The Messiah Speaks We Obey

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Buffalo Roam, Nov 9, 2008.

  1. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I have found the Dailykos to provide honest and truthful coverage of topics. Something I cannot say the same for on the other end of the political spectrum. And this has been reported by CNN as well.
     
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  5. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    I do not attack FDR because he saved us from Fascism , he was the right Man in the Right Place, and there were some great things that he achieved, it just that he wasn't the absolute savior that liberals like to paint him as.

    He prolonged the problems of the depression to the point that we almost slipped back into a depression, 17.2% unemployment in 1938 wasn't a good thing for the economy, or the Nation.

    With out WWII, we would have been back into the Depression.
     
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  7. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    KOOL AID! KOOl AID! DEATH BY KOOL AID!!!
     
  8. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    LMAO MR. Buffalo Roam

    I must indeed thank you for the humor you bring me each and every day.
     
  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    What, you can't tell the difference?

    Has it occurred to you, sir, to consider what people are taking Bush to task for?

    I addressed this question in response to one of your conservative fellows the other day. See #2086130/47.
     
  10. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Buffalo,

    "I do not attack FDR because he saved us from Fascism , he was the right Man in the Right Place, and there were some great things that he achieved, it just that he wasn't the absolute savior that liberals like to paint him as."

    I'm glad to hear you say that, and as I said before he did make mistakes. In fact his biggest mistakes were to try to grab too much power, of which he realized by being rebuked by members of congress. That was the right thing for them to do.

    "He prolonged the problems of the depression"

    No he didn't. As I stated before there were many reasons why this occured. Do you remember the dust bowls. The unemployment rate was higher than he would have liked but the GDP grew steadily up during the years from 33-39 and even more so during the war, which tells you that the war helped the growth in GDP but you are forgetting it climbed 50% from 33-39 during peacetime. Then another 50% from 40-45. That is success in any measure. The other nations you mentioned that we doing better on umemployment were ? I can think of one, Germany under a totalitarian state. Would that have been better.

    The other matter is the deficit, he kept deficit spending in check against the wishes of many in congress, that should make you happy. The only time he allowed deficit spending to be used was for the war build up and that is a reason if there ever was one. But he wanted something for the investment in earlier years and he got that. Which even to this day we are enjoying the fruits of his wisdom and from the backs of the greatest generation.

    Today, as Wylie said, and warned, we have become a generation of vipers.

    That reason I admire FDR so much is becuase he asked the country to do the hard things to put the country on a better path for the future, he invested in infrastructure the likes of which we have never seen, he offerred hope and never wavered, he brought people together and focused on the populace and not the rich, he put in place many of the needed safeguards to our financial institution so that we did not end up back there again.

    Which unfortunately, have recently been attacked and dismantled by both parties and non-leaders from both parties and now look where we are. So to put blame on FDR for where we are today is absurdity on the highest level. I just don't get it.

    The real problem is we haven't had a leader like him for over 50 years. The people have changed as well, we have come to expect everything and we want it cheap.
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Well said JP
     
  12. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Explain the down ward slide in 1937-38 if his policies were so sucessfull, why did we head for the shitter then? only when we started to produce war material for ourselve and selling them to the allies in mid 1938 did that slide stop.
     
  13. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Buffalo,

    As I said before, there was blame to go around from all sides, but you are claiming it was his policies only and I am claiming that it was much beyond just the approach. He tried to stick to the principle of no deficit spending. It was as much a battle of the very elite and the common man, they were pulling a power play with the masses, it was class warfare from their side.

    They withheld spending money and investing in growth as a means of starving the administration from what it needed, there investment to spur growth. I am not saying there was conspiracy because they couldn't prove that then anymore then we can prove it now. They didn't like the idea of unions (weve seen this again and again) they felt they were a seperate class above the populace and it should stay that way. And look where we have gone in the last 50 years, the rich are many times more wealthy comparatively and the money is in fewer hands than ever, monopolies are on the rise. Do you think this is or ever was good for the populace ? Do you think this is good for competition ?

    Again, he and his administration made some calculated errors, I think and you may agree that he should have worked with the elite money brokers to try to keep them in the mix, find a balance, he may have taken a stance for the poor and middle class to far, in the end, he resorted to some deficit spending but as we know that doesn't work well and it didn't work then.

    But to lay the blame only on him for which others we equal partners in the problem is reaching. At least he tried to convince them that it was in the best interest of the country, they were just greedy and felt they were above and more important.

    But to another point because it is important and I think, I hope you would agree.

    There were many things the administration spent money on that we still enjoy the fruits of today, things that the elite would not have and still will not spend money on without governmental financial support. There are many people who do work, that is not about money or fame or anything of the sort but because they truly care about their fellow americans and the future generations. I make a lot of money, my wife does not, she works in a science field doing great work for very little financial reward, in fact if it were not for me she could not do that work and allow us to live the way we do. There are many people who work for almost nothing helping the poor and the needy. Are they less than you or I ?

