The Thing about UFOs...

jpappl,

You are truly a breath of fresh air with respect to "average" or "common place" skepticism. Your skepticism is not steeped in sarcasm and belittling emotional pseudo comedic tones, which admittedly, I have grown exceedingly tired of.

I beg your patience to contemplate the following, POSSIBLE misappropriation of analogy:

I like your example about the man & the bear. In review:

The problem with your analogy is in the form of evidence you use to exemplify the effectiveness, in absolute terms, regarding the expert witness.

Let me explain please.

The bear in typical form must be removed from the attack oriented analogy equation because the bear represents an animate form of reality (ET). The expert witness in the case for UFOs is not examining ET or something animate, they, the expert witness, are examining a technological format apart from any form of life. They are not deducing the origin of the UFO either, they are strictly accessing by means of factual expert deduction what the technology is NOT. Therefore we must rearrange your analogy to fit the real context of the applied expert witness by allowing the bear to represent that which is inanimate.

We can still use the bear, but we must put the bear in context. This context (atmosphere/space) as an imaginary environment that is only occupied by ONE SINGLE form of technology as represented by the bear. That of mankind. So in fact, the bear is a monotypic species whose space/atmosphere bound populous consists of many different morphs, but only ONE origin of specie. So the victim in our analogy MUST be killed by a bear, or....????

Enter the expert:

Since we know in our present reality that only one earth bound species (mankind) has progressed to the point where his level of technological understanding has acquired him the ability to artificially navigate the realm of atmosphere/space, the bear in this analogized equation represents this monotypic origin of technology.

Men that are fully, and at the highest level of human understanding, trained in the recognition, design, navigation and all manner of scientifically monitored instrumentation of the bear, are called experts. When these men accompany and operate the bear in it's native environment, they must also be critically schooled in accurate perception within the bear's actuated atmosphere/space bound environment. When said expert deduces via his/her level of expertise, that what they themselves are witnessing is not in fact a bear, we are forced to arrive at the conclusion that there is more than one form of scientifically recognized technology/bear. This is called a paradigm shift.

Such a shift has occurred, whether recognized by skeptics as real or not, it has occurred nonetheless.

Now what this means, as I originally attempted to explain to SkinWalker, and subsequently lost patience doing so (my fault), is that there is in fact now two legitimate forms of recognized technology. One of human/bear origin and one that is not.

This does not mean that the origin of this technology is specifically ET. To go down that path is no less speculative than to purposed the hypothesis that possible via our own evolution as a species, we are just starting to recognize and perceive a different form of intelligence that originates right here on Earth. So you see, ET is NOT the only plausible explanation for that which is responsible in origin for what is seen in countless UFO sightings apart from mankind.

The theories for what are multi dimensional realities far and away exceeding the 4 basic dimensions we presently take for granted are STRONG. Very strong.

I will leave you with this my respected friend:

Who's to say or not, that on this earth that we live, intelligence as we understand it may in fact be an artifact of the human evolutionary process rather than a pentacle result. What if the human intellect itself is an environmental bonding agent for our present placement within this dimensional format? Maybe the intellect within mankind is no different than the facilitation for what was once aquatic life that evolved into more advanced land fairing life forms.

Just speculation, but worthy of consideration nonetheless.

You see, this may in fact not be a consideration for what is physical distance, but rather what is the state of humankind's present environmental adaptability and subsequent understanding.

 

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Electra,

So if I understand your premise and forgive me if I am missing something here.

The ET in your analogy is not something that we can place in the same type of tangible state as the bear. Therefore the same principles that apply to proving the bear can not be used to apply to the ET.

I can accept that line of thinking if the ufos/ET or other are coming from a different dimension, either coming and going as they please or coming and going by accident or there all the time but we just don't see them due to our level of conciousness.

This is where the problem may lie for us in understanding and proving the phenomenon as you describe it.

Ultimately for me it gets back to what we know now. Not what could be or might be.

That is why I believe a tangible, animate object is still appropriate to the conversation and subsequent analogies. Simply because that is all we know. Or should I say all I know.

I look at the ufo/ET subject as one that we can prove with evidence, I just don't feel there is enough to go to court yet.

