the existence of the universe and all that dwell within its dimension/s should not exist,

it apparently does though, and i find it ammusing and fascinating, physical laws and rules apparently cannot apply to the creation of the universe, due to the impossibility of nothing into something,

the only explanation is infinity, an energy that had no start and will have no end, just endless transformation and change,

the foundation of structure is "formless structure" the empty force/the dao,
the formless existence exists to create the form we see before us,

and how can something exist forever and have no start or end you ask? well if we step out of our logical thinking proccess for just a moment i will explain,


the key i believe is time, time is a bi-product of the human consciousness and brain, time does not exist in physical form whatsoever, it has no impact on the true nature of the universe,

now if time does not exist then there is no beggining or end, there is just existence, we cannot compare our mortal comparrisons to the true nature of existence and the universes creation, because i do not believe that it applys on the same level of comprehension and understanding,


now if we dismiss the idea of time it is a little more easy to understand my theory, if we have no starting or ending point then we only have a central point, (or no point atall maybe?) and timeless existence needs no (birth) and has no (death) just endless possibility of change, evolution and transformation,


peace.

i completely agree

the existence of the universe and all that dwell within its dimension/s should not exist
SHOULD not? Why not?

the only explanation is infinity, an energy that had no start and will have no end, just endless transformation and change
Infinity is an energy?

the foundation of structure is "formless structure" the empty force/the dao,the formless existence exists to create the form we see before us
What's a "dao"? Where does it fit in the table of known particles?

the key i believe is time, time is a bi-product of the human consciousness and brain
So there was no time before humans became conscious? Nothing aged or altered?

time does not exist in physical form whatsoever, it has no impact on the true nature of the universe
Except that the universe was already aging before we developed consciousness.

now if we dismiss the idea of time it is a little more easy to understand my theory, if we have no starting or ending point then we only have a central point, (or no point atall maybe?) and timeless existence needs no (birth) and has no (death) just endless possibility of change, evolution and transformation
But before there were humans to "create" time as a "by-product" of their minds then everything would be at your central point with no birth etc. So how did we get born?
Time is a way of delineating the rate of change, so if you have endless change you have endless time, no?

the existence of the universe and all that dwell within its dimension/s should not exist,




Why shouldn't this exist? 'Unlikely to' is very different from 'shouldn't'

Why shouldn't this exist? 'Unlikely to' is very different from 'shouldn't'
Unlikely? I predict the chances of the existence of the universe is 100% (just a top-of-my-head figure though).

the existence of the universe and all that dwell within its dimension/s should not exist,

Shouldn't? Perhaps you mis-spoke. Why "shouldn't"?

it apparently does though, and i find it ammusing and fascinating, physical laws and rules apparently cannot apply to the creation of the universe, due to the impossibility of nothing into something,

I think it's fair to say that "nothing" is simply off the mark. I think that particular "nothing" must have been "something" that is generally beyond the scope of comprehension. The best approximation of what that "nothing" may have been in my own comprehension is: potential or possibility.

the only explanation is infinity, an energy that had no start and will have no end, just endless transformation and change,

Infinity is no explanation from my perspective. Infinite what? Time? Well time is apparently linked to space. Space-time? Well apparently there's not an infinity of that if at one point it would seem it didn't exist, so to speak. Existence loses its meaning in the context of "the beginning", given that there was nothing in which to do so as far as we can conceive of it.

the foundation of structure is "formless structure" the empty force/the dao,
the formless existence exists to create the form we see before us,

That seems like gobbledy-goop to me. Are you high? Lol. The foundation of structure would seem to me to be the miniscule. Actually, the foundation of structure is mind. Mind conceives of such a thing. The tao simply is. It has no "structure" per se. It just does what it does. It is the perfect expression of function. It is by by its very nature, incapable of flaw.

and how can something exist forever and have no start or end you ask?

