logically, nothing should exist

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Norsefire, Aug 21, 2007.

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  1. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    because it makes no sense, how can nothing become something? It's impossible that our universe or any universe or even existence was ALWAYS there, because everything had a start point

    So when existence started, how did it start? It's very confusing and complicated

    But logically, nothing should exist because it's impossible that existence always existed, how did it begin? Everything has a beginning so if existence has a beginning, what was before that?

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  3. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    By its very definition it doesn't seem it could. Have you ever seen an instance of *nothing*? It doesn't appear to be real.

    What you call a 'starting' point is a moment of change that is recognizable to you. It also has doesn't prove that it is impossible for existence to always 'be'.

    It might not have a starting point.

    It doesn't appear that *nothing* exists; hence, the implication is that existence has always existed... i.e. no beginning.

    Again, what you call a 'beginning' is but a moment of change that you recognize. Did you know there are parts of reality that move without time?
     
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  5. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    But everything needs to have started somewhere, to suggest that it always existed is......complicated and confusing, because that means time is eternal (or has been eternal) but then it raises the question: what the fuck do we live in?
     
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  7. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    why does everything need to have a starting point?. what have we ever witnessed to have a starting point?. we as humans have only ever observed transformation of energy, nothing else.

    the universe is very complicated and confusing, this very subject has lead to the suicide of the worlds best philosophical minds in the past. it is so fantasitic and mind boggling to even comprehend true infinity or finity, both are as strange to us mortal humans as the other.

    i spend most of my philosophy thinking time on this very subject. and i have come to a near conclusion, that existence is infact eternal and infinite, time does not exist, and there is only "NOW", and there was never a start of existence because it didnt need a start. things only need starting points if we believe time exists. if you eliminate time it makes sense.

    but ofcourse people dont like to eliminate time, especialy since so many scientific theories depend on it.


    peace.
     
  8. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    What we assume is nothing isn't the case for even nothing has some atomic particles or subatomic particles there invisible to the eye. The most important things in life are invisible to our eyes. Also remember that which ends begins, and that which begins also ends. A loop if it were or just never ending starting and stopping of time and matter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2007
  9. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe this is non-existence...
     
  10. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    if you imagine that nothing exists, you realize that it's unimaginable, and that's why imagination (everything) is born and creates everything. nothing is everything, because everything could be there.

    what is something? everything that exists is something, so you can never explain what something is, and that's why it can't be anything but nothing, illusion.

    without cause there is no effect. but the problem is that you think that the universe started in time, in the past, when it is constantly created now in this eternal moment, like a signal creates a picture on a TV.
     
  11. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Regardless of whether or not there is time or not, where did the absolute first creations of existence come from? Where did the energy they used come from? Where did it all come from? If it is a cycle, something needs to have come before it, so what came before existence?
     
  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    That's flawed thinking. It can be exposed as such by asking the simple objective question 'why?'.

    Do you value having answers that are easy to understand more than truth?

    It doesn't mean that. Did you know that photons (light) move through space and not time? Time is a construct of our universe specifically; however, when our universe expands / contracts it does so without being 'encased' in time. What this all means is that changes in mass require time and other forms of change do not.

    You don't live "in" something. That is a subjective term that really does not apply. You are a collection of atoms. Atoms are part of (not in) the universe. Lets say, there was a universe right next to ours and we tried to transfer some atoms to it. How would you do it? Could they leap from one universe to the other? The answer is 'no' because they are objects (with mass consequently) made out of space-time (i.e. they are made out of the structure of our universe). You are the same way. You are literally a cross section of the universe that is sentient... a point of consciousness if you will.
     
  13. andbna Registered Senior Member

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    But thats the point, without time 'creation' is completely meaningless. It's a case where the consequences are counter-intuitive indeed, intuitions are the only evidence you have, and almost all intuitions are useless if we remove time (since everything we know is based on it.)

    I'l quote Hawking, a public lecture on the beginning of time
    And the law of conservation of matter is the same as conservation of energy, so the enery did indeed 'spontaniously' exist. Remember, our intuitions and knowlege of conservation of energy/mattter (and thus thigns not spontaniously existing) are all based on the physics of our universe, which has absolutly nothing to do with the physics of the begginings of our universe.

    -Andrew
     
  14. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Again, this is flawed thinking. Lets perform the 'why' test. Why does there have to be an 'absolute first' of existence? Why does it have to be 'created'? Why would it have to 'come from' something?

    I think the idea of 'cyclic' would apply to our universe specifically (not necessarily reality). As long as reality just 'is' (i.e. no start / end ), a cyclic behavior can be infinite.
     
  15. Why? Registered Senior Member

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    Absolutely, logically nothing should exist. Perhaps that is in fact the case. But, what you think is something is really nothing.
     
  16. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Can you point out a single instance of *nothing* (i.e. a complete absence of anything / everything)?
     
  17. granpa Registered Senior Member

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    you assume that time had a beginning but then you conclude that before the beginning that 'nothing' existed. 'before the beginning of time' is a meaningless statement.


    the universe didn't come from nothing. it came from everything. big difference.
     
  18. Why? Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah. Maybe right now is nothingness. You just perceive somethingness as more than nothing, which it may not be.
     
  19. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    If it wasn't in some way created, how would it exist? What would it do? What would it change? Why is it there? Makes no sense to me.
     
  20. Why? Registered Senior Member

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    Well, a pretty big part of your conundrum is the fact that we can't see the higher dimensions from which the big bang (may have) sprung. It's like trying to figure out how a car works without being allowed to lift the hood.
     
  21. granpa Registered Senior Member

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    i prefer to think of existence in terms of events. everthing that exists is an event. to 'exist' is to 'do (something)'. what can one event do to another event? well it can 'observe' it. the event of observing another event is observed by other events. and so on and so on.
     
  22. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    if you section off a cubic meter of space, you can mention all of the atomic and sub-atomic particles and account for the existence of those. but what about the rest of the empty space?, empty space or force does exist, otherwise everything would be one connected piece of mass, there is an empty space that seperates everything. we cannot see, hear, taste, smell or touch this empty force, it eludes all 5 of our senses that we use to interact with the universe. this is as close to nothing as we can ever guess. yet it is still something on a level that we cannot interact with.


    peace.
     
  23. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    but you cannot create existence from nothing, an infinite universe that always existed, makes alot more sense than something comming from absolute nothingness. how would you even begin to explain how nothing can create something?


    peace.
     
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