group sex, is it rape?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, May 14, 2009.

?

is this rape

  1. Yes

    7.3%
  2. No

    75.6%
  3. Other

    14.6%
  4. Want to vote

    2.4%
  1. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    Women give all sorts of reasons for why they try to be attractive. Nobody ever asks men why they are trying to be attracted. Why does a guy buy porn or go to a strip club? Is he trying to be attracted? No, it is simply men's nature to be attracted and if he does not see anything to be attracted to he will seek out something to be attracted to.

    I think the reason women's answers to why they are trying to be attractive never quite seem to explain all the contexts in which women try to be attractive is because the question is wrong. There is no reason why women try to be attractive it is just their nature to try to be attractive.

    If I am correct then there is no need to say women want attention, or are dressing and primping for their self confidence, or for men, or other women, or to show their clothes, or to compete, or to fit in and be accepted, or any of the other reasons given. They are just doing it because they are compelled.

    To a lessor degree it is men's nature to try to be attractive and women's nature to be attracted and what it means for each gender to be attractive is subject to changes in fashion and culture. Each person has personal styles to which they are attracted and personal styles through which they try to be attractive. Some people are exceptions to the general rule and are not compelled much towards being attracted and or are not compelled much towards attracting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2009
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  3. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    One, you didn't actually answer my point. How much skin is provocative? Is it provocative if you can see my morphology? There's not a lot I can do about my body's lines being visible through loose clothes, unless I were to get a burka, which I don't intend to do. Is it provocative if the revealing clothes are functional, such as for sport or hot weather? Am I asking to be raped if I'm wearing a sleeveless top and shorts to avoid heat? It's all subjective.

    Two, interesting use of language (the bold part). You say 'actions have consequences' as if these things were immutable, as if they just 'happen'. They don't. Low life so-called "men" choose to harass and rape.

    Maybe I'm just being overly pedantic, but I'll point this out anyway.

    If I choose to jump across a gap from one high structure to another, *that* is a situation where you can reasonably say something like 'actions have consequences'. You have an immutable set of rules at work there. You know what those rules are: gravity exists, and your coordination may not be perfect. I know I'll fall if I misjudge that leap. Just a fact.

    If you choose to wear revealing clothes, however, there is no such immutable set of rules/laws of nature at work. Maybe those guys over there hanging out in a pack are normal men who look for willing women, or if they can't find one, go home and look at some porn and masturbate, like a normal person. Maybe they're not. Maybe they think the lines of my body are sexy, and don't much care if I'm willing or not. Maybe they don't. Maybe they would rather hang out in a park where it's dark and there are no witnesses, and rape a random girl just because she's there. Which should I bank on? Like I already pointed out earlier in this thread, revealing clothes don't necessarily mean you'll get harassed. I wasn't wearing revealing clothes in the pub last weekend. I was wearing loose fit black jeans and an also loose fit leather jacket. I still got harassed. What's your take on that?

    Do you see what I mean?
     
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  5. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    I think it's mental as well.

    I have absolutely no desire to have a baby.

    Also, I have ideals of beauty that others don't think are beautiful at all, and don't correspond to signals of fertility.

    Most women want to look slender, with long legs and a heart shaped face. This seems to be society's standard and only definition of a nice looking female.

    I would rather look rugged and harsh, and I really don't want long legs. I've also always wanted to have really thick neck muscles that make a sharply everted line. (I think I get my ideas of beauty from wild animals...)
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2009
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  7. Diode-Man Awesome User Title Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,372
    " group sex, is it rape? "

    This thread has raped my mind.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. mickeyboy2007 Registered Member

    Messages:
    9
    In relation to first question;
    Does everyone forget how little you think of life ahead when your a teenager?

    Personally, I think that no rape occured if she wanted/willing the group sex at the time. If she wanted out of it at the time, she should have got out, but if she was forced not to be able to leave, then yes it's rape. So it's a haunting regret. No crime. No law in this world can stop greed, even the greed of the sports person partaking in the group sex at the time. It's an unfortunate turn of events which ended a career, put marrage on the line and haunted the young lady to far afterwards.

