What is the difference between Allopathy, Homeopathy and Ayurvedic medicens?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by plakhapate, Feb 6, 2008.

  1. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    kmuguru can i just say im not against ALL CAM's. There is a push in australia for herbal remidies ect to adopt a system similar to the heart foundations red tick (in this case a green tick) to say that they have been scienticially tested for efficasy and i would NEVER suggest that aborigional traditional medicin shouldnt be used in conjunction with science based med. Some of there cures have better efficasy than westen med. Acupuncher and traditional chiness med is the same, it has been shown to have scientic efficasy.

    Its the basic principles of homopathics i find to be wrong and i surport scientic testing through the TGA for ALL medicinal substances. The problem is that alot of them are concidered to be foods by the TGA which means they are regulated by the Australian and New Zeland Food organisation (sorry not sure on the last word)
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    Asguard: The reason a lot of people in U.S., especially the retired citizens, want to keep herbal items as food supplement is because, there is a tendency for the pharmaceutical/doctor community to ban them as very little efficacy.

    One should note that herbal products like food has to be taken for a long time, perhaps all your life to provide the needed benefits. Therefore they are not drugs to cure anything, but support in the wellbeing of a person.

    For example one may (or may not!) improve stomach health such that one does not have to take a lot of antacids, proton inhibitors, pepto-bismul, and a whole lot of crap - by taking herbal item "Milk Thistle" and Probiotics as in Yogurt. If you start early, that could solve your problem. However, if you are in advanced stages of stomach problems, then it is like putting out a forest fire with a bucket of water. At this point look for Pepcid or whatever your doctor tells you. Because, there are several proton pumps in the body, you have to try a few to see what works! If the Pharma has its way....they want all of you to eat crap and go to them.

    I am for regulating herbal items only based on quality and not efficacy. Let the buyer decide what they want. I am also against herbal companies making big claims (it is agaist the law here). Remember, herbals are there for preventive measures and support in the healing process or maintaining hemostasis and not killing bacteria or changing your physiological process in a major way.

    For example, Red Yeast Rice can help reduce your Cholesterol about ~12%. If that is not enough, you should be looking at Lipitor or similar items. But they wanted to ban Red Yeast Rice. Do you know that they now have Garlic and Turmeric in a pill form? If you do not add that to your food...then you may have to take it as a pill....

    Homeopathy is a different animal not even in the same forest....
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    kmguru i wasnt talking about the US

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    , you have a very inteligent idea of keeping all food and drugs under the same body, we dont. The TGA regulates theorpudic goods in australia (only) and the food organisation deals with foods across both australia and NZ. Take for instance the butter that claims to lower colestrol, who checked that for eficasy or was it just tested to say 'yes this is a safe product to eat"?

    Glucosamine is an example of a CAM that is currently being critisised because the eficasy hasnt been shown to be there. Now why should they be able to make claims as definitly as something like st johns wart which HAS been through clinical trials and shown benifits (though with a lot of probmatic interations with other meds). Also there is a requirment for foods to have all there ingrediants labled but meds dont have this because the TGA puts out different advice on them (as to what sorts of people shouldnt take them ect). I have seen CAMs that avioid BOTH requirements because they are drugs to the ANZF body and they are foods to the TGA so who is actually making sure people dont get alergic reactions from taking them? who makes sure they dont interfear with other meds or even over the counter meds?

    All that would be needed is for the ingrediants to be listed, side effects to be reported ect BY LAW and an opt in system for efficasy
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    I agree. Certain chemicals that have claims associated should be tested and data published. Glucosomine falls in to that category. However, it may not be necessary to do the same for amino-acids or branch chain amino-acids...like Dimethylglycine etc.
     
