surely science trying to enginner and clone children is just another sign of the way society these days is trying to shape and mould its inhabitants

all suggestions are welcome

um... since when is science trying to engineer and clone children?

cloning EMBRYOS (not fetus) and cloning children are two very different things.

please explain the differenc between life and life

well, life can be a bacterial cell, or it can be stephen hawkins.

yes but what is the difference?

that one can think, feel, reason, be angry, experience wonder, be happy, be sad, etc. and the other... it just... exists.

human life isn't just a bunch of cells you know.

or is it?

I wonder if you could pinpoint my self, my life and existance in this which is, fundamentally, though changing and dynamic, a bunch of cells.

Well yeah, humans ARE a bunch of cells, but what I was trying to say is that the emergent properties (thought, feeling, emotions, etc) of a lot of functioning cells isn't there yet, and fetuses ARE just a bunch of cells.

and yes you can "pinpoint" your self, your life and existance blah blah. It's your brain. Everything you are is in the brain.

surely science trying to enginner and clone children is just another sign of the way society these days is trying to shape and mould its inhabitants
I didn't get a response from you when you asked this same question in the Biology sub-forum, so I'll re-post my reply here as well. :cool:

With respect to cloning, you are confusing science fact with science fiction. No one is cloning human babies in the same way that cloned animals are produced. This is illegal in all the countries that have the technology and money to do it and is outlawed by the UN. Human cloning by nuclear transfer is for the purpose of producing an early stage embryo which is then destroyed to obtain the embryonic stem cells within. These stem cells can then be used in therapeutic applications. (Even this, I might add, is banned in most countries.) It is not for the purpose of implanting the cloned embryo in a surrogate female and letting it develop to term. If you do not appreciate the difference between reproductive cloning and therapeutic cloning, then please ask for further explanations.

Similarly, it is not possible to genetically engineer an adult human like we can with laboratory model organisms. (For the purposes of genetic engineering, a baby human is essentially an “adult”.) The only examples of human genetic engineering are the few instances of successful gene therapy treatments. If you want further explanation, please ask.

But you are right in that society has been “engineering” the next generation to a very small extent in the sense that more and more we are choosing whether an embryo/fetus is to be born based on its traits. Pre-natal diagnosis has been available for a long time via ultrasound. This technique enables gross developmental defects to be detected and sometimes people choose to abort the fetus as a result. It also allows the early detection of repairable defects that would otherwise cause the early death of the child. For instance, in utero heart surgery on a baby is possible. More recently, genetic pre-natal diagnosis has been able to detect a range of genetic diseases and susceptibilities in unborn fetuses. Sometimes people choose to abort the fetus as a result, other times it provides valuable lifestyle indicators that limit, or prevent, the effects of the disease.

In fact, it has gone even further than that. I am aware of at least a couple of publicized instances of in vitro genetic screening of pre-implantation embryos. In other words, embryos were created by IVF, screened for desirable genetic factors, and only those embryos that were ‘acceptable’ were implanted into the female. As far as I am aware, all these instances were cases were the parents had an existing child in need of a bone marrow transplant in order to survive, so they had another child via in vitro genetic screening of pre-implantation embryos so that the new child would be a suitable genetic match for the existing child. Umbilical cord stem cells from the new "screened" child were then transplanted into the existing child’s bone marrow.

As far as I am concerned, this is all well and good and acceptable. The issue that society will face in the near future is to what extent it will be permissible to reject such pre-implantation embryos and to abort fetuses. As our knowledge of genetics grows, it will be possible for us to determine “non-essential” physical traits, not just the presence of life-threatening genetic diseases. We will be able to determine whether an embryo in a dish or a fetus in the womb will grow into a person with good sporting ability, or musical ability, or blonde hair, or be tall, or short, or violent, or short-sighted etc etc etc. Parents will want to start making decisions based on these traits. This is the situation explored in the movie ‘Gattaca (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/)’ (very well in my opinion). Society will face some interesting ethical choices in the very near future. :eek: <P>

...We will be able to determine whether an embryo in a dish or a fetus in the womb will grow into a person with good sporting ability, or musical ability, or blonde hair, or be tall, or short, or violent, or short-sighted etc etc etc. Parents will want to start making decisions based on these traits. ...I think you are correct on this and I also expect it will get society in a lot of trouble, if widely practiced. Less sophisticated methods, including even "post birth" selection, especially in some Asian countries, already have caused social problems with an excess male to female ratio, including stealing women to sell as brides etc.

and yes you can "pinpoint" your self, your life and existance blah blah. It's your brain. Everything you are is in the brain.

Don't get me wrong, I think that all life is life...and greatly respect it.

But surely the brain could not be just me...if i could just download my brain and consiousness onto a computer, i would not be the same person....parts of my body effect my feelings and how i function also...hormones, hunger, pain, and so on...

And the brian is very dynamic, as is your whole body. Cells are constantly dying, and every cell is replaced sometime with things you take in from food, air, etc. So eventually, every cell in your brain will be replaced and it will be a completly different physical object, and will keep on changing. And while we keep changing as human beings, we keep the same identity for a long time. So how can this changing, dynamic physical object house an identity that never changes?

And where did you get this idea that it doesn't change????
:-)

parts of my body effect my feelings and how i function also...hormones, hunger, pain, and so on...
very true... although many hormones are controlled by the brain. The pituitary gland (master gland) is in the brain, and that releases hormones that in turn release other hormones, etc. I THINK (key word: think) most of the hormones that affect mood and your personality and stuff are ultimately controlled by the brain.
And the brian is very dynamic, as is your whole body
and so is personality. I know I'm not the same person as I was when I was a little kid. Personalities change. And even if "we keep the same identity for a long time", it still changes.
Cells are constantly dying, and every cell is replaced sometime with things you take in from food, air, etc. So eventually, every cell in your brain will be replaced and it will be a completly different physical object, and will keep on changing
not true. Neurones are not replaced. You're born with the most number of neurons you will ever have. What DOES change is the dendrite connections. New ones are always being made, reinforced, and wither away.
So how can this changing, dynamic physical object house an identity that never changes?
Even if they WERE replaced, your personality and stuff is an emergent property. It doesn't matter if the individual cells are replaced, because the thing as a whole remains the same. It's like when you have a house and you slowly restore it and end up with a "whole new house", it's still the same house, it's just made out of newer things.

And you can't possibly deny the fact that we forget, that people's mental abilities (I don't mean their knowledge, I mean their memory and response time, etc) decrease as they age (after 21 I think), that if you harm a part of your brain that your personality/emotions/memories/etc. change, etc. That's all proof that you ARE your brain.

not true. Neurones are not replaced. You're born with the most number of neurons you will ever have.
No, that’s not correct. That old dogma was thrown out about 5 years ago. We now know that there at least two areas of the mammalian brain that undergo constant neurogenesis throughout life – the subventricular zone (SVZ) of the lateral ventricle and the dentate gyrus subgranular zone (SGZ) of the hippocampus. Furthermore, there is evidence that there are neural stem cells throughout the CNS of the adult that are capable of a low level of proliferation. <P>