Real story behind Columbine

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by mikenostic, Apr 15, 2009.

  1. tuberculatious Banned Banned

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    Trenchcoats are never a good sign. They are always worn by people lacking a self identity or actors. Which is basically the same thing.
     
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  3. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    That society is not the one to take the exclusive blame. I have never argued that society is the only one to blame, as if the one who pulled the trigger had no blame to take.

    I said:

    'Shared responsibility'.

    You, however, seem to think that responsibility is exclusive to one person only, to the immediate doer only.


    'Turning out a majority of people who do not behave in this way'?

    Society is not the only factor in how 'someone turns out', nor is neurobiology, nor is the person themselves. How a person 'turns out' is complex.

    You, however, seem to wish to pin it down only on one factor.


    The 'strong and able'?? Those 'strong and able' who turned this planet into a landfill? Those 'strong and able' who brought about the breakdown of the world's economy?
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Well where do you go with it? Do you also blame the grandparents because they failed as parents which lead to their daughter being a prostitute? Who else is responsible? I do not think its responsible to blame another for a mistake one has made. They did it, they are responsible for it. Its a lazy excuse.

    Signal: Turning out a majority of people who do not behave in this way'?

    Society is not the only factor in how 'someone turns out', nor is neurobiology, nor is the person themselves. How a person 'turns out' is complex. You, however, seem to wish to pin it down only on one factor.

    Well if its not the only factor why are you blaming someones mother for a decision taken by an adult? You want to blame the parents, blame their genes but at the end of the day you can only blame the individual.

    Signal: The 'strong and able'?? Those 'strong and able' who turned this planet into a landfill? Those 'strong and able' who brought about the breakdown of the world's economy?

    You need to get out a little bit. I travel a lot and see beauty everywhere quality and value in life isn't dependent on the economy. You sound like someone who only sees doom and gloom in everything.
     
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    A great number of people.

    Like I said, this is correct in principle, but pactically impossible to implement.


    What you are suggesting is a way of seeing oneself as the only one who makes mistakes.

    Acknowledging that others are not angels and that others have made mistakes that lead to a decrease of the quality of one's life is very powerful. This is not the same as assigning others the exclusive blame for one's failings.
    Focusing only on your own failings and thinking they all happened because of your own (stupidity, weakness, whatever) makes you insane.

    It is powerful to understand that if you live in a society of faulty people, you are likely going to pick up their faults as well - and that therefore, it would be better to change the circle of people you interact with.


    I didn't put an exlusive blame on the mother.

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    One, I used the example to show the principle.
    Two, one can only 'blame' a conscious entity who is capable of intent, hence 'genes' cannot be blamed.


    I don't think we will ever understand eachother. So I won't even try to communicate with you anymore.
     
  8. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Not the only one who makes mistakes but the only one accountable for those mistakes. Focusing on how someone else could have provoked a 'mistake' (is that what we call opre-meditated murder these days?) that leads to someone elses death is not insane but cowardly and immature at best. You assume that ones company accounts for these kind of irrational behaviours and I disagree.

    Whatever.

    This illustrates my point a lot better than I can:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch9qgQWTPRQ&feature=related
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  9. sniffy Banned Banned

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    Er they used the same affidavit to search Harris's home AFTER the shootings

    Plenty of evidence to issue a warrant (hint: an affidavit IS the legal grounds) but no actual action. What does that suggest to you? To me it smacks of incompetence and cover up. Or that they thought these two middle-class white boys couldn't possibly commit such a crime.

    I mean if those boys had been black I suspect they'd have had that warrant issued, the homes searched and their arses hauled off for questioning quicker than you could say 'whitewash'.

    Just cause is a death threat against a fellow student/s. They made several verbally and on the website.

    Hello!?

    You might be a little concerned about a couple of notorious boys who lived a few hundred yards away from the bomb that was discovered, who's own website described the same bomb in detail and who had given death threats to fellow pupils and were openly threatening to do something 'huge' on the anniversary of the oklahoma bombings (in two months time) and was already known to the police....mighten ya?



    Well they WOULD say that now wouldn't they? I mean the police wouldn't possibly lie to cover their arses now would they? I mean the biggest mass shooting in history had just happened on their doorstep and in a high school! SHIT!! But of course since then just how much they did know has been made public. Plenty of stuff is still being kept secret though.....because if it does come out those guys will be hung, drawn and quartered.

    They were known criminals.....
    I am suggesting that if you have a catalogue of concerns you investigate.

    Another known criminal, armed and maintained by the US and its (then) mighty tax dollar subject to a massive cover up.

    Wake UP!!
     
  10. sniffy Banned Banned

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    Your link actually illustrates that psychotics are not responsible for their mistakes (is that what they call violently compulsive bahaviour these days?), that they are identifiable form a realtively young age but that society isn't quite ready to accept that such people are doing these things out of compulsion not out of immaturity, cowardlyness or a general sense of existential angst! BTW thanks for including a clip that includes my man Hare........

