people common we all know every government is corrupt, they just take money from us to spend on what they like, its not a fare system, they win we lose its as simple as that, we dont need the organisation that is in charge, they need us, the people, they need our tax money and they spend most of it on there military, they dotn actually care about our lives, they just care about there immage and there pockets. i will go into alot further detail as to why the government is corrupt i will do it with facts and no aggression so keep this calm please, no patriotic idiots, or people cursing presidents personally, talking about governments in general like UK/ USA Canada etc..



A) the government in the USA claims they want people to cut down on the gun crime, but they sell guns everywhere, and its not hard for a kid to get one, the governemt are the arms dealers they profit from it alot. if they want less gun crime dont sell guns.


B) the government claims they genuinly care about our health, so why would they profit millions each year from ciggeretts sales, if they actually cared they would ban the sale of them in stores. and if you say it would just be smuggled anyway black market etc, well what about weed then why cant you smoke that?, weed isnt as bad for you as all those chemicals in cigeretts. they put drug dealers in jail not because they care for people who are smoking the weeds health, they do it because its outlawed already and they dont get profit from its sale, and if you say well they do it because the effects of weed on people, well if everybody was smoking weed there would be less violence then everybody drinking alcohole, so the reasons they give are false they lie to much and everybody is fooled by it, i know Duendy knows what im talking about,






i will get down to point C) D) etc at a later point after some replies.


peace

Since power corrupts, shouldn't we ask ourselves 'is the proper state of one in power being corrupt'? Things always seem to flow that way nomatter what anyone does or does not do, so perhaps thats how things should be.

After that, the question that presents itself is 'how do we make this fact work to the advantage of the individual and the people as a whole'? It should be possible. After all, every corrupt and power hungry person wants something to control and, if they are smart, they should want what they can control to bloom and prosper. More prosperity for them in the end.

The system should be rigged, not for some feeble hope to prevent any trace of corruption, but to make what corruption does occur work for the good of the system. Even while someone is lineing their pockets, it should be making things stronger if things are built right. A campaign line or company slogan which I would wish to hear would be '[i]we will exploit you for every dime you have, but you will be richer for it[i]'.

Alas, we have not gotten beyond the rudiments of such a system so far and even then only in the capitalistic economy.

Forgive me if this post is getting rather strange. It is the inevitable result of too much scotch.

Governments may be BS and corrupt, but they are necissarry. Especially in the modern world.

A) the government in the USA claims they want people to cut down on the gun crime, but they sell guns everywhere, and its not hard for a kid to get one, the governemt are the arms dealers they profit from it alot. if they want less gun crime dont sell guns.


B) the government claims they genuinly care about our health, so why would they profit millions each year from ciggeretts sales, if they actually cared they would ban the sale of them in stores. and if you say it would just be smuggled anyway black market etc, well what about weed then why cant you smoke that?, weed isnt as bad for you as all those chemicals in cigeretts. they put drug dealers in jail not because they care for people who are smoking the weeds health, they do it because its outlawed already and they dont get profit from its sale, and if you say well they do it because the effects of weed on people, well if everybody was smoking weed there would be less violence then everybody drinking alcohole, so the reasons they give are false they lie to much and everybody is fooled by it, i know Duendy knows what im talking about,






i will get down to point C) D) etc at a later point after some replies.


peace

A)because they amount of money made from arms sales is sick and the government doesnt want to loose a significant part of the economy.

B)they keep increasing the price of cigarettes to try to make people stop without it becoming a "nanny state" issue,also i think a fair proportion of taxes from cigarettes go into the nhs to cope with all the smokers dying horribly. a reason i heard weed is illeagle was because the plants can be used to make oil and rope/stringy products and it was banned at a time when the nylon/petrochemical industries were booming in america through pressure from those companies as they would have lost significant profits and a fair proportion of the rest of the world followed suit.(not sure how true this is but seems to make some kind of sense)

Yeah, sure.

Let's move along. This is the same guy who said science is BS.

What I find so odd, so interesting, in the USA is that all of the voters know that politicians are mostly corrupt and selfish and greedy. Yet, every year, they, "the people", vote the same bastards back into office AGAIN!? If they're so crooked, why not try someone else at the next election? Why keep the same people in the senate and the house year after year, yet continually complain about how crooked they are?

Term limits for senators and representatives is the only way to cut back on the rampant greed and corruption in the government. New blood, younger blood ...they'll still be "somewhat" greedy and corrupt, but they won't have the power base like some of the old, long-established senators and reps we have now.

Baron Max

people common we all know every government is corrupt, they just take money from us to spend on what they like, its not a fare system, they win we lose its as simple as that, we dont need the organisation that is in charge, they need us, the people, they need our tax money and they spend most of it on there military, they dotn actually care about our lives, they just care about there immage and there pockets. i will go into alot further detail as to why the government is corrupt i will do it with facts and no aggression so keep this calm please, no patriotic idiots, or people cursing presidents personally, talking about governments in general like UK/ USA Canada etc..



A) the government in the USA claims they want people to cut down on the gun crime, but they sell guns everywhere, and its not hard for a kid to get one, the governemt are the arms dealers they profit from it alot. if they want less gun crime dont sell guns.