You, as I understand it. Believe that the ufo/ET subject requires a line of thinking that is beyond our approach thus far.

I don't want to speak for you but if that is your belief I can respect it and will consider it. I certainly can't claim that is not a possibility. We do have a lot to learn.

By the way did you see this clip. Could be a hoax of course and I have many reasons I believe it is, but it's interesting.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/comments/0,22023,24535836-663,00.html

Watch from about 7:00 on. Clearer picture of the craft.
Then watch what happens around 8:25 on, they get a much better image, looks like a old truck fender but then it starts changing colors and you can better see the outline of the craft which is saucer shaped and metallic. Very interesting indeed.

Good luck to us both.

 

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jpappl
Thank you so much for your communications and considerations. It's great to have what I post actually considered rather than predictably ridiculed.

The "direction" or "orientation" of my beliefs concerning UFOs is fairly straight forward. I contend that there most assuredly is a form of unfamiliar and highly unusual technology that is observed by many persons each year. "Many", in this case translates to large numbers of credible people from all walks of life. A tiny, but nonetheless very real minority of these sightings are observed, some extremely up close, by real experts. Not just "pilots". Not just "astronauts", engineers, technicians, etc., but rather the cream of the crop so to speak. Those that are worthy of being considered absolute authorities in their specific fields of practice. It is these people that I chose to align my beliefs with. They say what they have observed carefully were not of human origin. I believe they are in of themselves authorities enough to justify my personal convictions with respect to critical acceptance of their insight. I am certain that some of my leanings resulted from my own experience. I cannot help that, nor would I contend that I am strictly unbiased in the matter as a result of said experience.

I have seen the video you posted and it is excellent. (IMO) It's truthfully not as good as some of the space footage I have seen that was presented within the Robert O. Dean UFO Insiders series, but it's some of the best new footage I have seen in a good while.

jpappl, I want you to know, that I know of not one single serious UFO researcher that just believes all the crap out there because they take a fancy to it. One will find so much GARBAGE scattered among the quality information that I have found that if it smacks of conspiratorial entertainment, it most likely is just that. All the Bob Lazars and John Lears out there have really made a mess of things with their fraudulent claims as entertainment rather than providing real objective research. But it is because of people like these, some I have first learned about right here on this forum, and others exposed in great web sites like http://www.ufowatchdog.com/ that keep me and many others on the alert for sheer fraud and ridiculousness.

One area that I am mind blown over is zero point energy. Lots of respectable science going on in that highly esoteric field of endeavor for certain.

It's also my belief that great scientific discoveries and subsequent technologies have been smothered by big business and it's influence over what has become the corrupted mainstream empirical science community. The honest and integrity driven race for human scientific invention and subsequently applied knowledge has been regulated by those first to the finish line for at very least the last 50, if not, 100 years IMO.

Thanks Again!

 

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Electra,

"The "direction" or "orientation" of my beliefs concerning UFOs is fairly straight forward. I contend that there most assuredly is a form of unfamiliar and highly unusual technology that is observed by many persons each year"

"I am certain that some of my leanings resulted from my own experience. I cannot help that, nor would I contend that I am strictly unbiased in the matter as a result of said experience."

Which is understandable.

I agree there is a lot of nonsense that you have to wade through. It's like the fans behind the basket as someone tries to shoot a free throw. It's hard to see the basket with all the hand waving going on.

"It's also my belief that great scientific discoveries and subsequent technologies have been smothered by big business and it's influence over what has become the corrupted mainstream empirical science community. The honest and integrity driven race for human scientific invention and subsequently applied knowledge has been regulated by those first to the finish line for at very least the last 50, if not, 100 years IMO."

I can agree with this.

There are many hurdles to solving this issue that are not solely laid on the science community. Too often what they do is driven by what big business and Govt wants, they are typically funded by these sources so are beholden to them to some degree.

You are suggesting as well that there is an alternate level of technological achievement that is unknown to the common people, that which military black projects for example could have produced. Because they would not be beholden to produce items to sell in the marketplace and essentially have a blank check to create what they can achieve and not only what is being required. Then that would make sense.