    There are many jobs that do not directly add financial value in fact they take away at first but are some of our most important and almost always add indirect long term investment and financial value. What price can be applied to them ?

    37-38 became a philosophical debate between two different views for America, one which FDR lost because the Govt could not replicate what the business community could do for the populace, but his passion for the common man was not failure. Even if the economy took a downturn.

    It is unknown who would have suffered the worst to their image FDR or the Elite money brokers after 38-39 because the war changed the discussion. I think he did everything he could for the long term view of America and as you stated he was the right person in our time of need.
     
  14. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    It was his administration and it was his policies, back and passed by a Democratic Congress, the Presidency was Democrat, the Senate was Democrat, the House was Democrat, in absolute majorities, the Congress passed everything that FDR wanted, His policies, His responsibilities.

    Not like now, since 2006 the Democrats have controlled Congress, and what did they do to prevent this from happening?
     
  15. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Any sweeping economic reform or regulation of the stock market would have been opposed by Bush and vetoed. This economy is wholly on the backs of the Republicans.
     
  16. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Buffalo,

    "It was his administration and it was his policies, back and passed by a Democratic Congress, the Presidency was Democrat, the Senate was Democrat, the House was Democrat, in absolute majorities, the Congress passed everything that FDR wanted, His policies, His responsibilities."

    That is true, but as I explained from your prior question, the elite money brokers some of which were democrats at the time, who didn't like the fact that he was challenging there presumed position and notion of being superior than the common worker were not of the same belief of what America should be as FDR. The difference is they had the power and ability to sit it out because they had the funds to do so. Just like the ones with extra money laying around like me can survive this downturn.

    If the 98% of America that has to go to work every day decided to go on strike against the policies of Bush or Reagan during their terms the shit would have hit the fan like you could never imagine. Why do think the true elites want to keep them living week to week, day to day. Modern day slaves.

    My friend once told me that he will vote democrat until he becomes rich.

    "Not like now, since 2006 the Democrats have controlled Congress, and what did they do to prevent this from happening?"

    LOL. First of all they didn't have enough of a majority to do anything that Bush wouldn't veto.

    Bush II and Reagan have compiled nearly 9 trillion in debt between them with or without the democrats and with very little in return (military build-up with Reagan aside) no other infrastructure, no other long term benefits for the country. Clinton and Bush Sr compiled another 2 between them. Again, I am not saying that the democrats don't have blame to assign, but you want to assign all blame to them and that is not factual.

    In fact the two republican presidents Reagan and Bush II have done far more long term damage to our economy than the rest combined. We will never or may never be able to climb out of their mis-guided hole.

    I don't blame them, I blame us for going along with such short sighted policies and voting them in not just once but twice.

    The very first thing Reagan did was eliminate the tax credit for alternative energy, we were at a pivotal moment and we failed. Look were we are now.

    Do I even need to discuss the failures of Bush II ?

    From FDR "the only thing to fear is fear itself", to "greed is good"

    Wonderfull !
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  17. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Well if the unemployment rate was still 14.3% in 1937, and jumped to 19.0% in 1938, is the depression over?

    No to mention the approximately 7% of the population was employed in the WPA, CCC, and the TVA, government programs, now were exactly was the recovery from the depression?

    FDR's programs did not bring unemployment under control, there were still millions of people unemployed or under employed in government make work programs.

    You liberals are screaming bloody murder over the current unemployment rate of 6.5% and have been preaching disaster, and recession, now how can you defend a 19% unemployment rate from FDR as recovery? and the fact that there were 8,500,000 in government funded work programs, 6.5% of the population in 1937-38.

    So the actual numbers of people unemployed and under employed were still in the 25% range.

    The funny thing is that the more I get into this the more I agree with those who espouse the theory that Roosevelt drove us into the war, because that would be the only way to end the depression.

    We were the the only industrial manufacturing nation, who's industries were not under attack, and would not be because of the 2 great oceans that protected us from serious attack or invasion.

    New Deal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Many different programs were directed at farmers. The first hundred days produced a ... Many people lived in severe poverty, especially in the South. ...

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal - 200k - Similar pages



    About the WPA Life Histories Collection
    During the Great Depression of the 1930s, the federal government, through the WPA, provided jobs to 8500000 unemployed workers. These jobs were primarily ...

    www.lva.lib.va.us/whatwehave/gov/wpalhabout.htm - 21k - Similar pages
     
  18. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Buffalo,

    "You liberals are screaming bloody murder over the current unemployment rate of 6.5% "

    Well here it is. You don't fucking know me from adam, so don't call me a liberal (in the sense that you are implying). There is nothing that I have said that is partisan for partisan sake, I have kept to the facts, you are the one who continues to try and pick a partisan fight with everyone on here. I am a fiscal conservative and a social liberal. I tend to agree with moderate republicans (social) and moderate democrats (fiscal).

    And obviously with the rate of 6.5% but in a recession and a disastrous change in the economy over the last 2-3 years the unemployement rate is not the only factor to determine the health of the economy. And don't you think the world was a different place in the 30's-50's then now ?