    So a biological cause for psychopathy? If violent psychopaths are a product of nature, as the scientific evidence seems to suggest, we are faced with a real dilemma:

    Do we just wait for the psychopaths to do something nasty as they are often compelled to (you know make a mistake) or do we do something else?

    And as hinted at in a previous post; what implications would this knowledge have on the justice systems in the US and Europe?

    Who would be responsible if knowing what we know (increasingly supported by scientific evidence) such individuals were allowed to carry on acting on their compulsions?

    Because I believe we are all responsible and accountable to the families of victims if we know something and do nothing.

    By the way it turns out that Harris's father had a diary in which he catalogued his son's errant and criminal behaviour. It was a pretty long list apparently....

    Adults taking responsibility; a tough call isn't it?
     
  11. tuberculatious Banned Banned

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    Did the boys get arrested?
     
  12. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Sniffy: Er they used the same affidavit to search Harris's home AFTER the shootings

    Oh come on he had just committed MURDER

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    I don't buy the 'they were white agument' they needed just cause and all you said was provided as evidence is a web site and a violent written 'story'. Hardly grounds for a search warrant. Angry threats on a website dont arent grounds. Do you realize the amount of time that website existed before the crimes? Quite a long time. You know if I get angry with you and say 'I'm going to kill you' you cant haul me down to jail based on that alone. Also the threats were not specific to person in detail, so who was the intended victim to be? How many young people threaten to blow up their school without any muscle behind it?

    Sniffy:You might be a little concerned about a couple of notorious boys who lived a few hundred yards away from the bomb that was discovered, who's own website described the same bomb in detail and who had given death threats to fellow pupils and were openly threatening to do something 'huge' on the anniversary of the oklahoma bombings (in two months time) and was already known to the police....mighten ya?

    Discovered after the fact. There are thousands of websites sniffy suggesting all sorts of mayhem are you concerned for them all? Are they to take them all seriously? Threatening schoolmates is the schools affair to deal with if they thought there was any reason to become involved. Threat like that are made everyday in schools all around the country. I don't buy your conspiracy allegation against the police nor that they were incompetent, they aren't mind readers nor do they have crystal balls.

    Sniffy: They were known criminals.....
    I am suggesting that if you have a catalogue of concerns you investigate.

    No sniffy they were not 'known criminals' they had as yet not committed a crime and held no record. The link only says that these people are born the way they are born as they are hard wired. It doesn't mean they should not spend the rest of their lives in jail if they committ a crime. It also doesn't say you can prevent these types from committing a crime nor does it suggest that intervention can help them from committing a crime, actually it goes on to say that rehabilitation attempts makes them worse.
     
  13. John99 Banned Banned

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    100 years from now and we'll be asking the same questions. the bloke @ 1:53 in the youtube video nailed it down.
     
  14. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    You are still missing the point. Just because personality disorders are biological in nature doesn’t mean that they are not to be held responsible. A psychopath still serves a penalty for committing acts of violence if caught. The documentary doesn’t say that society isn’t ready to deal with the biological roots of the disorder, this has been around for a long time, it says that society isn’t ready to label children with the disorder which makes perfect ethical sense since the state of childhood leaves too much room for development. You do realize that not all psycopaths or personality disordered person goes on to commit a crime or become a killer don’t you? As a matter of fact many psychopaths remain within the law but go on to be sadistic husbands and fathers or go on to be industrial psychopaths who are hell for their underlings as they rise up the corporate ladder.

    What exactly do you expect society to do if they predict a child will grow into psychopathy or personality disorder? They cannot predict crime, they cannot predict murder, they cannot predict HOW it will manifest itself they only know that it is there. If you watch the whole documentary you will find that they expect to have in 10 or 20 years a microchip to change the makeup of the psycopath. And guess what? It still can only be administered to those who display violence. This means you can only utilize this in members of society who commit violence, not on those who you fear may commit violence. It an issue of ethics like in Clockwork Orange. There still, even with what they know, is no way to predict the behaviour of a human being. Predicting psycopathy does not presume to predict a future killer it predicts a set of character traits that may or may not lead to criminality. And what did Hare do with his erratic child? Tie him up in the basement?

    Since this is untreatable, in fact they have discovered that rehabilitation attempts makes them worse, what would you do with a future psycopath in a child?
     
  15. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    They kille themselves.
     
  16. John99 Banned Banned

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    the real question is 'can this nut be cracked?' we are talking about massive alteration to an individuals personality.
     
  17. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    The experts already say NO.
     
  18. tuberculatious Banned Banned

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    Oh, were they bullied or someting?
     
  19. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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  20. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

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    And now I take a moment for a hearty laugh at your stereotyping.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    I can understand the nitpicking of the trenchcoat in high school. Personally, I think it's a cool style, but unfortunately is also a cool way to conceal a shotty. Hence, I can understand the schools forbidding trenchcoats.