    Please remember people, some people in this world are dieing at the age of birth, some people in this world have no food to eat, no shelter, no medicine, all due to the greed that drives us all for the power of progress in our own lives, human drive can be so very damaging. Many people have fought for freedom of will, however, why is it in this crazy day and age people feel pressured into doing things and not standing up and making their voice clear!
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2009
  9. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    You're right that there are certainly worse things happening in the world. That doesn't mean what happened was good though. I think what happened was coersion; to put it in the same boat as rape may be stretching things. This doesn't mean it shouldn't be outlawed, but I have a strong feeling that people are going to have to learn that just because a person doesn't say no doesn't mean they want to do something. Apparently they belittled her to take off her clothes. Obviously, what would have been best from an analytical point of view would be to have the whole thing taped and then we could go over the details and argue whether x or y action was justifiable. This is setting aside the very real possibility that she may well have preferred that it wasn't taped, I'm only mentioning this because when we don't have something objective, like a cam corder and people start disagreeing as to what happened exactly, things can get complicated. While it's true that even video can be edited, good video editing generally requires a fair amount of expertise.

    I think some good things have been said though; from a purely logical standpoint, most women don't want to have group sex at all, let alone with a bunch of strangers. So, some questions; are american jocks less educated then your average american man when it comes to what women generally want? Less caring? Was this team the worst of the lot? Many questions, not enough answers.
     
  10. mickeyboy2007 Registered Member

    Messages:
    9
    Blittled her into taking off her cloths, ic.
    Of course it's not good, it fustrates me how vunerable people really are, even through simple communication, it's a form of bullying. I suppose theres regret in life, and then theres regret your forced to feel out of your control?

    I don't know the whole story, i skimmed the start.
     
  11. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    I think the most in depth post on what happened is one from Bells:
    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2254771&postcount=62
     
  12. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    Learning that and applying it in law are two drastically different matters. When was the last time you asked someone "do you consent to us having sexual intercourse?" before the event?? Who really kills the mood that much? And who hasn't had sex a couple times when they weren't really in the mood? I'm a guy and I've certainly put out even when I wasn't really feeling it.

    I disagree with you completely on this. Trying to correct law or education so that boys understand "no no does not necessarily mean yes" is absurd. (1) If a girl really isn't into it, you know from the start. It doesn't take extra years of in-school education to figure that one out. (2) If the girl doesn't let it be known she's not into it, that's her own damn fault. Sex seems to be the only situation where people think the reverse is reasonable. In any other event in life if I say I did something I didn't want to the response of every person will be "so why didn't you say no?"

    Moreover, the "no" is much easier to judge by legally.

    That said, it's still a horribly flawed system. It just may be the only one possible. Or, to paraphrase Churchill "it's the worst possible system except all the other ones." I don't have the research in front of me but in an absurd number of cases where it's the girls word against the boys - with no other information to go on - the courts go with the girl. Just last year a Canadian business owner lost everything - his car, house, family, children, job - because two girls accused him of rape. A few months later they caught the girls chatting about how they'd made it all up and the man was let go. But he'd already lost everything in his entire world.

    "It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death."
    - Maimonidies
     
  13. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    That is why the death penalty should be outlawed.

    The conviction rate in cases that go to trial in the US is about 85%. Wildly guessing, I think about 10% of the people in prison did not do the crime for which they are in prison and 50% of people found not guilty were guilty.
     
  14. lucifers angel same shit, differant day!! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,590
    yeah but dont most criminals say that?
     
  15. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,383
    Maybe a third of them say they are innocent. Just because most people who say they are innocent are lying does not mean all people who say they are innocent are lying.

    I think it is common for law enforcement to frame people that they believe are guilty and I think some juries would convict anybody the a talented prosecutor tells them to convict of any crime. It is just more pleasant for the jury to believe that the bad guys have been caught and will be sent to jail rather than thinking the bad guys are still wandering the streets.
     