  8. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,049
    im not sugesting that milk should be tested if calcium is good for older aged women. Milk is food (as is yoghert) but yacult on the other hand claims that the bacteria is a) good for you and b) arives live in the intestines (claims which yoghert never makes) so these should be tested by the a TGA. Thats what i meant
     
  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    If homeopathy is the idea that the effect of some solution in water becomes more effective the more it is diluted then at least when it is mainly water, and further diluted that is nonsense. I know something about water: Most important and not commonly known is that the formulae is xH2O where x is a spectrum of integers. I.e. because the two protons have given up their electrons to a large extent to the oxygen atom, it is negative and they are positive charge centers. Also they are both on the same side, 105 degrees in angular separation, so H2O has a permanent electric dipole. Thus it can and does form chains or "polymerize." These chains are constantly breaking and reforming - why x is a distribution, not a fixed integer. The higher the temperature the smaller the average value of x is. The chains become quite long (average x is in the double digits, I think) below 4C. So the jumble of these chains is sort of like a random jumble of increasingly longer spaghetti pieces - the void spaces occupying an increasing fraction of the volume as water cools below 4C - why, unlike not polar liquids it gets lighter before becoming a solid.

    Water has no mechanism for "memory" of what substance may have been present before in solution. To the extent that homeopathy is based on the false assumption that water "remembers" it is NONSENSE. But the placebo effect can make it appear to work - same as the placebo effect of sitting on two dimes will work for those who believe that improves their arthritis. Etc.
    ------
    Allopathic (conventional western style medicine) usually has demonstrable effects to support its use for treating certain diseases, at least FDA approved medicines; However, there are still serious problems with it. The first being that the diagnostic procedures are not always correct - so you may be treated for a disease you do not have, and generally this will to some extent damage you. Then there is the possibility that there is some delayed side effect - the deformed children (now in the 40s) of thalidomide being the extreme case but surely hundreds of lesser cases exist. (In the courts now is Votix probably production of many deaths.)

    I try to stay away from all medicines and even places like clinics where sick people are found. I often state that my body (yours too) is smarter than all the doctors in the world combined. Thus do not take aspirin to reduce mild fevers, antihistamines for my allergies, etc. I have on two or three occasions (once every 30 or so years) taken anti-biotic, but only after allowing my body (immune system) to try to kill the invading organism on its own for several days. While I have great faith in my body's defense that evolution as provided, I do recognize that evolution has been perfecting the attack skills of the bacteria also. Thus sometimes it is necessary to suddenly change the environment on them to one their ancestors never saw. Unfortunately their descendents will soon have seen most of these man-made anti bacterial agents as we feed them to cows etc. prophylactic etc. and very few behave as I do - they get anti-biotics several times each year.

    Avurvedic and herbal/ traditional medicines of other regions.
    I do not know much about these, but am sure some have real merit. Humans are fantastically good "collective correleators" All societies evolve and compete - Darwinian survival makes the medical wisdom they develop a net benefit although it can contain some aspect that are destructive. Most of these medicines are probably with little effect other than then placebo effect. Fortunately, modern scientists are finally realizing that some of these traditions and agents, which nature developed and man adventuresome ignorant men discovered are probably better than anything yet to come from some bio-chemical or biological drug company. One I do use is Mountain Arnica - it does seem to be every effective in aiding minor injuries heal. I also drink occasionally a tea (Mata Leon) and use a natural sweetener (Now commercially available as "Stevita") both of which have been used by Indians of Brazil for thousands of years. (I consider sugar, something man's insulin system did not evolve to cope with as it is only a few hundred year old, to be a slow acting posion.)

    There was an extensive study in England many years ago on the common cold. Many paid volunteers stay hours in a cold damp room each day for week or so (I forget exact details). The scientist concluded that does not cause one to catch a cold. They may be correct, but my money is on the collective unconscious correlative ability of millions of people as reflected in the very name "cold" and the general belief that these conditions do promote the catching of colds. True, many widely held beliefs are wrong. (My favorite example is not the "flat Earth" as few believe that now. I prefer the false belief that most still do hold that the "moon is orbiting the Earth" when in fact it has only a tiny wobble as it orbits the sun that makes it 13 times each year slightly less than 1 AU from the sun and 13 times slightly more than 1AU instead of an exactly elliptically orbit about the sun.)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 13, 2008
  10. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    evaluation

    Raithere: As Homeopathy is not evaluated on its own terms, it is judged on conventional medicine territory. That's why you are inclined towards dominat theory
     
  11. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    hypericum

    Kmguru: I think you are mssing the most important element: Homeopathy is an individual specific treatment, it is a tailor made. it is not that one medicine for same set of symptoms will cure everyone. If that would have been the case then it would have been same as allopathy. So hypericum , or the maater of fact any other medicine will cure the patient if it shows the symptoms of hypericum.