It's hard to keep secrets, I feel eventually it will come out.

We will see what happens.

Take care and thank you.

 

How can you be certain the USA and Britain are covering it up, when 'Project Blue Book', and the UK effort have been made available?

How could the UK and USA cover up what is being potentially disclosed by other nations? Surely, if the Soviet Union knew the truth about UFOs, it would have been a great Public Relations coup during the Cold War, to let the American populace know their govt was concealing things from them? That would be excellent propaganda!

If all world govts aren't agreeing on covering up UFOs, why isn't one sharing the information?

Also, if as stated, the UFO phenomenon has been happening for thousands of years, it would be common knowledge, and there would be nothing that could be covered up. Governments cannot stop folklore.

I'd love for ET's to be visiting, or communicating, but the evidence just isn't there. Oh, and on 'mind zapping' well, that is a reported phenomena, possibly thanks to MIB, but the descriptions of aliens often follow fiction too. Why is that?

 

These are good questions. I will attempt to answer them to the best of my understanding. I will answer them in paragraph sequences in the order the questions were asked.


This is two part in terms of an answer. The basic question was: how can we be sure the government is "covering up" the UFO reality? The answer is beyond straight forward. All documents pertaining to UFO insight are classified as "Top Secret". The agencies that are in the "know" have to cover them up. That's their job. We know this because many of the documents that have been partially blacked out and then released by the U.S. government via the FOIA. These documents have been authenticated.

The second part to the question concerns "Blue Book". Blue Book was intentionally used as a source of disinformation by agencies within the U.S. intelligence dept.s apart from the military. The initial study was one forwarded by legitimate concerns within the high ranking USAF chain of command. It was quickly downsized and manipulated by existing covert intelligence communities. It was a pacifier for the then very nervous outspoken public in an effort to quell fears that arose from mass communicated UFO flaps that were happening at the time. For instance, the Washington DC UFO sightings that by no coincidence also happened in 1952.

For a MUCH clearer understanding, look into Project Sign & Project Grudge which both proceeded Blue Book. It's important, as in VERY important, to understand and fully comprehend that the USAF's official position on UFOs was reached after studies that concluded around 1947-48. Those in charge concluded that UFOs were very real and were specifically craft not made by the USA or the Russians and were most likely of ET origin. Blue Book was used to muddy these clear and settled waters.

Sorry for the long answer above but it is the truth and I felt it appropriate.

The second question deals with again a two part frame of reference. Since the first apart is again basically repeated in a later question, I will address only the second part which deals with propaganda. It's VERY simple. The cold war was just that. It was all about convincing the other side of the former side's superiority via information manipulation. Both sides were playing it cool/cold because they both wanted the other to think that UFOs were their baby and that this technology demonstrated vast superiority over the other. This was a direct result of the race for space between the two that each was deeply engaged in. High level aeronautics were a source for constant speculation and espionage. To admit by means of either country that the enemy had knowledge of anything superior would in fact be the claimants undoing.

The third question is short and sweet and deals with a sort of conspiracy. The answer is that even within the U.S., British and Russian governments, UFOs have NEVER been made common knowledge to high level public officials. Governments are like corporations in that one hand rarely knows what the other is doing. However, the truth remains that there have been many admissions by all these governments about the reality of UFOs. Especially Britain and Russia. Look into Rendlesham forest for some exceptionally bizarre UFO/UO activity in the air and on the ground.

the fourth question deals with UFOs over the ages (thousands of years). To this I would beg the indulgence of your imagination in considering just how "outside the cave's entrance" we really are as a civilization (worldwide) I would also challenge you in the healthiest sense to look into the works of Jacques Vallée. The truth is that UFOs are deeply embedded within the world's folklore across many cultural boundaries. Abductions/sightings that are identical to reports made to this very day have been reported for many, many, hundreds of years.

The fifth issue is more of statement of disbelief based on a lack of research. I am not condemning you, nor am I contending "absolutes" based on my own findings. I will say this concerning "alien behavior following fiction" however.

If science has shown us one important common thread in detail, it's the unwavering finding that "truth is most assuredly stranger than fiction"

could it be that possibly you have "it" backward?