    Where you got me is the "people lacking self identity", and "actors". Absolutely priceless. If you don't mind, I'm going to have to bring this quote up among friends sometime!

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  21. sniffy Banned Banned

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    Oh I don't know. I'd probably make darned sure the child can get hold of guns easily; is ignored when he threatens the lives of other children; is not reprimanded in any way for having a sickeningly violent and threatening website; encourage him in making sickeningly violent games and positively encourage him to upload them onto his school website (I particularly like the irony of that, don't you?) encourage him in his bullying of others; make sure he has access to bomb making instructions and materials; you know that sort of thing.....


    You either aren't reading anything I have said about known facts before the shootings at Columbine, which is of course your perogative, or you are deliberately ignoring what has been said. So for the third and last time:

    Both boys had been arrested for breaking and entering a vehicle and stealing from it. They had been reported to the police many times subsequently. The police had devised a security plan for Columbine that would be initiated if ever one student threatened to kill another (AS IS THE LAW IN THE STATE!).

    A student threatening to kill another student is sufficient grounds for investigation and should be followed up according to the state law:

    Death Threats - The Law as it stands in the US
    Under state criminal codes, which vary by state, it is an offense to knowingly utter or convey a threat to cause death or bodily harm to any person. It is also an offense to threaten to burn, destroy or damage property or threaten to kill, poison or injure an animal or bird that belongs to a person.


    This stands for verbal and electronic threats and if you don't believe me try sending a 'death to the President's dog' email from your home computer and see where it lands you.

    I think the law is pretty clear, don't you?

    So:

    Harris and Klebald were reported for making verbal death threats no less than six times and Harris had a website with a list of the people he would like to kill.

    The warrant that was issued was not followed up not because there wasn't sufficient grounds but because the police were incompetant and mislaid the report. This report was later found tucked into a security map in the sheriff's office. Er oops!

    One of the girls at the school supplied those boys with the two main weapons used in the shootings. Several students knew about their plans and expressed their concern as did teachers.

    So Lucysnow what would you have done? I suppose you'd have patted them on the back and given them a jelly bean each for using their imaginations to such great and lasting effect?
     
  22. sniffy Banned Banned

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    Not quite, 'NO':


    Although psychologists don’t call minors “psychopaths”—they are “youths with psychopathic traits”—there is considerable evidence that the condition manifests itself at ages earlier than eighteen; in a much cited 2005 paper, “Evidence for Substantial Genetic Risk for Psychopathy in Seven-Year-Olds,” published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, Essi Viding suggests that the condition can be detected in early childhood. Fledgling psychopaths are particularly interesting to researchers, because their brains are thought to be more malleable than those of adults. In a landmark 2006 study of a specialized talk-therapy treatment program, conducted at a juvenile detention center in Wisconsin, involving a hundred and forty-one young offenders who scored high on the youth version of the checklist, Michael Caldwell, a psychologist at the treatment center and a lecturer at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, reported that the youths that were treated were much more likely to stay out of trouble, once they were paroled, than the ones in the control group. “In other words,” Kiehl told me, “psychopathy is treatable after all, if you can catch it young enough.” Of course, as he pointed out in an e-mail, even with very violent young offenders we have to accept that “the only way to know if the treatment worked or not is to return the youths to the community once they have finished their sentence. . . . Perhaps you put them in a specialized community/monitoring program once they are released again.”

    While Kiehl and his colleagues are looking for a biological marker for psychopathy, molecular biologists have been analyzing DNA, in an attempt to identify a genetic marker. In a recently published study in the British Journal of Psychiatry, Guillermo Ponce and Janet Hoenicka report that two genes that have already been associated with severe alcoholism may also be linked to psychopathy. Efforts are also ongoing in other areas of neurobiological inquiry, including behavioral, neurochemical, pharmacological, and psychophysiological research.


    If a biological basis for psychopathy could be established and pharmacological treatments developed, the idea that many people have at least a little of the psychopath in them could well become accepted. As Kiehl points out, “It used to be the case that it was very hard to meet clinical criteria for depression in the fifties and sixties. However, the definition of depression has been broadened so much with DSM-IV that nearly every person will meet the criteria at some point in their lives. One reason for this is that drug companies have lobbied to change the criteria—because they have a treatment, a drug, that can help people even with moderate levels of depression. It’s a completely different issue whether this is appropriate.” He added that “even moderate levels of psychopathy may someday be considered a disorder—especially if we can treat it.”

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/10/081110fa_fact_seabrook?currentPage=8


    S'pose the best thing to do is stick out heads in the sands and ignore it cos it's just too difficult....
     
  23. sniffy Banned Banned

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    So nothing can be done about such people you think? Isn't 'sadism' a form of violence, in your world, then? What would you do with a sadistic husband or father? :shrug:
     

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