Star Wars vs Star Trek

Yarr, more from Ent-D

 

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Dhusk, from page 13

 

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Proof in the pudding of Treks superiority!

 

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Rawr, I should probably get back to work now XD

 

you are not doing the thread any favors by causng so much information noise. if i was to answer all that at once the following reader would have a hard time tracking all the topics. not to mention some of those posts (or parts of posts) have become apsolite by now.

 

LOL Jeez, my old arguments....I think those were before all of this canon business set in. Captain Picard did not have a Section 31 encounter in the show. Sisko and folks did however; most memorably through Odo...who was "virussed" so that the UFP would have ultimately won the Dominion war.

(Bashir was a meddler lol)

 

antaran, the idea wasn't to provide info - it was to hammer the final nail in Star Wars coffin.

 

With all due respect that has already happened. The encyclopedia you guys set up.
It is so over. I 'm satisfied as long as Scott doesn't attempt to tackle the math...that means it's good and...even better...it's canon.

 

Interestng thread. I've been a fan of both series for a while so this is pretty cool. For clarification's sake, anything I use as a source is either (at least) S-Canon for Star Wars or (at least) licensed non-canon for Star Trek. And I believe very strongly that everything, whether knowingly or unknowingly, conforms to Newton's Laws of Physics, even God and Q.

Well, my thoughts....

While Q is incredibly (almost godlike) powerful, he is bound is in someway, shape or form bound by Newton's Laws. That being said, even though it is never shown, for every action he (or his species) take(s), there has to be an opposite and equal reaction somewhere in the Universe. We just don't get to see those reactions. Also, there are several SW characters who possess the same nearly the same abilities.
- Jacen Solo (in The Unifiying Force) rewrote reality to destroy Onimi. The reaction by the Universe: Jacen Solo ages five years and goes insane.
- Darth Plagueis (from Revenge of the Sith) was said to be able to create and sustain life beyond natural means through the influencing of midi-chlorians. The outcome: the birth of Anakin Solo and we all know how that ended... Plus Sidious kills Plagueis.
- Cade Skywalker - uses the Force to bring Wolf Sazen back to life. His life goes down the tubes afterwards.
- Bastilla Shan - uses the Force to bring Darth Revan back to life. Revan then nearly kills her.
- Vergere - like her apprentice (Jacen Solo), Vergere could disassemble and rebuild reality on a molecular level. Everything evens out though because Vergere dies to save the life of her apprentice, Jacen Solo (a.k.a. Darth Caedus).
- Darth Sidious - wrote the Dark Side Compendium, which (among other things) taught how to create monsters, how to live beyond death, and how to create nasty things called Force Storms (giant wormholes capable of destorying entire fleets, planets, stars, etc). Sidious dies shortly afterward by one of his own storms and his soul is dragged into Hell by Empatojayos Brand (a Jedi).
- Galen Marek - the protagonist from The Force Unleashed (G-canon, by the way!). Have you seen what he can do? Immense power, can move starships, and gets killed by thousands of amps of Force Ligthning.

So, all of this was to say, while Q is mighty, I don't think he can just say "you don't exist anymore" without repercussions. Somewhere, somehow, screwing with reality has an equal and opposite effect. And even if Q eliminate all of ST oppossitiong, there are those from the SW universe who could do the same thing.

 

It doesn't matter if there are repercussions, canon shows no unmanageable effects of the Q Continuums abilities, when they interfere with lesser beings.

Further, the "equal and opposite reaction" law deals with laws of physical motion. If Q simply instantaneously removes a Warsie fleet from the ST Universe, (1) how do Newtonian rules of physical motion apply? and (2) if you argue that instantaneous transport is a form of physical motion, the opposite reaction of their disappearance in the ST Universe should be the fleet's reappearance in the SW Universe - or wherever Q sends them.

Even more, how do you apply Newtonian physics to the emotional reaction of a reanimated dead Darth?

All you've done is show that the Jedi and Sith can't withstand their own power

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Further, the "equal and opposite reaction" law deals with laws of physical motion. If Q simply instantaneously removes a Warsie fleet from the ST Universe, (1) how do Newtonian rules of physical motion apply? and (2) if you argue that instantaneous transport is a form of physical motion, the opposite reaction of their disappearance in the ST Universe should be the fleet's reappearance in the SW Universe - or wherever Q sends them.

