A teddy bear for Gitmo

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by S.A.M., Aug 29, 2008.

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  1. Kadark

    Kadark Banned Banned

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    ashura,

    Yeah, I see what you mean.

    Look, I agree with your arguments wholeheartedly. I'm simply asking you politely not to post those graphic pictures.


    Kadark
     
    Kadark, Aug 29, 2008
    #41

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  3. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Okay, I'll delete them, it just pisses me off to see the hypocrisy rampant here. I'm sorry for any offence caused to you.
     
    S.A.M., Aug 29, 2008
    #42

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  5. Kadark

    Kadark Banned Banned

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    No need to apologize. Seeing those pictures really put me in a bad mood, which is why I try my best to avoid them. I understand what you're saying about the hypocrisy: if you're for the war, and you support these prisons, then you can't complain when somebody discusses them/shows images of them.


    Kadark
     
    Kadark, Aug 29, 2008
    #43

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  7. (Q)

    (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Tetchy.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    (Q), Aug 29, 2008
    #44
  8. ashura

    ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

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    ashura, Aug 31, 2008
    #45
  9. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Fraggle is right.

    This is an issue that has been continually discussed in the American press, by commentators, by politicians and others.

    It is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that this is something that is not discussed.
     
    James R, Aug 31, 2008
    #46
  10. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Really? Last I checked, the torture camps were still open.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
    S.A.M., Aug 31, 2008
    #47
  11. Fraggle Rocker

    Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Sam, the prison camps are just one of many horrible aspects of the war in Iraq. And I think you'll agree that it's not the biggest issue; as bad as the prisons are, occupying the country, destroying its infrastructure and wantonly killing its civilians is far worse.

    You know this, you're just being disingenous to stir up anti-American feelings among the members who don't have your advantage of seeing our country first-hand.

    Once again, Sam, SHUT THE FUCK UP. You are lying. If I have to say this one more time we're going to have it out on the moderators' board, where you aren't very popular right now because of your incessant lying bullshit.
    How about the entire fucking WAR? Why do you pretend to be so stupid? Do you want us all to believe that your Stone Age religion has created so much cognitive dissonance in your mind that it doesn't even work right any more?
    Why do you talk as though, of all the things that have happened since our Backward Baby Boy president invaded Iraq, these are the worst? Our soldiers are over there KILLING PEOPLE. Most of the people in the prisons you're talking about are still alive. As soon as we get rid of Bush we can turn them loose. The dead ones will still be dead.

    Obama has promised to end the war, and if he can be trusted to fulfill his promise, once that happens the camps will be shut down. He doesn't need to see one personally to object to them any more than I do.
    Well golly, the newspaper last week showed photos of people in Iraq CARRYING THE DEAD BODIES OF THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS. I wonder which of those two kinds of atrocities is worse.
    So let me get this straight. You want us to concentrate on closing the torture camps, but it's okay if we keep killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan? That's the only possible interpretation one could draw from your many posts on this thread. I suppose that really is your Islamic side showing through. It's okay to kill people, but not to humiliate them. Fucking Abrahamist bullshit.

    No, Q, this isn't about you. This is about Sam being a baby. She tests the limits and some of us continue to forgive her so she gets away with it. Then she pushes harder. She seems to be determined to see how far she can push before everyone starts to slap her down. I think she's about a day and a half from that limit, and only because tomorrow is a holiday.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
    Fraggle Rocker, Sep 1, 2008
    #48
  12. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Stop lying? About what? I don't care what order you do it in. Get out of other countries or stop the torture. But I think logistically its like asking, should we keep Auschwitz on the burner while we wait till Germany is defeated?

    I think I'd rather see the torture camps closed asap, thank you very much. You're not getting out of either country for another couple of years yet if at all for another decade or two, I'm not for the torture camps to continue till you get around to them eventually. Just stop the torture. Right now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
    S.A.M., Sep 1, 2008
    #49
  13. Asguard

    Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    FR i find it very sad that you would rank destruction of infrastructure as a greater crime than torture

    as far as i know once the new crime of torture is introduced it will carry a penelty of life just as murder does. Arson and other distruction of property carries MUCH lower sentances.

    so your right murder may well be the top of the list of evils but torture comes 2 not destruction of infrastructure is a much lower crime unless it leads to death
     
    Asguard, Sep 1, 2008
    #50
  14. Bells

    Bells Staff Member

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    Whoa there buddy.