  16. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    I think it is rare


    Its a prosecutors job to get the jury to believe the proof he has given
     
  17. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207
    See I totally appreciate those people because I can move on that much faster to some one who is interesting. Its the people who think that but say otherwise that annoy me.
     
  18. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207

    Is she a slut? You can't determin this just by looking at some one's dress, despite what prudes think.

    But I can tell you she spent a lot on those pants. Remember what I said earlier about horizontal creases? Those pants fit her like a glove and were profressionally distressed. Add the lack of bikini lines and sculpted body and I'd say she's either a professional model or some one with a lot of money to spend on achieving a particular look.
     
  19. swarm Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,207
    You might be surprised. Those instincts run really deep and the conscious where we "absolutely have no desire" is really new.
     
  20. lucifers angel same shit, differant day!! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,590
    and you might be surprised i went to school with girls who didnt want children at any cost and now in they're 30's (some are 37) dont have children. but also saying that i knew girls who from the age of 13 wanted kids, and one of the girls now have 7 kids, i am they're godmother, i tend to call them:

    sleepy
    dopey
    doc
    grump
    bashful
    happy
    and the other one
     
  21. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,913
    Um, how does that work?

    We have a conscious self that can't stand babies, and a deep one that really really wants to have a child? I would like to know how that works?

    I'm not entirely un-maternal. I do sometimes find kids really nice to be around and enjoy taking care of them, however, the idea of doing that myself, full time....nghghhhhhh.

    I would have to suppress a huge part of my personality. The part that listens to Metallica so loud people feel the bass vibrations a couple of streets away. The part that likes to stay up until 5am on the computer then sleep until 3pm. The part that doesn't care if I paralyze myself in a mountain bike crash.

    That self is about 70% of me, and she's not compatible with being a stable responsible mother. Where would she go? That's why I probably won't have kids. Those 'instincts that run really deep' would have their way, but I would die inside.

    Maybe I will mellow with age and the idea of having kids will become more important...I don't know.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2009
  22. Meursalt Comatose Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    395
    Of course not. But that's a strawman... at no point does it appear she asked them to stop either. You think a half dozen drunken rugby players are going to be paying too much attention to "subtle signals"?
    Subtle, as in her pointing at Johns at one point and saying "I want you again"?

    Doesn't "sound like" anything at all. Could mean anything to anyone who wasn't there and only sees words in print.
    Same with the carpark afterwards. Does anyone know how she replied to his apology? I don't.
    After all, it's not as if her reply was important, is it.

    Not at all, Bells. What caused the massive uproar and subsequent "investigation" is that it involved high-profile sports stars.
    The feelings of sports stars towards women (as a generalisation) are already well known.

    That same humiliation which caused her to brag about it the next day?

    Or perhaps the humiliation of the whole town knowing about it and her sudden need to not be seen as a total whore in the eyes of her peers, the media, and audiences in two countries or more?

    Which particular cause of humiliation are we speaking about here? The event itself, or the aftermath?

    Let me ask you a question. Do you feel any anger at all towards a certain individual in the media who brought the whole event into the light again after such a long time and apparently didn't "consider the feelings" of this girl at all?
    Not to mention Johns, who already been investigated and cleared at the time.
    It was a woman, by the way.

    Or is that different?

    S&M? Is this something else that's "come out afterward" when she's under the spotlight, or did you just throw it in yourself?
    I hadn't heard about it... but then I wasn't really paying much attention after the first couple of days.

    Right. So what you're really pissed off about, is that these Rugby players she got went out looking for, got drunk and went home with didn't make love to her.

    It's a fairly fine distinction for someone to make in claiming that while going out on the town with the express purpose of fucking a couple of drunken rugby players didn't make her feel like a whore, having it exposed that she was eventually had by a half dozen did. Then she begins to complain about not being treated like a lady?

