the Great altar of Pergamon was stolen by German archeologist Theodor Wiegand in early 1900s. with his command, the temple was cut stone by stone and shipped to Berlin, Germany. it is now in museum in Germany. Turkish gov't has been trying to get the temple to where it belongs, but German gov't denies any wrong doing. do you think it is ok for thiefs to steal national treasures and historical monuments, and display them in their own museum or sell them in auction?
during early 1900s, Turkey was in independence war against England, Italy, France and Greece, and German archeologist/thief took advantage of the chaos and had no problem stealing the temple
Perhaps when the archeologist found the Great Alter he asked if he could take it back to Germany since he found it. Turkey gave him permission to take it for how else could he get it out of the country? If he did steal it, which must be proven, then that's another case. There's a solution that you could do. Turkey could make an exact replica of the Alter and have it wherever they want it. Germany could also make a replication of it and return the original if they really wanted to keep good relations with Turkey as well. Going back into history and finding out what actually did happen is often very difficult to do so some type of compromise should be developed don't you think?
unfortunately, having the replica is not acceptable for Turkey. you think Louvre would settle with the replica of Mona Lisa, if it was stolen from its museum 100 years ago? also there is enough evidence that German gov't did not ask for permission to take the Altar to Germany. attemps by Turkish gov't did not produce any result. Germans just simply deny any wrong doing. lets face it, huge temple was cut stone by stone when the Turkey(Turkiye) had other problems such as battles in many fronts. hope German gov't will stop denying the facts and return the temple to its rightful owner. also, years ago when Turkish gov't said that the temple should be under the blue Anatolian sky, Germans simply painted the ceiling of the museum blue. those guys have no shame!
There are a lot of antiquities in dispute the world over that are far more controversial than this. Indeed, the UNESCO Convention of 1970 stipulates that Germany has no reason to be compelled to return the artifacts to Turkey. Legally, Turkey has no case in the world court. They should employ diplomacy instead of whining to get their artifact back. Anatolia was still under the Ottoman Empire until 1923, so there isn't even a legitimate government to return the "altar" to since the current government of Turkey simply did not exist. Moreover, this temple isn't even Turkish, but Greek. If anyone has a claim to the reconstructed temple, its Greece. Finally, supposing the German government was willing to return it to Greece (the rightful owner after all), who would pay for the dismantling, shipping and reconstruction? It isn't as if the process would be cheap. P.S. Nationalist/Propagandist nonsense will not fly here. If you are going to start in on this again, I'll delete posts or move them to the cesspool.
skinwalker, what nationalist propaganda? are you paranoid or something? i am just asking for national for germanins to return the temple. whatever you are on, stop using it. again, Turkey paid the loans of Ottoman empire until 1953, it did not say "i am not ottoman empire". as you see, Turkey is successor of ottoman empire and has not only to pay ottoman's loans, but also ask its stolen culture back. and temple does not belong to Greece aither, it was in turkish land at the time of the incident. you should know better how to settle your case. PS. once i asked you "geoffP" has ridiculed another commentator, and you did not warn him for that. and i asked you "is it double standard?" you havent answered me since then PS
Perhaps I'm making a hasty generalization, if so -I apologize. But I do recall your previous activity and the flame war that erupted some time ago. Fair enough, with regard to the repayment of Ottoman debt. However, it remains that UNESCO and the world's governments have agreed to set an arbitrary date of 1970 as the point at which antiquities with provenances prior to this have a bit of amnesty. It should also be considered that the German institutions that financed and restored as well as carefully maintained the structure for nearly a full century have put considerable investment and time into it. While I agree that the temple is something that Turkey should hold in high regard and should be a source of pride, I also can't ignore that it may very well be that the structure wouldn't exist at all had these German institutions not procured it. Does that mean I agree with antiquities procurement methods of the 19th and early 20th centuries? Absolutely not. I've been quite vocal in the archaeological community in recent years about antiquities procurement and Stolen or Looted antiquities. But where would we draw the line? I tend to think the 1970 line that currently exists is too recent and it should be pushed back, but, admittedly, this opens many, many cans of worms around the world. And it creates the question, to whom does the past really belong to?, which was my point in my previous post. I concede that I may have been a bit too provocative by stating that "there's no legitimate government" to return the antiquities to now that the Ottoman