    You're saying that torturing and murdering people is somehow less bad than destroying the infrastructure? That torture and murder is not that much of an important issue in this war?

    Dude!:bugeye:

    Your country (as well as my own) are fighting in a war and claiming that we are somehow the 'good side'. How in the hell can we be saying we are the good side when we torture or allow the torturing and murder of people? How can we claim to be better than the one's who kidnap Westerners in Iraq and Afghanistan (for example) and then torture and murder them, when we are doing it ourselves or allowing it to continue and then trying to find a legal way to allow it to go on?

    Torture and murder is a crime, by any definition. That it is not one of the most important issues in your country is a sad day for your country. That people can be merely bothered by it and not speaking out angrily against their Government for committing such crimes in their name, is a sad indictment for your country.

    How exactly is she lying? Are you claiming that it does not happen at all? You have stated yourself in this thread that while Americans are bothered by it, but consider it to be a less important issue. In short, she is pointing out where you guys may have gotten it all wrong. If you do not value the sanctity of human life and think that torture and willful murder is not a primary issue that should be fought against and not tolerated in any way, shape or form, but instead are being merely bothered by it and think the destruction of infrastructure is a bigger issue, then you and I, my friend, have lost the war our countries should never have become involved in.

    Ya do realise you and she agree on this, don't you?

    She wants the killing to stop as much as you do. She wants the war to end, as fast as you do. You differ in that you do not consider the ongoing torture of detainees and prisoners to be an important issue worth keeping in the forefront of American thoughts. And it should be. You cannot fight a just war and claim yourself to be the good guys when you are doing crap like this in the background.

    What? You can't do both? Is it really that hard to shut down those camps? Those camps are also killing people FR, or has that fact escaped you?

    You think not destroying a gas line (for example) is more important than the torture and murder of people in those camps? Again.. Dude?
     
    Bells, Sep 1, 2008
    #51
  15. iceaura

    iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm. No it isn't. Not really.

    A sort of cleaned up version of things is alluded to, occasionally. But it's one of those situations where the "balance" seems to be between propaganda and fact, and in this case even the facts are quite obviously edited for official acceptability. The mainstream media can't even simply use the word torture, or discuss the implications of the US having adopted a policy of torture "interrogation", with special prisons and trained personnel and secrecy and the whole banana republic paramilitary ("contractor") setup.

    Now I agree that SAM exaggerates here, both in her Auschwitz comparisons and her description of American indifference. But not by so much,or in such a way, as to be lying, and definitely not outside the norm of this forum in my experience. This, for example, is ridiculous:
    I think if the mods are going to clean house on what is objectionable in SAM's posts, they have a few posters to get through before they hit SAM - Buffalo, most obviously, because his posts are often adjacent to SAM's in the same threads. You can't have missed them and caught SAM's.
    I drew completely different interpretations, myself. And I don't think yours is supported - get a grip.
     
    iceaura, Sep 1, 2008
    #52
  16. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Try to keep your eye on the ball, please.

    One minute you're complaining about press coverage, the next you're complaining that "torture camps" are open.

    Do you feel the need to divert from your silly statement that there has been no press coverage of Guantanamo?
     
    James R, Sep 1, 2008
    #53
  17. TW Scott

    TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    They mean it about as far as Ralph Nader could throw Rush limbaugh with his pinkie.

    Look, I don't doubt some abuses are going on in prisons. It's just the nature of prisons. You try to keep them clean and legit, but some bad apples are always going to louse things up. Not to mention that former prisoners are going to lie about their incarceration. Just the nature of the beast.

    I don't support torture, but I also do not support rulling it completely out as a method of interrogation. Why? Becuase having the prisoner fear what might happen but never does is far more effective if they know it could. In other words don't outlaw it, just refrain from using it.

    As for habeas Corpus, the Guatanamo prisoners have that in the only form avalaible. These prisoners are not violaters of US law, but of Geneva conventions. A Civillian judge has little to no expertise in these matter and therefore cannot render an appropiate decision. Meanwhile the military tribunals are versed in the conventions and in international law and they can render properly informed decisions. The prisoners are being processed as quickly as resources and manpower allow.
     
    TW Scott, Sep 1, 2008
    #54
  18. Tiassa

    Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    You mean torture and murder are BAD things?

    It seems to me that some people are upset by the possibility that American prestige might be harmed by torture and murder.

    But that can't actually be, since such a condition would suggest that people think torture and murder are either irrelevant, or ought to increase American prestige. After all, defending the world from the effects of our own doing is such a thankless job.

