why do alot of evangelical(born-again) christians seem to be filled with hate

It seems you are exactly like that since you feel it is your duty to constantly point out the error of their ways. You seem like one of those 'superior' types who just has to go around telling people how wrong they are. You are filled with your own form of hate and distain.

 

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Yes, I feel hatred and disdain.
I am not pointing out their hatred and disdain in some abstract way. I am primarily responding to someone who has suffered their hate and disdain. In conversation with him I am learning about the pattern which I see as vastly more widespread that rationalists/scientists might have us believe.
I do not feel this is my duty.
You seem to have joined the ranks of the 'superior people'.

And I am not sure you understood what you quoted from my post. I was basically admitting that we all participate in the patterns that are sometimes easier to see in fundamentalists.

 

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I think there is a very, very common misunderstanding going on in these discussions.

Namely, if I say "I find Christianity bad because following its precepts leads to great suffering for me" - am I thereby pointing out the flaws of Christianity or Christians? Am I thereby telling anyone how wrong they are?

If I work out an argument why any belief in a creator god leads to passivity and bewilderment - am I thereby pointing out the flaws of Christianity or Christians? Am I thereby telling anyone how wrong they are?

 

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There is a difference between telling people that in your opinion X is happening and Y is the cause and telling people they are stupid, evil or delusional. The former is expressing your opinion the latter is a form of hate speech.

It seems that some atheists and non-Christians feel compelled to insult Christians. They claim they are doing it in the name of honesty but it seems to be done more in the name of disrespect.

I disagree with the views of atheists but I don't go out of my way to insult them. I realize their views are different from mine but I still try to treat them with respect. All I ask is the same respect in return.

 

I do not think my posts were intended as insults or were insults. I made an effort several times to point out that these patterns that I consider abusive are not restricted to the evangelicals nor even the religious. I think we can see the pattern quite clearly there. I would, however, be very frightened if evangelicals came to power in the US, which is certainly the agenda of some of them. This does not mean that all evangelicals are bad, at all. On the other hand I think that a sizable % of them would go along with the propaganda of the few in relation to non-Christians. Because, in part, they do not want or have a pedagogy that includes a great deal of directed questioning, especially of authority.

If I saw that the evangelicals had really had come to terms with the history of the Church in relation to non-christians I would not feel afraid of them in the same ways.

 

Do you think that your position and the positions of the atheists are of equal worth, equally valid?

 

I have confronted scientists and 'humanists' on occasions when I thought their smugness in relation to monotheists showed a lack of introspection. Here you have taken us to task for 'insulting' certain Christians. Have you taken Christians to task for the rage and blame they hurl as secular citizens, homosexuals, independent women, people who take child abuse seriously, the 60's hippies, Wiccans and so on?

 

I consider my position to be the more valid of the two. If I didn't feel that way I wouldn't hold it. That you even ask the question shows how little you respect my position and in turn, me.

 

Yes I have and I wll continue to do so. I have no truck with people on either side of the religious debate who either cannot or will not admit the humanity of those who believe differently than they do. There are Christians who insult non-christians, who refuse to admit that they have a right to their opinion(s). In my view they are just as wrong, if not more wrong than the atheists who insult Christians. I say more wrong because they profess to be followers of a religion of love and ye they exhibit hatred.

 

Atheists hear this complaint a lot, sometimes justified but in practice mostly derived from two circumstances:

- - a remarkable ability of theists - some of them, present company excluded for lack of evidence - to find insult in almost any observation or criticism that crosses their particular dogma.

In particular, the habit theists have of claiming sincerity of some belief as adequate grounds for respect - not only of the believer, but also of the belief - in matters of physical and historical fact, keeps running them into insult from people who are simply observing that the belief is nonsense.

- - and the fact that theists do not live in a world of atheists talking freely, and are not accustomed to hearing their own beliefs described in the same language they use for others' beliefs, their own ideas treated equally with the ideas of others, their own status as theists not taken as recommendation for their character or actions. This loss of status, as when a prince gets a parking ticket, seems to strike them as intrinsically insulting.

So your average theist seems oblivious to the implications of, say, the common newspaper account of someone apprehended in wrongdoing bringing their theism into the courtroom as a factor to be considered in sentencing. Do you see how easily such a worldview could lead to taking insult ?

 

If you consider that your position and the positions of the atheists are not equally valid, how then can you rightfully ask that they be treated with the same respect?

You said earlier:

My, how little you respect me, to interpret my words this way!

 

EXACTLY.

Many theists think that by virtue of them thinking their position to be superior, others owe them to think it superior as well and to bow to it.

 

greenberg, it is not a matter of what you say but of how you say it. People can disagree without being totally disagreeable. I need not ascribe to atheist beliefs to treat atheists respectfully. Atheists need not ascribe to theist beliefs to treat theists respectfully.

How often have Christians and other religious people been insulted on this board for their beliefs? Often enough for it to become an issue.

If I, as a Christian were to treat atheists the same way so many treat Christians I would be called upon it by other posters and rightfully so.

Atheists are not being asked to change their beliefs, to accept ours. They are being asked to not be so damned nasty and condescending when adressing Christians and others of faith.

 

Why is asking you

insultive?

 

*************
M*W: Pot-Kettle if there ever was one.

 

Probably not often enough. The irrational and superstitious should be insulted to the point that they ultimately feel embarrassed to announce their superstitions in public or attempt to push their irrational beliefs on others.

You're stuck on the label "atheist." I'm a rationalist. If being rational means that I'm without the embarrassment of having a superstition to adhere to in public, then that's a good thing. Though I've stood by the term in the past and been open about atheism, I'm fast realizing that its silly to have a label for something I'm not. I don't play golf, but I don't advertise myself as a non-golfer. I don't believe in astrology, but I don't consider myself an a-astrologist.

What you consider "nasty" and "condescending" is, in most cases, rational discourse. The superstitious always appeal to the cultural taboo they've established against being critical of religion. Fuck that. If you want to make batshit claims about the supernatural, then you deserve to be criticized for it. Indeed, you deserve to be ridiculed for it if those claims include magic underwear, walking on water, zombie messiahs, parting seas, stopping the rotation of the earth, etc., etc. ad nauseum.

 

Thank you for illustrating almost exactly what I was talking about, ylooshi. You seem incapable of discussing the issue without being purposely insulting.

 

Please point out where I showed I cannot or will not admit the humanity of those who believe differently than me.