Empire is no more (as you so rightly put me in my place by pointing out the Turkish assumption of Ottoman debt), but note my response to your next point: But the temple was Greek. And, at the time it was built, that portion of Anatolia was Greece. So, therein lies the question: does the temple belong to the Greek culture, the Ottoman culture, or modern Turkish culture? Or does it belong to the German institutions that have invested much time, effort, and financial resources in restoring and maintaining a structure that may have been forever lost to time as has been the fate of so many similar such structures due to wars, neglect, progress, land-development, private looting, and so on. I empathize with your position. The temple was originally located in what is now modern day Turkey. And Turkish archaeology is something of a fascination of mine. However, I don't see how it is practical or reasonable to expect that the German government would return this. One thing is for sure: there are those in Germany who visit this temple and are made aware of the majesty and glory of Turkish/Greek/Anatolian cultural heritage, and, regardless of who the rightful owner is, the temple serves as ambassador for this heritage, which inspires many, many Europeans to visit Turkey to see more of their cultural heritage. How would you know if I warned another member or not? Warnings are only visible to moderators and individuals who received them. This is a recent change. Nor do I play the "he-started-it" or "did-you-warn-that-guy?" games best left for the school yard. If you have a grievance or issue with my moderation, you'll get more mileage from polite (or at least civil) PMs or reports (from your own user account) than you will from in-thread complaints and other off-topic rants. Those get deleted along with the post they are part of since they are off-topic. Cheers.
I think it's wrong. I love the British museum but I don't think it's right for them to keep other people's national treasures. Like the Greek marble in the BM treated with god damn acid.The huge Buddha statues being blown to bits - f*cking arse holes. Or how the pyramids were stripped of their marble casing and how the sphinx's face was vandalized. Thank god Angkor Wat is now being looked after.
How do you come to the conclusion it's now Greek? That's like saying Alexandria is Macedonian, Constantinople is Greek. Those city states have long changed hands..
The culture it stole from itself, apparently. It has far more to do with the Western culture of the extant Greeks than Kemalism. What interest would Turkey have in either the altar or the church, except as a sacrifice to national or religious supremacy? It's like asking for your escapes hostages back. I'm so evil. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! The rules and warnings depend on the manner of ridicule. Where egregious, they are applied, and normally fairly.
Well yes but I think Turkish people have the claim as it was in their land.. anyway, those Turkish people probably are decedents from the Greeks
The temple isn't on either Turkish or Greek land. Its on German soil. And at the time it was transferred to German hands, the temple remains were on Ottoman lands. I'm not disputing the fact that the Turkish people have a claim on the temple as a cultural heritage item. What I'm saying is that it isn't simply cut and dried with regard to returning the temple to Turkish soil. That's not to say that it will never happen, but who really owns the past? The people that built the pyramids are long gone. The people that created petroglyphs in the Americas are long passed. The culture that constructed and used the Temple of Pergamon, too, have long ago ceased to exist as a distinct culture. What's important is that that culture isn't forgotten or taken for granted. If that means returning the Temple remains back to Turkey, then that's what should happen. But as long as the temple itself is providing educational resources for the culture that was willing to preserve it nearly a century ago, then it cannot be denied that the German academia took on the responsibility of preserving, restoring and protecting the temple as a cultural heritage resource. Personally, I'd like to see it returned to Turkey. But I wouldn't hold my breath nor would I cry foul since the current status of the temple is one of reverence, protection, preservation and notoriety. I'm not convinced that it is either practical, economical or wise to move this temple (it isn't a Krater, Kylix, or a sarcophogus, but an entire temple!) even across the street since it creates a risk of damage. Nor am I convinced that the Turkish government and academia is prepared to properly preserve and care for the temple as a cultural resource, though they may be. As with the Elgin marbles (bought by Lord Elgin from the Ottoman Empire), it may be detrimental to remove the temple stones from the climate controlled and carefully maintained museum that has been constructed around them. If the Elgin marbles were returned to the Parthenon, as many have demanded over the years, they would undoubtedly be subjected to the very acid rains and pollution decay that Athenian marbles are being destroyed by today. While the procurement of them may have been unethical (as was their sale), it may be that these marbles will survive those that didn't leave Greece in the 19th century.
