What is space?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by kaneda, Sep 25, 2008.

  1. MarcAC Curious Registered Senior Member

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    Likewise (see below).
    Well, if you're talking about some personal religious knowledge - sure, you do.

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    In science, though, knowledge demands significant consensus - lacking here.

    So you define "Bible thumping" as: having a go at atheists who know hardly an inkling of science and try to use it to support their assertions?

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    Taught you a few lessons in the Religions forum, didn't I? It is evident in your radiant affection. Don't worry, I can and will give you some good lecturing here too. Go ahead, just post some substance... Then we'll be able to settle the issue of ignorance.
     
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  3. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Space does not move.
     
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  5. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    You think?
    Or you know this to be the case? Can you provide any supporting evidence, any fundamental reason that shows definitively "space does not move"?
     
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  7. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    Are any of you really expecting an answer to this question? That space can be described in terms of some other "entities"? That space is made of X, Y, and Z components?

    Space contains things. Like particles and energy. It's just a word for the distance between things.

    So how can space be expanding, which it certainly appears to be? I have no idea. I've never heard a coherent explanation of the mechanism by which the metrics of distance in the universe can expand. Or even what that really means. Maybe someone esle knows this. I'd love to hear it.
     
  8. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    I asked about the "space does not move" claim, because logically you need a reference frame to determine the motion of anything.
    To determine if space itself is moving, or not moving, would require an absolute frame of reference, wouldn't it? But no such thing exists that we know about (yet).

    Although I recall something about the CMB having some sort of 'axis' or preferred direction (don't know where that ended up, though).
     
  9. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. And yes, the CMB appears to have a pronounced dipole in the general direction of some constellation which I can't remember.
     
  10. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    There is nothing to space to move. Things in space may move.
    To determine whether space is moving, 1 must understand what space is & isn't.
     
  11. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    It is on the front burner for me. True, particles have a kind of stability and unpredictability that seems to defy their composition as energy.

    Here is how I think the two view work together:

    Matter exists because the particles are stable and important combinations of particles have electromagnetic characteristics which serve to keep them apart and cause them to work together instead of individually or instead of merging into single particles.

    Particles are separate and stable in most ranges of energy density and can display their mass, gravity and charge.

    Only under extreme compression does the energy density get too high, and when it gets too high particles can no longer function separately.

    At that high energy density, particles not only cease to perform the mass and gravity function, but also they cease to move separately and the charge characteristics are lost because charge requires the particles to have different momentum relative to each other.

    The result is that IMHO matter cannot function in the core of a big crunch.

    The mass/gravity function and the electromagnetic components of photon energy emerges from the mass gravity function. IMHO here is how:

    Mass that goes into a big crunch is converted to the "dense" state of energy, i.e. too dense to be considered mass because mass/gravity doesn't work in the dense state. Gravity fails and the big crunch subsequently fails, releasing energy in its dense state, compressed to the maximum energy density possible at the moment of release.

    The onset of the dense state requires a particular extremely high energy density that can only be achieved when the equivalent of a whole arena of matter and energy enters the big crunch. This is a tiny amount of the total matter/energy of the greater universe, but it is equal to the total matter/energy of our observable expanding universe (an arena) all crunched up into the dense state of energy inside the big crunch.

    Now here is the important premise in regard to how matter can be stable particles throughout a wide range of energy densities and yet fail as matter/energy crosses the threshold into the dense state. Matter always forms from energy that has been compressed into the dense state. Matter does not form from energy that has expanded to the equilibrium state of energy (de Sitter space if you think in those terms). Gravity does not allow matter to expand to equilibrium because the average energy density of the universe is too high to allow expansion to continue until the equilibrium state is achieved. The high average energy density of the greater universe assures the eventual merging and mingling of galactic remnants formed in separate arenas during expansion from the dense state. So dense state energy expands, matter forms and exists until it is captured in the core of a subsequent big crunch.