"forever" as in "time" is a very human notion. That's not to say there is no universal basis for it, but that the result of the basis is a human concoction.

well if we step out of our logical thinking proccess for just a moment i will explain,

Oh I see, you're being illogical on purpose? :P

the key i believe is time, time is a bi-product of the human consciousness and brain, time does not exist in physical form whatsoever, it has no impact on the true nature of the universe,

Why? What egotistical whimsy has you spouting on about the nature of the dao? You should know that makes you a very, very bad daoist... not that you care, but still. It is the nature of the tao that it cannot be spoken of directly.

now if time does not exist then there is no beggining or end, there is just existence, we cannot compare our mortal comparrisons to the true nature of existence and the universes creation, because i do not believe that it applys on the same level of comprehension and understanding,

But isn't there existence whether or not time exists? Aren't you comparing your mortal comparison to the true nature of the universes creation by stating that time doesn't exist? Do you understand the notion of space-time and spatial dimensions clearly enough to determine the implications of your statement? Do you think this model of yours makes any sense? Do you think it's more than a model?

now if we dismiss the idea of time it is a little more easy to understand my theory, if we have no starting or ending point then we only have a central point, (or no point atall maybe?) and timeless existence needs no (birth) and has no (death) just endless possibility of change, evolution and transformation,

But if there is no time, there can be no change. Ya know? Change requires time in which it may occur.

What utility does this "model" serve? How does it enable further research or a greater comprehension to you or others?

Talked about that maaaaany times... :rolleyes:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53990

This is what you said here...
you know this is strange, i was just about to start a thread on this exact matter, and then i found this, thanks for the time saver,

anyway, yes i agree its not logical for existence to exist atall, the universe shouldent be here, and i cant come up with a real reason of my own as to why anything exists, for a single atom or molecule to exist, for any force energy or anything atall to exist, it dosent make sense, even if you say "god did it" well why does god exist (if a god does) theres no logical reason for a god to exist either,


the riddle of all riddles,


the unseen force, the dao, it dosent physicaly exist, yet it holds form to everythign we see before us,

i give this rough theory forward,

this universe that we are in is not how the real universe/reality works, i think we are all greatly missguided tot he true nature of things, we know only our fish bowl of thoughts and concepts,

i say this universe is a mere fragment of something much greater and logical, everything we know maybe false, and our knowledge dosent apply tot he real reality that created our universe,

i say something outside of this dimension/universe created our current universe that we study, it must be an outside source of somekind, you cannot fill a baloon up with the air thats already inside the baloon,
you must use an outside source to accomplish fillng it with enough air to form shape,


(crude yes i know)


peace.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53991

the existence of the universe and all that dwell within its dimension/s should not exist,

it apparently does though, and i find it ammusing and fascinating, physical laws and rules apparently cannot apply to the creation of the universe, due to the impossibility of nothing into something,

the only explanation is infinity, an energy that had no start and will have no end, just endless transformation and change,

the foundation of structure is "formless structure" the empty force/the dao,
the formless existence exists to create the form we see before us,

and how can something exist forever and have no start or end you ask? well if we step out of our logical thinking proccess for just a moment i will explain,


the key i believe is time, time is a bi-product of the human consciousness and brain, time does not exist in physical form whatsoever, it has no impact on the true nature of the universe,

now if time does not exist then there is no beggining or end, there is just existence, we cannot compare our mortal comparrisons to the true nature of existence and the universes creation, because i do not believe that it applys on the same level of comprehension and understanding,


now if we dismiss the idea of time it is a little more easy to understand my theory, if we have no starting or ending point then we only have a central point, (or no point atall maybe?) and timeless existence needs no (birth) and has no (death) just endless possibility of change, evolution and transformation,


peace.

It should, because it does. The universe is not an impossible anomaly.

the key i believe is time, time is a bi-product of the human consciousness and brain, time does not exist in physical form whatsoever, it has no impact on the true nature of the universe,

This just gave me a great idea. Let me work it out and I may post about it, whether or not I feel it merits discussion :bugeye:

You do realize, "should" and "shouldnt" are human concepts. Show me a place in the universe where events and things are uncertain as to their being. Things either exist with definite properties, or they do not. Existance is far before your human judgement and justification; it cant be justified. Existance preceeds (other things, rather famously, see Sartre) Justification. If what you are saying is that the seeming-laws of the universe suggest that the way things exist isnt "right", well, youre not looking closely enough. Even correctness and incorrectness do not exist outside of human reality. As has been stated, things either exist, or not. Things either happen, or they do not. There is no force in nature trying to arbitrate wether it has taken the correct course, because it cant do anything BUT take the correct course. You are wise to believe that all things are causal, so tell me, where does reflection play into that? When you set up a row of dominos in an orderly fashion, and flick the first one, its pretty obvious whats going to happen, they dont need your judgement to fall over one by one in an orderly way.
If what youre talking about is the creation of the universe, the events and things existing at its very begining, look at it this way: given an relatively tiny, (perhaps even singular) set of principles and relations, there are certain outcomes given space and time, in other words, given that gravity is a definite variable, and so are the force of your flicking finger and the masses and friction coefficents and distances between those dominos are all given, specific, unchanging variables, independant variables, there are really only so many things that can happen, depending on those variables. If you liken the begining of the universe to those dominos, given certain amounts of force, time, mass, space, etc, there are definite, perfectly causal things that will happen. One of those things is me typing this now and having it posted.
As for your conception that time only exists in the human brain, think again. Although the nature of the begining and end of time are certainly uncertain, do you really believe that if this tiny little planet were to cease existing in an instant, the universe would grind to a halt? Further, the brain, as the location of consciousness and the processor of whatever vile and tortured and warped information (as compared to the unknowable Real of the existance of things) we gather from the universe, really dosent have any special equiptment to "create" something as universal as time. Sure, the senses dont allow us perfect and full acess to reality. But what youre trying to do is place human conception above reality. In other words, we grasp and struggle to understand what facets of Things we can, it isnt the other way around, where we are the ones assining properties to Things.
Hope my post gets you to think about it anew...

thats it,, one word: solipcism.

You do realize, "should" and "shouldnt" are human concepts. Show me a place in the universe where events and things are uncertain as to their being. Things either exist with definite properties, or they do not. Existance is far before your human judgement and justification; it cant be justified. Existance preceeds (other things, rather famously, see Sartre) Justification. If what you are saying is that the seeming-laws of the universe suggest that the way things exist isnt "right", well, youre not looking closely enough. Even correctness and incorrectness do not exist outside of human reality. As has been stated, things either exist, or not. Things either happen, or they do not. There is no force in nature trying to arbitrate wether it has taken the correct course, because it cant do anything BUT take the correct course. You are wise to believe that all things are causal, so tell me, where does reflection play into that? When you set up a row of dominos in an orderly fashion, and flick the first one, its pretty obvious whats going to happen, they dont need your judgement to fall over one by one in an orderly way.
If what youre talking about is the creation of the universe, the events and things existing at its very begining, look at it this way: given an relatively tiny, (perhaps even singular) set of principles and relations, there are certain outcomes given space and time, in other words, given that gravity is a definite variable, and so are the force of your flicking finger and the masses and friction coefficents and distances between those dominos are all given, specific, unchanging variables, independant variables, there are really only so many things that can happen, depending on those variables. If you liken the begining of the universe to those dominos, given certain amounts of force, time, mass, space, etc, there are definite, perfectly causal things that will happen. One of those things is me typing this now and having it posted.
As for your conception that time only exists in the human brain, think again. Although the nature of the begining and end of time are certainly uncertain, do you really believe that if this tiny little planet were to cease existing in an instant, the universe would grind to a halt? Further, the brain, as the location of consciousness and the processor of whatever vile and tortured and warped information (as compared to the unknowable Real of the existance of things) we gather from the universe, really dosent have any special equiptment to "create" something as universal as time. Sure, the senses dont allow us perfect and full acess to reality. But what youre trying to do is place human conception above reality. In other words, we grasp and struggle to understand what facets of Things we can, it isnt the other way around, where we are the ones assining properties to Things.
Hope my post gets you to think about it anew...

Great post. My thoughts exactly --although you saved me the struggle of putting my thoughts into a coherent flow of words.

i meant shouldent exist in our terms of logic and laws of physics,

it obviously does exist ofcourse :), but i am saying by the laws that we think govern the universe and existence, the universe goes against physical laws,


sorry for the missunderstanding,


peace,

i meant shouldent exist in our terms of logic and laws of physics,

it obviously does exist ofcourse :), but i am saying by the laws that we think govern the universe and existence, the universe goes against physical laws,


sorry for the missunderstanding,


peace,


Referring to Thats it's post --
it just means that either you're not looking close enough, or that the logic and laws are incomplete (or wrong).

I of course entirely agree with wes, "potential or possibility", refers to the exact defination of the "nothing" or the, rather the "nothing" that doesn't exist.

So, I don't see what you're talking about.,
thou it's a good thread for discussion of that.

so many threads like this already...

what about the rain forrests?
:D