    By drinking gallons of hypericum or for the maater of fact any medicine, you would be pushing yourself towards its provings.

    And some times the side efects of allopathic medicine is so severe that leads to the death of patient. According to FDA, thousands die every year in US due to this. World knows about the side effects of alopathy. If i start writing about it, it would be no end in sight.
     
  12. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    Electric Fetus:

    Homeopathy: Beyond flat earth
     
  13. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    Electric Fetus: According to polyani, it is the normal practice of scientists to ignore evidence which appears incompatible with the accepted system of scientific knowledge, in the hope that it will eventually prove false or irrelevent.
     
  14. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    placebo

    It is not a matter of belief. If it is a right medicine for the patient, it works, otherwise not. If the mdicine does not matches the patient's symptoms, then no, however hard you try.

    Is your father a homeopathic physician?
     
  15. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    Pharmaceutical company wishes to ban not because of thier little or inefficacy but because it eat into their business.

    Most patients of allopathy tend to have been over-medicated and for long term (making them dependent/addictive)) through out their lives.

    Let the paptient decides what he wants: Allopathy or Homeopathy
     
  16. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    Due to Wrong diagnosis in allopathy there are millions of deaths of patients.

    According to FDA, votix caused more deaths than an entire vietnam war.

    Allopathic medicines gets consumed in body within a short span. So u have to take it frequently. This makes them addictive and prone to side effects.

    See yourself of antibiotics. Their overuse......do i need to say anything about it. So you need to consume what is bare minimum. This is precisely what we do in homeopathy: only that amount is administered which is sufficient, not more than that.
     
  17. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    http://www.deathbymodernmedicine.com/
     
  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    there are always outliers, but if the outliers have no pattern then the theory covers the facts, if not the theory will eventually need to be modified, this is how all science has come into understand the world, details like the Calvin cycle or insulin production pathway, homeopathy on the other hand has proven nothing.
     
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    You did not tell over what period this million deaths occurred, a but more serious objection to your one sided statement is the failure to recognize than many more than that (even it is correct, which I doubt) have been saved from early death by just the used of insulin alone* - not to even mention the use of ant-biotics. It is not hard to be certain about elevated levels of blood sugar - even when measured by the diabetic themselves in their home at cost of less than 1$.

    Do you favor a homeopathic approach as treatment for diabetes instead - perhaps the injection of water instead of insulin?

    Please tell more exactly what you mean by this. Specifically, are you one of the supporters of the idea that the more some agent is diluted with water the stronger is its effect, or do you agree that is Nonsense?

    -------------
    *Without some recognition of the benefits of allopathic medicine your conclusion that it is bad, or at least worse than homeopathic medicine, because it sometimes fails and even causes deaths due to erroneous diagnosis is exactly the same as the POV that if someone died as a pair of forceps were left inside the patient who had a ruptured appendix removed we never again should operate on people with ruptured appendix. Likewise your argument that because some people are wrongly diagnosed to have a ruptured appendix and then cut open needlessly (a few perhaps even dying from the analgesia) means we should never operate when someone has the symptoms of a ruptured appendix. That is nonsense and would directly cause the deaths of many more.

    What is the recommend homeopathic treatment for a person with abdominal pain, which is greatly increased when the area over the appendix is depressed, and also has greatly elevated white blood cell count, etc. ?
     
  20. kmguru Staff Member

    Messages:
    11,757
    What is the Homeopathy treatment for:

    1. ED
    2. Cancer
    3. Arterial Plaque
    4. Arthritis
    5. Compressed disc
    6. AIDS (India has a lot of AIDS patients)
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    And what is the success rate of Homeopathy at curing these disorders/disease?
     
  22. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    One medicine is prepared from cashews. For other medicines, would you go eating for thier sources from which the medicine is prepared.

    You must also remember that quantity of medicine administered plays an important part. Let me give you an example. Eating bananas in large quantitites cures constipitaton but eating them in small quanitity cures diarhea
     
  23. Dr. Nancy Malik Homeopathic Physician Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    231
    to blind everyone is blind
     

Share This Page