    Give me a break.

    "FDR's programs did not bring unemployment under control, there were still millions of people unemployed or under employed in government make work programs."

    I already adressed that. You are blaming him for what he could not change without the help of a business class that chose to engage in class warfare. THAT CHOSE FOR TWO AMERICA'S, RICH AND POOR and he was right to fight against that and fight for the common man.

    "The funny thing is that the more I get into this the more I agree with those who espouse the theory that Roosevelt drove us into the war, because that would be the only way to end the depression."

    Nonsense. He was dealing with a populace that did not want to go to war and he after many talks with Churchill and others was convinced that it was necessary for security reasons not the economy, remember that he went against many years of fhis own fighting against deficit spending which would have been the easy way out in the short term to solve some unemployment issues, which is what other nations did, (and more recent presidents have done) he only did that during the build up for the war.

    By the way this whole thread started with the MESSIAH comment. I don't look at FDR, Obama, Clinton, Reagan, Kennedy or any other single person as the messiah. They never had or will have that type of power. The power is us, we decide which way we go, we ultimately make our own way in our voting choices. That is the beauty of a democracy.
    The fact that he was elected 4 times should tell you on the whole what the American people felt in their hearts about him as a leader.

    With that said, it seems that when times have gotten tough we choose the idea of hope. Lincoln, FDR, Reagan, Obama. This seems to win the day because we have to keep a positive view and plow forward.

    I have seen too much petty bickering and name calling from you with others on this forum. You have outright insulted people you know nothing about. Whether they started it or not, you continued to engage in the nonsense, continue it with me and I will put you on ignore.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  19. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Jp a good arguement requires at least two reasonable beings engaged in a rational discourse. You will not that in any engagement with Mr. Buffalo Roam. Fact and rational thought are alien concepts for him and he quickly reverts to party lines, and name calling. To Mr. Buffalo Roam anything not endorsed 100 percent by Limbaugh or Hannity is liberal. So since you have expressed a thought or opinion different from Limbaugh and Hannity, you are by Mr. Buffalo Roam's defination Liberal. He does not understand gray. In his world, there is conservative (Limbaugh/Hannity) and everything else, and everything else is liberal. So don't waste your time on him, you will never have a rational conversation with him.
     
  20. jpappl Valued Senior Member

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    Joe,

    That would be too bad. The gray is where the truth is usually found.

    I wouldn't consider either Limbaugh or Hannity to be true conservatives. They are just political hacks which there tends to be on both sides. Although the level of hyperbole with those two is extreme.

    It's sad because IMO it cheapens the true positions of good people on both sides which is done with half-truths in an attempt to distort their position.

    That drives me nuts because it works with the uninformed. I saw that many times during the Obama-McCain contest. Both of them were hit with it.
     
  21. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    I absoutely agree with you jpappl!!!

    But Mr. Buffalo Roam has repeatedly shown throughout his many posts that he understands nothing outside of the standard Hannity and Limbaugh fare. And I don't think he understand that either. But he is religiously devoted to it. Anything outside of that very limited area and Bufflao Roam is lost in fearful liberal land.

    It is so very sad and largely why we are where we are today.
     
  22. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Yes joe, I understand nothing, anything your say,

    Your just as bad as those in Islam, You have divided the world in two camps, the Righteous Democrats, Dar el Democratism, and the infidel republicans, Dar el Hang the Republican, and you seem to have adopted the notions of the Rights of the Infidel, right from the Quran and Hadiths, the Righteous Democrat shall never be questioned as to his actions, the righteous Democrat would never Lie Cheat or Steal, and the infidel republican, is a second class dog, doomed to walk the gutter and out of the way of the Righteous Democrat, he has no right, unless he converts to the True Religion of the Democrats, yes joe, what ever you wish to think.

    Democrats are never at fault, seem I have heard something like that from another forum member around here,.....let me think.....Oh yes , SAM, a Muslim is always right and a Infidel is always wrong.

    Really you just give me the biggest....:roflmao:

    Now you and jpappl are singing the praises of FDR, so explain why 19% unemployment just before WWII was a recovery form the Depression, and how having 6.5% of the work force employed in public works projects is a way to get use out of the Depression?

    Seems to me we had the same thing your and pj and jpappl, are bitching about, those that had a job weren't in a depression, those that didn't have a job, or in one of the works projects programs, were still in the depression, and this was the policy of FDR.

    Obama is espousing almost the exact same policies, which means those who don't have a job are shit out of luck, un less they get a works project job from the government, and those people will still be doing only make work jobs for minimum wage.

    ps: That 6.5 % figure was of the total population, I couldn't find a figure for the working population so that percentage is low, more than likely by 2/3.

    That is no recovery.
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Your post speaks quite clearly and just reenforces everything I just said. Thanks. I am not going to continue to reargue the same old stuff endlessly. Because it just goes right over your head.
     

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