Capitalism Doesn't Work... So What Would?

First of all, in reference to the newlyweds starting out and needing to use credit... exactly my point. And that's the problem with this system, don't you see? The system is set up so that people have to borrow money, get in debt, and struggle to get out of debt. I believe that people starting out should not have to struggle. Much in the same way that a newborn baby should not have to struggle to survive after it's born and is rightfully cared for by the parents. Can't you see that same sort of humanitarian concept being applied towards the citizen-government relationship(or more precisely, when applied to my own idea of a better system, an individual-community relationship)?

And as far as the government making us fat, dumb, and unhealthy... I'm talking about the population as a whole; not every individual would apply.
Here are a few examples of how our government makes us fat, dumb, and unhealthy:
Our healthcare system is in the business of denying coverage to the sick.
The FDA knowingly allows toxic chemicals to be put into our food and water. These chemicals can do everything from make us fat, give us cancer, brain tumors, anxiety disorders, insomnia, decreased mental capacity, etc.
The government gives us misleading and false information to keep us in the dark, and distract us from the truth- and this makes us ignorant.
The government keeps most of us too busy working to stay alive, keeping us from more self-constructive things like learning,creating, and loving life- this makes us hopeless and ignorant.

I summarized my idea towards the beginning of this thread about this new system that I propose.

 

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What chemicals?

If referring to Chlorine or Fluorine they both have enormous benefits. Fluorine occurs naturally in the water in many areas. I lived in one until about age 1 year. I got so much deposited in my bones and teeth that even years later when adult teeth were forming I have to this day two "bone white" spots on the tips of my top front teeth (and never had a cavity!) - A huge over dose of Fluorine, naturally delivered by the water of Arkansas caused that. My teeth are a little too hard and a few have chipped, but I still eat the softer end of chicken bones and crack them open for the marrow inside, as my ancient ancestors did. – I figure they have the Calcium Iron and all other minerals I need in just the correct proportions for making bones strong.

In fact that is how the beneficial effects of Fluorine were discovered. Not by medical research as you might guess - good old capitalistic greed made the discovery. The American Dental Association had information of the number of dentists per capital and that part of Arkansas had very low number. New dentists went there, open their office, and when bankrupt in a couple of years. Finally the American Dental Association decided to find out why. That is how the great good with zero risk tiny amounts of Fluorine in the drinking water was discovered. As a baby I regularly had dozens of times higher concentration in my water and formulas milk. I am very rarely ever sick - much better shape than many half my age. In last 16 years, only once have I needed any medical help - a systemic infection that needed an anti-biotic. I cannot remember ever getting one before. I take only vitamin pills.

Again what chemicals are you speaking of?

 

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Dan, here are each of your claims. Please provide evidence for each:

Claim 1) free market capitalism cannot be improved upon in this world in terms of prosperity for the most amount of people as well as individual freedom.

Claim 2) No amount of communism will every work, it is evil, plain and simple.

Claim 3) Unregulated capitalism isn't the problem. This mortgage crisis occurred Because of regulation.

Claim 4) No bank in their right mind would write bad loans in a purely capitalistic society because negative consequences would follow.

Claim 5) Our friend Barak, Dodd and Barney are responsible for this crisis because they pushed socialistic UN beliefs on America. "Everyone has a right to own a home". "Everyone has a right to free health care".

 

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Your first sentence commits the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem.

Your second and third sentences commit, twice respectively, the fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Your fourth sentence sets up a straw man.

Are you capable of being lucid and logical on any question?

 

By using the word 'magically', you imply that there is no alternative. By implying that there is no alternative, you have made a claim. Indeed, it is a claim which argues from personal incredulity, and is therefore an argumentative fallacy.

 

Yunus repeatedly contradicts himself. He sounds like a Christian on the edge of losing his belief, due to the sheer overwhelming evidence against it, but can't bear to take the final plunge into apostasy.

 

The Constitution does not specify a market system. Its raison d'etre is clearly outlined in the Preamble:

'We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.'

Single-payer healthcare may not have been envisioned (or perhaps it was), but neither was the space program, Abram tanks, aircraft carriers, interstate highways, a Presidential cabinet, slave emancipation, woman suffrage, or a factional duopoly over political viability.