Interestingly enough, the Pergamon Museum in Berlin also houses the Ishtar Gate to the inner city of Babylon, built by Nebuchadnezzar II (or a large part of it anyway... other pieces are in museums around the world). Western museums have a lot of antiquities from Near Eastern and Far Eastern sources (as well as Mesoamerican, Peruvian, etc.) because Western archaeologists (and, previously, antiquarians) did much of the excavation work around the world, and Western academic institutions, foundations and governments footed the bill for these excavations. That isn't to say that all the antiquities procured over the last couple of centuries were all ethically obtained. I wouldn't even say that most were ethically obtained. But it cannot be ignored that these antiquities would have long been lost to the world, including the nations that currently exist where the antiquities originate from, had they not been sent to museums where they were preserved, protected and restored. Even today, in Mesopotamia -the cradle of civilization- archaeological and cultural heritage sites are in danger of being forever destroyed and lost before they can ever be discovered. Indeed, this has already occurred. Only now, are some nations, like Turkey, Greece, Iran, and Egypt able to excavate, document, and preserve their cultural heritage sites. They, of course, have full rights to their sites and antiquities, but without proper economic support and academic resources, simply shoveling antiquities from the ground does more harm than good. Many nations are tempted to allow looting and raping of their lands even today since they are economically deprived and desperate for jobs and revenue (Mali and Bulgaria for instance). This was once the case for nations like Egypt and Turkey, which once looked the other way as their cultural resources were stripped and sold. Its a good thing that both of these nations have since understood the true value of their cultural resources, but there is still great risk to them. Only now has the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities recognized that it is paramount that they work to counter act the effect that tourism has on cultural features like the pyramids, temples, and sphinxes, with access to these being far more limited than they once were. You get in trouble now for climbing pyramids and stonework is increasingly roped off to prevent transfer of the oils and dirt from human hands which creates a patina or erodes surfaces. I'm all for return of major cultural artifacts to nations like Turkey and Egypt, but lets not be hasty. I'd rather return them to nations that demonstrate that they are ready to preserve them and protect them. Had the Ishtar Gate remained in Iraq, it would probably have been lost to the world forever. The Bamiyan Buddha statues in Afghanistan didn't survive the host nation that had the responsibility to ensure their preservation and survival.
I agree. It's really sad to think that much of the pre-Islamic culture in KSA is being purposefully destroyed because it is in conflict with Mohammadism Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Agreed. Here's the thing. Turkey is on an unavoidable slide from the brief holding position of Kemalism right back into the arms of religious extremism. There is no way around this; the election confirms the upswell of conservative theism, Mein Kampf continues to strongly ride the bookmarket circuit, religious minorities and their clergy are being murdered and kidnapped, the army is rumbling and the government is shaking their scimitars at the EU, demanding the keys to the door. (By the way: a worse idea is difficult to imagine.) For the moment, supported by the rigid reactionary backbone of the army, the old Ataturk is holding on (treading, nose in the air, on the remains of a million and a half Armenians lumping up the carpet) but that time is ending. What then? Well, if example is any judge, more repression against that dangerous 1% of the population who do not face Mecca - the haven of that bitter other sect to be hated and reviled, and envied for their holding of the holy places - for any reason with any more reverence than you or I, infiltration of the army and the quiet, confused struggle for control, and maybe a smidgeon more pressure against those insufficiently repressed symbols of the jahilya. Such would apply equally as well to the Pergamon as to the Hagia Sofia. It might be unlikely, given the secular nature of many Turks, but also maybe not. And return it to what end, anyway, if this is the direction Turkey is going? If these symbols of the early ignorance, as the present President of Turkey might call them, are merely to be blown to pieces or quietly neglected into ruin like an unwanted goldfish, then why return them? Why can the conservatives just not pretend that they're destroyed, as we pretend they have been sent back? Then everyone could be happy. What say you, Aziz?
This thread is about cultural antiquities and historical items and to whom these items truly belong. It will not turn into a political argument. Consider this a warning, Geoffp, but a friendly one.
I believe you just said the same thing, Skin. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I was just justifying my call with the political scheme behind it. 32
There is an argument to be made that if the items can not be safeguarded inside of Turkey then they should not be returned. BUT, I think Turkey does have a strong secular part of the populations. It's probably more secular now than at any other point in history.