    To the point, matter always forms during the declining energy density of the dense state. When matter forms, the energy density is so high still that the first matter to form is so close together that the gravity that begins when mass forms is strong enough to make adjacent initial energy quanta to have individual momentum relative to every adjacent quanta.

    The quanta are not fixed particles but are convergences of high energy density spots within the expanding dense state energy. The spot is very temporary and very instantaneous but there is momentum created during the instant that the high density spot exists. The momentum causes the energy that occupied the temporary instantaneous high density spot to move toward its nearest adjacent neighboring quanta which is just as instantaneous and temporary.

    The two patches of energy from the high density spots have themselves expanded and where they overlap a new high density spot forms in the space that was between them when they were individual high density spots.

    The new spot has some energy from each of the former spots and the focus of the new high density spot is between the two former spots. This process is called quantum action.

    Quantum action typifies the entire energy environment as the energy from the dense state emerges from the big crunch. Quanta clump together, form new quanta, and the individual quanta always stay in quantum increments but group into swirling masses of individual quanta that begin working together as a particle. Particles interact as a result of their own gravity and momentum and move in patterned ways relative to each other. Charge develops from the relative motion as energy differentials grow to physical limits determined by the amount of space available and the momentum and synchronization of the particles as they form. Formed particles lock in their own space and become stable.

    Expansion is rapid at this time because of the huge simultaneous release of the potential energy forced into the dense state inside the big crunch. The clumping slows as particles lock in their own space but gravity still overcomes expansion and clumping of particles continues throughout the formation of stars and galaxies. Finally expansion over rules gravity and the galaxies all move away from each other as they move toward their future rendezvous in the greater universe.

    I hope you can get a glimpse of how things would progress as matter forms from energy released in its dense state from a big crunch because I have already taken up too much space in your thread for one post.
     
  12. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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  13. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Not necessarily. Space is simply the distance between objects, hence the distance between objects is expanding. The only "something" would be the objects themselves and not the space between them.
     
  14. Saxion Banned Banned

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    Well, actually, there is no such thing as empty space, so space has something to.
     
  15. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Agreed. I'm not arguing space cannot contain things, simply that those things are not encapsulated within the definition of space.
     
  16. Saxion Banned Banned

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    I know, but every square measurement of space has something. Even if it is not visible.
     
  17. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Aaaaaaarrrggghhhhhhhhhh
     
  18. Saxion Banned Banned

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    What's wrong?

    Did your joint release a bomber?

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  19. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    Wow, you guys are having trouble with this, it's not that hard of a question, atleast move past the simple Daoist concepts of what space is.

    Something does not have to be a gas/liquid/solid or have energy mass to exist in this universe, our universe is mostly made up of space it is the key foundation that supports everything in existence. It is not so mind boggling once you give it alot of thought, if you hve an empty fish tank space is whats inside, fill that tank with water and you still have as much space in the tank only it is physicaly occupied on that dimentional level now it is full.

    Space is the actual fabric of our universe, it is what makes everything possible. I did not realise space confused so many people.


    peace.
     
  20. superluminal I am MalcomR Valued Senior Member

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    This was not helpful in the least.
     
  21. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    But whats the confusion?,

    Space is the universes framework, like the canvas underneath a painting but 4d and without a what we call "normal" physical make-up. It is the actual universe itself.


    What is everybody not understanding about it exactly?. Is it because it seems to be non physical tha we cannot understand how it was created or came about?. I think space is the one thing that has always existed, not effected by change or time.


    peace.
     
  22. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    "Nothing" is an abstract, it does not exist.

    peace.
     
  23. Vkothii Banned Banned

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    How can something that doesn't exist contain anything? Space 'contains' matter and energy (cosmology 101); it expands. How does a container that expands, not exist at the same time? (cosmology 102)

    Or you mean: "nothing does not exist"? That's not very insightful, as mentioned...
     

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