Supposition #two is correct; they would have to appear somewhere else. #1 is not so correct. One (even someone like Q) cannot simply "remove" something from the universe. It violates Newton's 3rd law (opposite and equal reaction). It also violates the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy. You cannot simply create or destroy matter. No matter how hard anyone (even Q, who is as near godlike as you can apparently get) tries, removing matter and energy from the Universe. It has to go somewhere. You can move matter or rearrange matter on the subatomic level, but matter is neither created nor destroyed. Likewise, the amount of energy needed to rearrange subatomic particles would be enormous. Removing a fleet to another portion of the Universe instantaneously is possible, provided one has the energy to do it.

 

Even more, how do you apply Newtonian physics to the emotional reaction of a reanimated dead Darth?

Again, Newton's 3rd law, though applied to things other than motion. For every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction, especially in the Star Wars Universe. The Universe exists in balance, a harmony of darkness and light. When the scales tip to far to one side, you get things like Darth Sidious' Force Storms and numerous Jedi/Sith bringing people back from the dead. They are "unnatural" things to do and they have pretty dire consequences. Prolonging one's life (or another's) when that person is supposed to die unbalances the scales (think Final Destination). It simply unbalances everything.

Think of politics in the Star Trek galaxy. If, for the sake of argument, the UFP decides it wants to expand into the Neutral Zone because they discover a new element that UFP desperately needs, what is to stop the Romulans from fighting back? Similarly, say the Borg invade the Klingon empire with everything they have got (an invasion fleet, not a single cube). If the UFP and the Romulans refuse to help the Klingons, for whatever reason, and the latter group is assimilated, the opposite and equal reaction would be that when the Borg decide to invade the Romulan Empire or the UFP, they would not have the needed strength to repulse them.

 

All you've done is show that the Jedi and Sith can't withstand their own power.

Yet, Q said humans can one day be like the Q. Could it be possible that if the Q met the Jedi or the Sith, they might side with them if an all out war broke out between Trek and Wars? I mean, after all, telepathy, telekinisis, etc would definately be a step up the evolutionary ladder. And, what if the Q like the people of the SW universe better than those of the ST universe?

 

It doesn't matter if there are repercussions, canon shows no unmanageable effects of the Q Continuums abilities, when they interfere with lesser beings.

But there are side effects when they mess about with the other members of the Q Continuum. What about the civil war that broke out in VOY? That would make it seem that they too are bound on some level by the Laws of Physics.

Maybe they can't really control their own power as much as they believe...

 

Laws of conservation = correct; so Q can either move the fleet, or reduce them to the equivalent mass of ashes. Take your pick.

Newton's laws applies only to physical motion. There is no governing laws of physics that predict emotional reactions. Or warfare. This is treading the realm of psychology.

No, Q merely said they are interested in the development of humans. In the ST Universe. Further, there is no canon reason to suppose that additional telepathy is the measuring stick that the Q Continuum judges humans by. After all with all the Force powers, what do the Sith go and do? Destroy each other with it.

Indeed Q was very disdainful of what he termed as the barbarous history of humanity. The Continuum would likely favour Jedi/Sith even less.

My point stands here...the Q Continuum can interfere with lesser beings with zero effects, outside of the psychological ramifications to the lesser beings themselves.

 

RC773, you are missing something:

The Q can CHANGE the laws of physics... they have, multiple times.

Examples?

Well, for one - he flung the Ent-D at unimaginable speed into the Delta Quadrent to initiate contact with the borg WITHOUT the ship imploding from the stress forces.

Second, he can CHANGE THE GRAVITATIONAL CONSTANT OF THE UNIVERSE.

Third, and finally, there were no repurcussions in the series, so you cannot simply "imagine" them up mate, Sorry... cannon doesn't work like that.

 

RC773, if you want to bring the laws of physics, quantum physics, thermodynamics, and other such things into play, be prepared for the can of worms that would open...

Using such laws, most force powers would become useless... for every action you perform (force stopping an ISD ala Yoda), an equal and opposite reaction would be put upon your body (squish).

You go to lift a storm trooper via the force - good job, now that storm troopers weight is bearing down... ON YOUR BRAIN.

 

not from a multiverse point of view. energy and matter could flow in and out the sub-systems but the macro-system would still be in balance. like blowing a baloon.

 

Listen...RC773, Newtonian laws of physical motion cannot apply as you have used them. Emotion, ambition, relative judgement of morality are not predictable, and indeed do not ever have equal or necessarily opposing reactions. Indeed, in fictions, the "good" side generally wins hands down.

Perhaps a more reasonable line of theory to explore is Chaos Theory; however this might be moot as Kitt has pointed out...the Q Continuum beings have the ability to alter certain constants.

 

All welcome Barack Obama, the 44th president of the US of A