B) the government claims they genuinly care about our health, so why would they profit millions each year from ciggeretts sales, if they actually cared they would ban the sale of them in stores. and if you say it would just be smuggled anyway black market etc, well what about weed then why cant you smoke that?, weed isnt as bad for you as all those chemicals in cigeretts. they put drug dealers in jail not because they care for people who are smoking the weeds health, they do it because its outlawed already and they dont get profit from its sale, and if you say well they do it because the effects of weed on people, well if everybody was smoking weed there would be less violence then everybody drinking alcohole, so the reasons they give are false they lie to much and everybody is fooled by it, i know Duendy knows what im talking about,






i will get down to point C) D) etc at a later point after some replies.


peace

Very well, let's just assume for the moment that you are correct and that, as you seem to be saying, they should be eliminated.

What would be your alternative?

The very first nation that abolishes it's government and therefore it's military organization as well, is in immediate danger of being overrun by another country that did no do so. Is that what you want? It would be a natural response. Crime would run rampant because there would also be no police to maintain law and no courts to mantain order. Is that what you want, too?

So, again - just WHAT would you suggest as an alternative to having a government.

(It's pretty obvious to me and others here that you've not spent any effort in trying to think this through.)

Yeah, sure.

Let's move along. This is the same guy who said science is BS.



when did i say science was BS i just said they dont know everything i like science in alot of ways. and why say move along when this is a good issue to discuss and relevent to politics,



peace

Hmmm, reminds me of a particular quote:

"The checks and balances of a democratic government were invented only because human beings realized how unfit they are to govern themselves." - Helios, Deus Ex

How very true!

Guns and weed, and all governments are corrupt? Tell you what is corrupt, though. The state of our public education system. Empty and duendy go to school for 12 years and don't even learn about punctuation.

i didnt go to school for 12 years i went to juvi and missed the latter part of my schooling, but i hve qualifications but only in the health and fitness industry. and my punctuation/grammer on this forum is very bad i know but i try to make my points clear.



peace.

i didnt go to school for 12 years i went to juvi and missed the latter part of my schooling, but i hve qualifications but only in the health and fitness industry. and my punctuation/grammer on this forum is very bad i know but i try to make my points clear.
peace.

Hello, Mr. Chi,

I have no problems with your punctuation/grammar. The only ones that I do have problems with on that score are plain lazy typers like Duendy and those like Rabon who claim to be a genius but cannot even spell common words that anyone with just six years of basic schooling can handle easily. ;)

Personally, I find your points quite clear. :)

But I still have my question for you in this thread that you haven't addressed yet. Yes, I agree that governments are far from perfect, but what do you suggest as an alternative?

Most Americans do not want marijuana legalized, anyhow. Most voting Americans.

Hello, Mr. Chi,

I have no problems with your punctuation/grammar. The only ones that I do have problems with on that score are plain lazy typers like Duendy and those like Rabon who claim to be a genius but cannot even spell common words that anyone with just six years of basic schooling can handle easily. ;)

Personally, I find your points quite clear. :)

But I still have my question for you in this thread that you haven't addressed yet. Yes, I agree that governments are far from perfect, but what do you suggest as an alternative?



sorry for not answering light, i personally think if all power was turned over to me and my select group of people to run a modern country, i could improve the usa so much and england, i would a) reduce crime b) reduce the amount of smokers c) stop alot of the anti social behaviour d) help the people who need help most more e) wouldent blatently lie tot he public, f) let the public participate alot more in how the country is run, g) spend the budget more wisely h) improve the educational system a hell of alot, i would do alot more aswell i dont want to get into the reasons why i would be better in this very post but i will soon if you are interested in logic behind my claims, but to be honest its not hard to improve things it just takes risk.


peace

sorry for not answering light, i personally think if all power was turned over to me and my select group of people to run a modern country, i could improve the usa so much and england, i would a) reduce crime b) reduce the amount of smokers c) stop alot of the anti social behaviour d) help the people who need help most more e) wouldent blatently lie tot he public, f) let the public participate alot more in how the country is run, g) spend the budget more wisely h) improve the educational system a hell of alot, i would do alot more aswell i dont want to get into the reasons why i would be better in this very post but i will soon if you are interested in logic behind my claims, but to be honest its not hard to improve things it just takes risk.


peace


how would you do a) b) c) d) f) g) h)?