    What it comes down to is that the torture advocates can't find a reasonable argument to support their position. While some would simply say that they do not support rulling it completely out as a method of interrogation, that's a weak answer. Expert witnesses before a Congressional committee could not establish a pretext under which torture would be useful. Of course, those were mostly critics; the supporters of torture policy—namely those in the Bush administration—generally don't seem to want to even try.

    I think there are some people here who need, for the greater safety of the world, to take a brief hiatus from Sciforums in order to write their torture theses and send them to misguided American officials, such as Gen. David Petraeus, and let him know how grossly incorrect he is:

    One of the problems with having lofty principles, such as those the United States traditionally espouses, is that from time to time, you actually have to live up to them. If we choose to dispense with the myth of noble America and celebrate our tyranny, then let us do so honestly and publicly. In the meantime, as long as we continue to teach our children such noble myths, we should expect that some Americans will occasionally fall for the ruse. Frankly, I like the myth. Seemed to me, when I learned it, pretty cool. I keep hoping that we'll make good on it, but more and more it seems we're verging toward the confession that it was pure bullshit all along.

    • • •​

    One other note, and perhaps James R might be able to help me out on this one. I'm curious how many complaints people make about pictures of American atrocities compared to those by, say, Iran.

    For instance, I haven't heard a peep about off-topic digressions including images of Iranian offenses.

    So I'm just curious, as a general question, what did I miss?
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Petraeus, Gen. David. Memorandum. May 10, 2007. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/petraeus_values_051007.pdf

    See Also:

    "Putting a Myth to Rest: Ticking Time Bomb/One Hour". Sciforums.com. May 12, 2008. http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=80910
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
    Tiassa, Sep 1, 2008
    #55
  19. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I sort of think the fact that torture camps are still functional, open and running as a sign of American indifference. Expecially in the light of court judgments that Gitmo detainees are not persons under American law [no one even talks about Abu Ghraib, Bagram or Diego Garcia, in fact the average American response to the last two is puzzlement, because most of them have not even heard of them] or that torture should be expected in military prisons and that officials are immune from prosecution because they are merely doing their jobs. Are you denying that there has been less than adequate exposure of these lunacies? Frankly, I'm surprised at you. I would have imagined you would be on the side that wanted these places closed down. What is your opinion of the fact that not a single Presidential elect has visited even one of these torture camps where people have died from abuse?

    Can you imagine the same reaction to say, a $10 increase in the gas prices?

    After seeing how Buffalo's [or in fact, anyone's] diatribes against "Moslems" are rarely moderated, I have become used to the double standards here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2008
    S.A.M., Sep 1, 2008
    #56
  20. John99

    John99 Banned Banned

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    It should go without saying that annyone reposnding in this thread has the predisposition to torture.
     
    John99, Sep 1, 2008
    #57
  21. John99

    John99 Banned Banned

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    True but you cannot be put on ignore so that is your ace in the hole.

    Why am i even responding to this guy?:shrug:
     
    John99, Sep 1, 2008
    #58
  22. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    SAM:

    I'm not sure you can extrapolate the mood of an entire nation from the inactivity of its executive government.

    The fact is: many Americans are outraged by the continued existence of the prison at Guantanamo, and by the "rendition" and torture of prisoners, and all the other things you're complaining about.

    The US government will be changing, one way or another, in January. Whether it is McCain or Obama as President, I think we're going to see a change in US policy on torture. And Guantanamo.

    Which court judgments said that?

    Citation, please.

    How did you hear about these things? They are all over the media.

    Absolutely. The fact of the existence of the Guantanamo prison and the torture and rendition of prisoners has done enormous damage to the standing of the United States on the world stage. As Obama said in a recent speech, America is supposed to be better than this. How disappointed the "free" world is about such behaviour by the only remaining superpower.

    I'm not sure whether they would be allowed to visit, even if they wanted to, but maybe they would.

    What would be achieved by Obama or McCain going there, do you think?

    What is needed (and both candidates are well aware of this) is a change in policy and in laws.
     
    James R, Sep 1, 2008
    #59
  23. S.A.M.

    S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for making my point. Didn't hear of it, did you? Why?

    As for the rest, I'd like to see how people would be "horror stricken" at Auschwitz and still have it up and running. The military is apparently deporting the prisoners to secret foreign locations while we await the leisure of the American public.
     
    S.A.M., Sep 1, 2008
    #60
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