    Nice spin.
    The charges weren't dropped because there "wasn't enough evidence".
    The charges were dropped because the girl got herself into a situation she didn't quite expect, and then went along with it. The charges were dropped, Bells, because it didn't appear to be a rape at all in the eyes of the police who investigated the incident long before the media got hold of it.

    Apparently, she didn't care either. Then it happened to her.

    Now, of course, that's because he's a high profile sports star who sees women as objects, right? The type who's probably seen a hundred others do very much the same thing, and had no reason to expect anything else from this one.
    It doesn't appear to have occurred to you that he doesn't feel guilt because there was no indication at the time he had anything to feel guilty for.
    He's supposed to be so concerned for the feelings of a girl who points at him and says "I want you again" while all this is going on? Is he supposed to have a degree in psychology and think to himself "Oh, wait... it's all an act, she's not having fun at all"?

    Johns appeared to be contrite afterwards (a long time afterwards, I might add) because his career was suddenly threatened. And his marriage. We know that.

    It's not illegal to offer your daughter to a football team. It's merely a bit sick. It would probably cost you your daughter, too... but then again, it might not.

    Because we all know, Bells, that while there is a fair amount of derogatory conduct and feeling towards women evidenced by high profile male celebrities, there are also an equal amount of women quite willing to go along with that. There always have been.

    Neither is what happened to this girl illegal. That's why no charges were laid, Bells.

    If it was my daughter? I'd be sympathetic (understatement). I'd also hope she learned a valuable lesson from it.
    I wouldn't see her as a whore, or a rape victim - just a young girl who did something stupid.

    Ah, no, wait a minute.
    You are assuming she was too petrified to say no, because you've heard that happens in some cases and because that's what she says now she's under the spotlight.

    No, it wasn't. She always had the choice to say no. She didn't.
    Interesting that you seem to think women in general are so weak willed as to require laws to protect them when they say nothing. Let's not mention again her asking for more at at least one point.

    And, strangely enough, if you look on the internet for a minute you'll find that line is rather common.
    About as common, I'd say, as Johns' crocodile tears after the event.
    Both had an image to defend.

    And how are they supposed to change those laws, Bells?
    Every girl who gets had the night before from a casual encounter in a bar, gets embarrassed, cries rape and suddenly starts talking about how she "couldn't say no because she was under pressure" will see him in jailed on her whim?

    Perhaps it would be easier for women if they simply didn't get into those sort of situations.
    Ah, but now we're talking about the youthful lack of wisdom, aren't we?
    And that's the thing isn't it. Thousands of young people all over the globe are stupid at one point or another and end up paying a price. Most of the time no one gets hurt, and the net result is acute embarrassment.

    The girl didn't get hurt, Bells. Well, maybe she was a little sore for a couple of days.

    Same sort of "hurt" a young kid who got drunk and goes out looking for a fight, and picked one with someone he couldn't handle. That happens all the time, too.
    Only, that young kid is merely seen as being a stupid young kid, and any attempt by him to call assault afterwards would be met with derision.
    And, strangely enough, no lengthy discussions here about how he was too petrified to say "no" in the middle of the fight, and the law should be changed to protect him.

    Are you going to call for laws to be introduced protecting all kids from making stupid mistakes, now?

    She got embarrassed. She felt stupid. She got herself into something she didn't know how to deal with.
    And everyone found out about it.

    Well, welcome to the world. See, a few years ago it would have been a lesson, and she would grown up a bit. A little older, a little wiser, as they say.
    Now, she's a psychologically damaged rape victim in the eyes of the world, and everyone who knows her.

    I wonder which she thinks is worse, now.
     
  23. scott3x Banned Banned

    Messages:
    3,785
    I think there are many, many misunderstandings in this world. I myself think we should distinguish her case, where she wasn't exactly clear that she didn't want to engage in sexual activities, and other cases, where it's quite clear. In this case, I prefer the term 'coersive sex'. As to being a little older, a little wiser, I'm sure she is. I pray society will get to the point where no one else has to go through what she had to in order to learn that the world isn't as friendly as what I think it will one day become.
     

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