Most Americans do not want marijuana legalized, anyhow. Most voting Americans.


yes but what about the millions that do? why can you smoke cigs in public but not weed whats the diff?.

if you speak of weed effects on the body what about alcohole that makes people alot more violent putting many at risk.

ive had to fight many people who were bieng violent and aggressive when drunk, and ive had to really hurt people just because there tanked up, and iive seen stupid things happen because of alcohole alot worse than people who just smoke weed.

peace

how would you do a) b) c) d) f) g) h)?


i knew someone would ask this right now, as i said before i will get into it in high detail when i have my thoughts gathered and sources all perfectly down, just wait good things take time, i will put forward a real case with evidence of the governments neglect to our society, and how it could e improved without bieng hard ont he pocket.


peace

i knew someone would ask this right now, as i said before i will get into it in high detail when i have my thoughts gathered and sources all perfectly down, just wait good things time, i will put forward a real case with evidence of the governments neglect to our society, and how it could e improved without bieng hard ont he pocket.


peace

i will be very interested to read it.

yeah i think many people will and i wont be harsh or out of line i will put it forward calmly and orderly, hope everyone can read my writings without bieng bias and repy with logic fact and reason.

if we are always to settle for what we got as a society, how can there be revolution and progress?.

peace

yeah i think many people will and i wont be harsh or out of line i will put it forward calmly and orderly, hope everyone can read my writings without bieng bias and repy with logic fact and reason.

peace


haha,you can be sure that wont happen.what is more likely to happen is someone will find something wrong with one sentence and the rest of the thread will be spent debating said sentence.

i will be sticking to the subject with full effort, anyone who nit picks will be seen by everyone with a calm and productive attitude, and if people have to pick at the smaller picture then it just shows you that there main argument has no legs to stand on.


peace.

i will be sticking to the subject with full effort, anyone who nit picks will be seen by everyone with a calm and productive attitude, and if people have to pick at the smaller picture then it just shows you that there main argument has no legs to stand on.


peace.


ok,good luck then.

thanks

What is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.
James Madison
The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern.
Lord Acton
Of course governments are corrupt. They always will be so long as humans are in charge of them. The best you can do is to try to limit the damage government can cause by limiting the power of government. Once you've made this realization, you're halfway to becoming a conservative.

Our government started getting corrupted soon after it's inception. To fix it, of coarse we'll need a revolution. :D And after we win that, then something radical. Don't know how it would work exactly, but I vote for all gov offices to be open to the press and public cameras. Hey, we pay their wages, right? No secret meetings except in rare cases when real national security matters could be proved. Any violation would carry severe penalties. That would be a start.

Peace

The trouble with Revolutions is that they only involve part of society. The American Revolution was essentially a middle-class (or merchant-class) overthrow of the upper-class who were running the place at the time. The really poor people didn't profit from it all that much.

The really poor people didn't profit from it all that much.

Ye're right, of course. But then, do the really poor people EVER profit from any revolution? In all of human history? I don't think so.

Baron Max

Wasn't the French Revolution an example of the poor rising up and stomping the shit out of the aristocrats?

i will be sticking to the subject with full effort, anyone who nit picks will be seen by everyone with a calm and productive attitude, and if people have to pick at the smaller picture then it just shows you that there main argument has no legs to stand on.
peace.

Then I'll stay right on subject with you. ;)

You've now had plente of time to consolidate your thoughts and tell us what would be the alternative to government. Please note that even when you did start to address that (with your a), b), c), etc.), you didn't actually suggest a change in the government, just some policy issues and not the actual government itself which you left completely intact.

About government systems:
Different governments work in different environments. For example, Rome, as a city-state or as a regional power, controlling just Italy, it's Republican System worked marvelously. It was when they started expanding into Northern Africa and Spain and Gaul that it got corrupt and collapsed into anarchy.
After that, an absolutist sytem replaced it, which can more easily govern a larger expanse. Under that system the Roman Empire flourished and laster nearly 500 years.
Same reason why the democratic system in the united states worked uncorrupted for only a bout 30 or so years. After that, it just became corrupted by partisan politicking and political parties too much. It still works, but not as it was meant to.
It all depends on the factors and the environment of the nation involved, I guess.

Where we claim to live in democracies, we cannot fail to inform ourselves, and we cannot fail to participate in the political process, and then justifiably cry "bullshit". The only sure cure for corruption and deceit in government is an engaged, activist public. An atrophied democracy, populated by an ignorant and apathetic public will always, inevitably be hijacked by deceivers.

The only sure cure for corruption and deceit in government is an engaged, activist public. An atrophied democracy, populated by an ignorant and apathetic public will always, inevitably be hijacked by deceivers.

While I agree with you in principle ...perhaps you can further expain how any one voter in the USA could possibly know all that's needed to know in order to know HOW to run the nation, as well as how to operate on a global scale?

People just can't know all that's needed to know ..and to think so is being terribly naive. And that's the very reason why we have representatives and state senators ...to advise us and help us on those issues.

But I'd also daresay that most people can't even know what's needed to operate even on a state level! Most people, voters, couldn't even operate a decent 7-11, yet we expect them to know how to operate an entire state? An entire nation?

Baron Max

I did not mean to infer that one voter is likely to save the day. As to our representatives being of a higher caste, or better imformed than the constituency, that's just stupid. The issues that a transparent and responsible government deals with are not hard for the public to understand. A heirarchy of confidences and knowledge that you offer as inseparable from the democratic process- that flawed concept is to me the source of the confusion. IMO if the majority can't understand an issue, then a truly democratic government may not act on it until they do. This fundamental democratic concept requires leadership to inform the public in many cases, but not to act without considered consent because Papa knows best.

Baron, if you would spend a little time with Jefferson (http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0500.htm) and Paine (http://www.ushistory.org/paine/reason/), this might become clearer to you.

"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power." -Jefferson