The Chinese example was proposed to show that the material gains under a command economy can outstrip those of neo-liberal capitalism. I am not sure whether this is so in China's case, though the relative superiority of a command economy (or any other extant system) is not a prerequisite for condemning capitalism as a failure; it is possible for all of the students in a class to fail. Also, even if the China case turns out to be true, its political repression would not be relevant in the equation. One does not imply the other, anymore than capitalism implies separation of church and state (cf: British Empire, Czarist Russia, etc).

 

Msg, aspartame, pesticides, fluoride - just a few examples of chemicals in our food/water that the FDA says is safe despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary.

Check this link out: http://www.fluoridealert.org/50-reasons.htm

And for the conspiracists: http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/fluoride.htm

 

You obviously did not read my post telling that I had dozens of times higher concentrationa than FDA allows of floride in my water naturally with only beneficial effects. (no cavitys, hard teeth and bones). I will just put you down as one of the anti-fluoride nuts.

I did go to your link. It is not all false. Point 1 is true. Fluorine in not essential, only beneficial.

There are minute amounts of most things in the water we drink (and always have been - why humans have livers to remove toxic things) For example, in the typical 8 oz glass of water, it is probable that there is a little bit of the last piss Ceasar made.

 

Thanks.

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"Claim 1) free market capitalism cannot be improved upon in this world in terms of prosperity for the most amount of people as well as individual freedom."

Are you doubting that America has brought the most prosperity and individual freedom to the greatest amount of people in history? What is there that has not been tried? Communism/socialism has failed. Kingdoms lack checks and balances that protect freedoms. Sure, my statement is one of belief, but it is a reasonable one in light of history. Note that the original poster didn't posit a new theory of government, but rather a hybrid of what is already there. American is aready a hybrid, combining the best virtues of a kingdom (president) with the best virtues of a democracy and the protections of a representative republic. If you can come up with a better one, do so, somewhere else. We will be watching. Leave the worlds first constitutional republic alone.

Claim 2) No amount of communism will every work, it is evil, plain and simple.

Communism has failed where ever it has been tried, to accomplish it's stated goals. Yeah, everyone in the former USSR was equal, but they were equally poor and enslaved. Same for North Korea, Cuba etc.. This is why communists build walls, it is to keep their people in.

Claim 3) Unregulated capitalism isn't the problem. This mortgage crisis occurred Because of regulation.

well established fact. The government owed a large portion of freddy and fanny. This lowered the managers fear of risk. In addition, they were encouraged to lend money to high risk folks and managers were compensated by the quotas which were set.

I am a principle in a financial services company. When we had no risk (sales person), I wrote up everything I could. When I had 50% risk (owner), I pushed the limits a little less. Now I have full risk, and I scrutinize the credit of every applicant, and put reasonable restrictions on those where are boarderline. I understand business and how it works, because I live in the real world of free enterprise.

"Claim 4) No bank in their right mind would write bad loans in a purely capitalistic society because negative consequences would follow."

answered above. In pure capitalism consequences follow poor decision making. My company has taken losses this year of over 25k. And we have tightened credit because of it. No "big daddy" is going to take care of us if we fail.

"Claim 5) Our friend Barak, Dodd and Barney are responsible for this crisis because they pushed socialistic UN beliefs on America. "Everyone has a right to own a home". "Everyone has a right to free health care"."

are you on planet earth? the information is out there for anyone who doesn't have a horse in this race to see? During the 1960s, the United Nations produced the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. Article V(e)(iii) proclaimed that all people had a "right" to housing. Both the Kennedy and Johnson administrations supported the treaty, but it was not ratified until the Clinton administration, Nov. 20, 1994. Since this time it has been the Dems who pushed for the realization of this communist notion in American public policy. Our good friend Mr Community organizer pushed for the realization of this policy in Chicago and we are now bailing out those who pursued this reckless policy. (I might add, the republicrats stood by and did nothing for the most part).

 

OK read here:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2044783&postcount=62

 

"OK read here:


I read it earlier. Do you now propose that China is offering a new form of government? Do you suppose that China offers more religious freedom than other forms? China is communist. They know that econmically this system is dead, it doesn't work. So they have copied as much of our system as they dare, while still restricting freedom. They suck our money into their system and send us goods which injure and sometimes kill our people, I guess their "regulation" isn't working as well as capitolism just yet. You list "scandanavian countries" as if just throwing out names is supposed to advance an argument. America is the greated nation on the face of the earth in all of history in terms of freedom for the most amount of people. Warts and all, nothing else compares, nothing.

