference be known.

I think I've fully acclimatized to the in-bedroom stuff. I miss the variety that comes with a Western girl; one night she's submissive, the next she's taking control, the next it's more romantic... whatever. In China it's the same song and dance each time. It's not that it's a bad song and dance - I happen to enjoy it - I'd just be happier if there was a little bit of change-up every so often.

That said, I am worried that I'll come off as a selfish lover if I return to Canada and have a western girl. I've gotten so use to being completely in control that I'm not sure how quickly I'll remember to give up that control!

 

If every woman is saying this, maybe there's something to it. If I asked a question about a guy and every guy on here said the same thing, I'd listen.

Let's pretend what she did was consensual. Look, my body couldn't handle more than one man at a time, and I've had a guy wear me out. I don't think I'd ever want more than one at once, but how does wanting sex with more than one man make you bad?

I never told my ex no once in almost four years, and I assure you I'm ALL woman. Then again, he never asked when he knew I was uncomfortable. It's a two way street.

Not all societies have followed the one man, one woman model on sex. Who defines what "slut" is? I've never cheated on a partner and I've had fewer male sex partners than a lot of my friends, but I've probably had more sex and done more kinky stuff. I don't judge anyone for their sex lives, and I've been called a slut on several occasions.

She had sex get out of control. What she went through was painful and humiliating. I've had things get a little out of control and humiliating with ONE man, but I always knew he'd stop. She didn't have that comfort.

And, honestly, this bores me about most Canadian and American men. European men are more willing to push the line. Don't know about Asian men. I felt VERY angry in a relationship where the man would never initiate sex, and he was very American. I mean, he'd NEVER just out of the blue touch my ass or say, "I really want to do [x] to you right now." I've had two European lovers, and there's a better sense of being desired with them. In turn, I come onto them more, and they're excited by the whole American notion of women being the sexual aggressors. It works really well.

And I'm the same, but this doesn't sound right, ignoring all that the girl said.

We don't paint kinky people as victims ever.

Come on. It's not easy to say no when you're thinking someone might beat the shit out of you. Women are conditioned to be agreeable. A better way of telling is if your partner is dry/clenching/obviously in pain. When you're surrounded by a group of intimidating guys, saying no is challenging.

Same to you.

Who the hell could get entangled in a gangbang without knowing some of the people? I've been invited to swinger stuff because I know people involved. You have to know someone. Did she hear an ad on the radio? HAD to know some of them.

I disagree. Look, I think she got something very different from what she thought it would be and became frightened she'd get hurt during it. She got hurt anyway. It doesn't mean her partners are entitled to force what she doesn't want because they've scared her into obeying.

Still a fundamental difference. My partners were always nice enough even if he was too rough while I wasn't able to object after handing over the reins, he looked after me. These guys used her and seemingly did stuff she didn't even agree to beforehand.

I don't know that fucking up and getting gangraped at 19 means you have weak character. Explain that.

She was pressured. Also I missed that this was proven on saying she wanted someone again, and anyway, even if she wanted someone again does not mean someone had the right to have sex with her against his will.

Depends when it occurred. I think she was too scared to get away.

I'd rather someone err on the side of wanting me too much and leaving me a little tired than being too shy.

 

Oh no. It's Leukemia.

Turning down dick does not make you a woman; if this was an actual instinct not enough of us would have reproduced to keep the species alive.

Women have an instinct to be selective about who they fuck, sure. But to actually turn down sex when they want it? Where the fuck did you get that from? Out of your ass, same as almost everything you post here?

 

In my experience some men and women find because of an abusive past they are unable to communicate and end up being coerced into a scenario they do not know how to stop. The law cannot protect these people because it would take a degree of feeling on the part of the person who wants sex to be able to understand the inability of the person being asked for sex to say they weren't comfortable with it. And we can't make laws about how people don't understand the complexities of others or their lack of ability to communicate. If a 14 year old girl feels very uncomfortable saying she doesn't want to have sex with a 19 year old boy, but nevertheless goes upstairs and silently allows him to use her because she can't say no, is that 19 year old morally unsound for using her and is he prosecutable by law? Yes and yes would be my answers. And so I think the woman in this example was abused by a group of men, it would be exactly the same answer given if it were to happen the other way around. But that doesn't happen as often, since most rapists are men:

http://www.crime.smartlibrary.org/NewInterface/segment.cfm?segment=1719

http://sisyphe.org/spip.php?article2297

http://therumpus.net/2009/02/the-rumpus-interview-with-jaclyn-friedman/

http://www.citadel.edu/commandant/operations-and-training/training/cadre%20powerpoint%207-08.ppt

(Just in case that's read as conjecture and not fact.)

Just to sum up, no, it' not rape, but it's definitely vile. On the other hand, if the girl was to have had a wonderful time and really enjoyed it no abuse would have taken place and she would not be feeling violated seven years on. But she did. So there was. If I was on a jury I'd have to seriously consider whether this man was capable of rape, and I'd have to say this display of lack of feeling for the girl suggests he is. And so I'd think locking him up might make him think more carefully about humiliating people in the future and to what extent that might lead if this case wasn't treated seriously. Good job I'm not able to make these kinds of judgements alone with any affect because I wonder if I see things quite black and white.

 

I don't know. I think this is why we have juries, because some things aren't clear on a "by the book" level.

At the very least, she was coerced, and that's cruel.