 

You may have seen the new report of another Stephenville sighting that was almost identical to the one in Jan 08. Large craft seen by many witnesses, F16's flying in the area after it left, seen by witnesses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d72tiipQoXI&feature=related

This time there is a better video but it is as usual, is not defined enough. Of course stupid CNN keeps cutting the shots of the craft to just a few seconds.

It doesn't appear to be possible to be flares because off to the left in a stable position along with the red lights is a blue light. All stay together so it is a craft or something solid enough to hold these lights in position.

Pause it at 1:49 and there is a good shot of the blue light in position with the others.

But whose is it ? What is it ?

Why on earth would the military go back there with an experimental craft unless they want to get the word out. I just doesn't make sense. Why would they fly over or near populated areas with something they want to keep secret. So either they don't care if we know or it's not theirs.

So what is going on ? MUFON I am sure, since they were succesful getting the radar data from the FAA last time, will do so again. Maybe there will be better radar information that does not require the kind of leaps they made in the report from the Jan 08 data.

It will have to be good because the video isn't conclusive enough. Maybe it can be enhanced to provide better detail.

 

Well,
The thing about UFOs is that you need to build your own!! that way you do not have to just talk about them and if you want to show people who do not believe you can.

So I will help to start you guys out, the internal lining of your space craft should be SiO4. this is because the human body absorbs and transmitts enegry frequency from SiO4 in large amounts.

Just imagine that, living in a Glass house.

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DwayneD.L.Rabon

 

Just more garbage from the garbage man.

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do u guys really not get it. If it were military than why the hell would they tell us? No one out there will develop anti stealth detectors if they don't know there is such a thing. That is why the B-2 was secret for so long. So you know what when it comes between ur curiosity and someone's life i couldnt give a crap about ur curiosity. ull find out in 20 years or something.

 

jpappl
Thanks for this. I group the Stephenville UFO sightings in with a recent flap that is also being widely and commonly reported in the UK. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention because I had previously been mistaken about the basic appearance of the Stephenville UFO. One can come in contact (no pun intended) with so much information in doing UFO research that it's easy to cross cases. I was thinking that the Stephenville UFO was one of the triangle sightings and it's clearly not.

I would like to bring to your attention, and everyone else's attention, a most AMAZING DVD documentary that I started reviewing last night. This is hands down the best documentary I have ever seen on the UFO phenomenon. It does NOT deal with quacks, conspiracies or first hand eyewitness accounts. It is completely scientific, albeit speculative in nature, it is VERY well researched and presented in a scientific format. It is by a man that I am specifically thankful to momentum7 (a member here) for introducing me to. His name is David Sereda.

David formulates some of the most profound and carefully researched theories concerning NASA space shuttle films from the 90s I have ever come across. These have always been the films that I thought provided the best filmed evidence for UFOs. To give you an idea of the weight of his research and communications within the scientific community, David shares intense and specific correspondence with Dr. Joseph Nuth III. Head, Astrochemistry Branch Laboratory for Extraterrestrial Physics, Goddard Space Flight Center, NASA.

This is TRULY a stunning piece of research and in fact is just down right fascinating viewing/learning. The title of this excellent presentation that includes carefully scrutinized and calculated NASA film footage from the space shuttle is called: Evidence - The Case of NASA UFOs

I highly recommend it and it's available through Netflix.

All I can say is that Read-Only, your day is come. LOL!

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Truthfully, I think everyone needs to see this and will find it enjoyable.

 

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DwayneD.L.Rabon

 

Don't even bother with it, Rabon - unless you can show some solid proof for your stupid statement: "So I will help to start you guys out, the internal lining of your space craft should be SiO4. this is because the human body absorbs and transmitts enegry frequency from SiO4 in large amounts."

Which you cannot possibly do! So just throw it in the trash can where it belongs!!!:bugeye:

 

w00t

 

Really Read-only given your constant onslaught of insults you could just remain ignorant as far as I am concerned. You see I have a interest in flight and different means of flight, and am flight capable. You on the other hand have a interest in banging your head on the table and your computer and are with out capability. So you will remain dependant on some one else to deliver you to any one given point in your life.