 

Ok more specifically tell me how, on a per capita basis, USA is better than Norway? (I know a little about Norwegians and Norway as I was married to one from Oslo for about 30 years and have been to Norway many times. Both daughters are are fluent in Norwegian and have worked there.*)

Lets start with public edcation system as the US could learn how to do it better from the Norwegians.
Ex wife was a elementary school teacher. First thing is: These teachers are all very well qualified (Fluent in several languages, Three of which are variants of Norwegian, (RicksMal, NovaNorsk and I forget name of third) but she also was in French, German and English, etc. Next and an importance difference is: The teacher can not just pass the problem child on to the next grade teacher - she IS the next grade teacher. That is, you get a group of first or kindergarden students and stay with them until they graduate - Thus, in second grade you do not waste first month learning that John is good in math but not in reading etc. The whole class works together to make good, well-educated, responsible citizens of the future. For example, teacher may ask John to help Sally with fractions while she gives Tim direct help on something else.

All of her students who were expecting her to teach them for their fourth year came to our wedding (in a 600 year old semi-rural church). If looks could kill, I would not have lived 5 minutes. - I was this evil American taking THEIR teacher away. The whole community knows who are the best teachers - no ducking responsibility by passing your student on. Some from her first group were sending Chrismas letter to her 30 years later. Most are high up in Norwegian society - one usually closed his letter with (in translation): "You made me what I am today - If you ever have financial need, just let me know." I would put dollars to donuts** that not one American first grade teacher ever got such an offer or expression of thanks.

You seem like most arrogant Americans - unable to realize that many good idea and better systems exist than those in America.

Your turn:
Why not compare, life expectancies, the health care systems, or the quality of life, cultural levels, care of the old, crime rate, murder rates, etc. between US and Norway?
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*In hotels during the summer. The younger one at age 11 was too much for the planned entire summer visit with Grandmother. A lady visiting neighboor was in Oslo to see doctor as having problem pregancy and was told she needed to say in bed full time. She took my daughter to Bergen (on west coast) to care for her 4 year old boy. To get back to Oslo at end of summer, this pretty blond 11 year old girl, by herself, took the mail boat up the fjord (changed to correct boat when 3 boats met for transfer of mail and pasengers in mid fjord, then from that second boat at Flam the cog wheel train up the mountain side to the main train lime, then when back in Oslo, then took two electric buses and then a final short walk to Grandmother's appartment. If that had been in USA she could have been raped and would never have made it, but it was Norway, so I was not worried much. (She was already fluent and level headed.) Many helped her make the trip safely.

**Correction: "dollars to donuts" is the standard idem, but considering the value of the dollar now, change that to "a dollar to a peanut"

 

"You seem like most arrogant Americans - unable to realize that many good idea and better systems exist than those in America."

who ever said that no good ideas can come from some other place. All of America's ideas have been imported! What I have stated, is that in terms of freedom, no other country compares to America. What was topping the list early on as a competitor was China. I guess when the original poster released that dog wouln't hunt, we received a switch up to some obscure little country like Norway. I have nothing against Norway, but it I don't hear of a lot of people wanting to move there. I hear of a bunch wanting to move here.

The original poster started off with the fallacy that capitalism doesn't work. He didn't prove this point, he merely sited examples of corruption as his basis for throwing it out, then went on to state that we must now merge capitalism with communism. What a bunch of idiocy and false logic this is!

 

In America there are two main limits to your freedom: one is of course your financial state and the other is your educational state. In most developed countries the average educational state is at least equal to the average education in the US, and in at least a dozen it is better.

Until recently the US was number one in income* per capita -Dubai holds that position now and several others relative small countries are in front of the US, but many more would be if the total wealth that their average citizen receivers (instead of just earned salaries) from their society were the measure of “income."

What is worth to have free education, free health care, free or low-fee old folks homes, good low-cost public transport, safe streets at night, low crime rates, guns rarely used to kill citizens etc. ? Hard to put a numeric dollar value on that, so they do not, but in a general sense it is income too – explains in part why the US is no 13 on the list kmguru gave.

US did not have WWII fought on its land. What has happen in EU, Japan (world's 2nd economy) and China in only 6 decades is amazing economic advance. All were destroyed in WWII and now they are all rapidly gaining on the US. In two decades or less China will be the county with greatest GDP, even if the coming US & EU depression is mild and short lived (only five years or so)

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*I do not remember exactly how long ago it was, perhaps 35 years ago?, but then the "poverty level" in US was higher than the AVERAGE income level in Canada! US averages have been going down in relation to others and During the Bush administration, even the actual wage has been going down in terms of purchasing power.


PS not sure who you are referring to in the "china at top of list" or in what "competition" but all I said when mentioning "Scandinavian countries was that China was "experimenting" with sort of the same system that had been used in Scandinavia much longer than three decades and has worked very well there also. As for freedoms it is interesting to note that in Scandinavia women were voters many decades before they were in the US and Norway had its first woman president long ago.

Now it looks like that the US will at least beat them in one freedom - be first, to have a black president,

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but many blacks and hispanics in the US, for practical purposes, are “wage slaves” living “hand to mouth” or jobless with little real freedoms unless they turn to crime. They are victims of the poor edcation system that their poor neighborhoods can afford to pay for, while the rich neighborhoods have good schools.

 

we rebuilt Japan after the war, another thing that makes America great and why they are prosperous again.

And there you go, mentioning China again. They are making money and growing their economy with money from the U.S. A recent report stated that they are going to renege on the 100 billion they owe us. But again, China is not free! The still throw you in jail if you are a person of faith and don't wish to participate in their puppet churches. They harvest your organs while you are in prison and slaughter you in front of the world if you protest their abuses.

The failure of the American school system is that it is government run! Someone earlier mentioned homeschooling. Try that in Germany and you will go to jail. Fortunately, not here in the U.S.! The opportunities to achieve wealth are still present in our country and many imigrants discover this daily. Our nations african amercians have been hampered by the disintigration of their familys and those governement "hand ups" that obamation refers to.

I agree that a black president would be a great statement and one that will contradict yours. And if Obama becomes president I will celebrate that aspect of his victory. But I will not vote for him because he doesn't represent American values and for that matter, I am not voting for McCain for the same reason.

 

Yes, I did mention China and said that there are aspects of their economic system that may be better than the US's system. Those that resemble those that have been in place even longer in Scandinavian countries. China is very pragmatic in its economic policies now - Not nearly as hide bound to its ideology as the typical Republican in the US. (Even in the current US economic failure, many of them are calling for less regulation of the "free market" - perhaps you are one?) For example, yesterday, China made a historic policy shift - the peasants can now rent their land to others, use it as collateral for loans, (and as that could cause them to loss it, I assume they can even sell it, but my newspaper article was not clear on that point.)

The typical Chinese feels much freer than his father did and in fact is. He is free from the domination of the local rulers, can even denounce them, free from hunger, (30million starved to death less than 25 years ago when communistic ideology was stronger and the land was put into collective farms), free to move wherever he likes, leave his farm, for example as nearly 1 million do each month to work in the city.

This is not to say that he enjoys the same freedoms as the American does; however, US freedoms are slightly contracting (if declared an “enemy combatant" - you do not even get your constitutional trial by you piers - you just go to jail as at least two US citizen have.), while those in China are expanding at a rate unprecedented in history. That is why the typical Chinese feels freer, even if not as free as the typical American. This difference shows up in the discussion of "human rights" They place greater importance on some human rights that until recently few had - food security - educational opportunity - personal mobility (to take new job in city etc.) and less on totally uncensored internet, public protests, etc. As they put it: "The harmonious society" is the main human right, not the right to protest the crime-ridden, sex-oriented, society of the rich and poor of the US. They are a long way from their stated goal and many are "more equal" than others still; but the rate of even social progress, while not as amazing as the rate of economic progress, is still impressive.

As I stated in last post, (and you did not respond to) in the US many blacks and Hispanics do not in practice enjoy much of the freedoms that the Chinese are placing their emphases on. I.e. their school is rat infested and it "library" has no books, their medical service is the hospital emergency room, to be save on the street you need to be member of a gang, your food is often limited, your parents are effectively a wage-slaves, living from hand to mouth with salary whose purchasing power has been decreasing for half a decade under GWB.

You may (or may not) think incomes are well distributed in the US but surely you must admit that "freedom" is not as the "human right freedoms" of the prior paragraph are not. - These freedoms are very much linked to your incomes - The children of these black and Hispanic were not permitted to go to a good school so they will be the wage-salves of the next generation, assuming there are even those jobs still available, which is at least in doubt now.

Summary:
I agree China is lacking many freedoms that many in the US enjoy, but it is also true that China is providing to ever more of it citizens the essential freedoms that are becoming ever more rare in the US to many as their purchasing power falls annually.