DwayneD.L.Rabon

 

how about vertical landing and take-off capable?

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Fedr808,

"do u guys really not get it. If it were military than why the hell would they tell us? No one out there will develop anti stealth detectors if they don't know there is such a thing. That is why the B-2 was secret for so long. So you know what when it comes between ur curiosity and someone's life i couldnt give a crap about ur curiosity. ull find out in 20 years or something."

Well that is my question. Considering what information they may be releasing to the world about what we possess, why would they fly this thing (assuming that it is something real ) over populated areas.

So either they don't care if we know or it is not ours or there is yet another explanation.

But I wonder why you feel it is our responsibility to keep this quiet when you consider the alternative ie ET. If the military is flying this thing over populated areas, they are being fools to think that witnessess wouldn't expose it becuase they don't know what it is, and to them it is out of this world.

It is the military's fault for revealing it this way.

I am all for having the upper hand on potential enemies, but that is the responsiblity of the military to conceal something that they don't want exposed.

 

Dude, the answer is freaking simple. The fact is that stealth bombers were mant to infultrate populated areas. So why not just conduct a flyboy of a populated area to test it. I mean yes you can test it over a desert but that doesn't matter because you would not be bombing sand dunes.


Once more are you vertical take off and landing capable

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Fedr808,

"The fact is that stealth bombers were mant to infultrate populated areas. So why not just conduct a flyboy of a populated area to test it. I mean yes you can test it over a desert but that doesn't matter because you would not be bombing sand dunes."

Stealth bomber with a bunch of lights on it. So everyone can see it.

No it's not that simple. You might want to look into the actual event before you make any assumptions, if you have then what are you missing ?

On top of that, in both events there were f16s all over the place.

That is not trying to be stealthy.

If your point is that they went in to be seen then it gets back to why.

If they went in both times to try a slip in, slip out with nobody spotting them, then they failed misreably both times.

So which is it ?

 

jpappl
It's honestly pretty meaningless as to the "why?" deciding the "what". I am not trying to be dismissive or contrary with respect for your curiosity. It's just that the point is "something" is happening. It would most likely be a great deal more meaningful to study and capitulate world wide sighting of the same nature.


It's fairly obvious that Fedr808 is doing his best to keep both oars in the water here so to speak. He/She "knows" what cannot be known. ANYTIME you have a run in with that type mentality or pseudo resolve, if you decide to proceed forward, be prepared to do some serious wheel spinning. You're going nowhere fast.

This is what I have managed to somewhat conclude in the last few months:

If you look at the UFO phenomenon, as of the last 20 years, you begin to observe familiarity, and more exactly, similarity in sighted events. This being in respect to UFO appearance and aerial behavior.

One also finds themselves pondering questions concerning events, and the frequency of those events, happening in moderately and densely populated areas.

This may in fact be nothing more than the development and expansion of civilizations around the globe. When you mix in peak levels of mass communication and exposure, even the issues of frequency get blurred.

When one examines these observed characteristics, one can arrive at various hypothetical conclusions.

For instance: If triangle shaped UFOs with extremely similar appearances appear in 5-10 different countries over a period of 10-20 years, it's fairly reasonable, although by no means certain, that this form of UFO is not exclusive to any particular country's advanced research, design and testing facilities. That's why the military in all such developed countries have "no fly" policies with respect to other countries experimental and military aircraft. Naturally there are aircraft that fly too high to mandate a strict adherence to all such policy, but these craft we are discussing are appearing frequently at exceptionally low altitudes.

So with the above observed scenario in mind, one can come to their own conclusions. There really cannot be a right one. Only speculation until the truth is officially made known.

I will say that the most revealing thing about drawing similarity based hypothetical conclusions, is the fact that these observations are far more global in nature than they are exclusive to any one particular geographic area.

I will also contend that it would be exemplary of somewhat paranoid cowardice of a fantastically derived proportion, to feel, or react, as though there is something within this phenomenon that demonstrates a "threat" to mankind.

Taken at a surface level glance, with respect to our known cutting edge military capabilities:

If anything, it would hypothetically suggest a level of technology that is beyond any such need to exert dominance as compared to what we have to retaliate with.