doesnt that sound a little intimidating?

Holy Crap

Wow! A lot of people responded to this stupid post. Anyway, I just wanted to make it clear that I did not post this. It was by the user soundsystim01. he just posted it under my name...

so... ya...

Not really. And if his love was infinate wouldn't he let me abuse him and still bring me into heaven because he couldn't stand to see me burn?

Just another example of the irrational though process that is organized religion.

The punishment definitely does not fit the "crime" and what a crime it is...........Thinking

eternal hell awaits anyone who questions gods infinite love

This untrue. Eternal hell awaits anyone who does not
accept God's love. Besides, without God's love you are
already in hell.

Originally posted by okinrus
This untrue. Eternal hell awaits anyone who does not
accept God's love. Besides, without God's love you are
already in hell.

______

Absolutely NOT.

The threat of spending eternity in eternal torment is reserved for those who do not buy into a particular religious belief, be it Christianity or some other one.

It has nothing to do with love on any level.

The threat comes from a primitive desire for revenge against your enemies on the part of the early Christians. They were impotent against the Romans, so they made up stories where anyone who didn't accept their religion would be punished by God.

Have to give this possibility the same degree of credibility as Peter's claim that the world would end while some of the people who heard Jesus preach were still alive.

In other words, zero.

First you have to invent a God, and then you call anyone who doesn't fall down on their knees and accept your God's love a sinner or a heretic or whatever name you're using this week, but it isn't a very logical position.

God loves everyone, but any human who rejects Christ will be cast into a fiery pit...

How would you feel if you saw a Catholic priest hold the hand of a 9 year-old boy against a hot oven until all the flesh and muscle burned away down to the bone?

Isn't that what Christians accuse God of doing to non-christians?

You need to use some logic and not just parrot the dogma.

Originally posted by Baba O'Riley
doesnt that sound a little intimidating?
"Primates often have trouble imagining a
universe not run by an angry alpha male."
-Anonymous

RileyWiles since why do you think that you can tell me what I believe?


It has nothing to do with love on any level.

Well this is funny. Do you mind if I quote some of the
Holy Scripture?
"Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word of God"

John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life."

John 15:9
"As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. "I have told you this so that you and your joy might be complete. This is my commandment: love one another as I love you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father. It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. This I command you: love one another."


The threat comes from a primitive desire for revenge against your enemies on the part of the early Christians. They were impotent against the Romans, so they made up stories where anyone who didn't accept their religion would be punished by God.

Oh really. Actually quite a few Christians were Romans.

RileyWins it is Satan that wishes us to burn in hell. If we do not choose God and sin intentionally against our concience then we have choosed Satan over God. Without God's love we are nothing and that is hell.

Originally posted by okinrus
RileyWiles since why do you think that you can tell me what I believe?


RileyWins it is Satan that wishes us to burn in hell. If we do not choose God and sin intentionally against our concience then we have choosed Satan over God. Without God's love we are nothing and that is hell.
______

If I straighten you out on the facts, and not let you get away with parroting the Sunday School version of the facts,

then you'll see that I'm right.

Jesus never claimed to be God.

Peter was a con man who elevated Jesus to a semi-divinity, the same way the Roman senate elevated Caesar, and thus gave Augustus right to use the title "son of theos" or "son of God."

But "theos" meant something different than our idea of God.

"theos" included the spirits of humans who had ascended and joined with God after they died. Including many others than Caesar and Jesus, a whole list of deified Romans.

Riley you are out of your mind. I'm starting to think there might be a deeper reason to why you fear exorcisms...

This untrue. Eternal hell awaits anyone who does not accept God's love. Besides, without God's love you are already in hell.
tell that to buddhist peope who are the happiest people on earth. try telling that to me and i'll laugh at you because i don't see how i'm in hell. god does not have infinite love. the bible's description of god is so flawed that it takes some serious faith (and by faith i mean ignoring what's around us and believing in a book written in parts that makes absolutely no sense most of the time) to believe in the christian god. that's my view anyway. and the people who pervey god's word aren't any better. this is from personal experience so don't try and argue this with me either.

"Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word of God"
what does this mean? it, in my view means that the very words in the bible are absolute. not open to question. literal. besides, how does the rest of the mammialian world live without the word of god? to my knowledge they live quite contently. on food no less.

and okinrus, i have to ask, do you want to go to heaven? because heaven is forever and there is no excitement up there, so boredom is forever and that is not something i myself would want to experience.

If we do not choose God and sin intentionally against our concience then we have choosed Satan over God. Without God's love we are nothing and that is hell.
well apparently i'm without god's love and i'm sitting here, writing a reply to you and therefore i am not nothing. i do not "sin" if sinning is going against the ten commandments. i have not choosen satan over god as i believe in neither. if god had infinite love, he wouldn't let people burn in hell just because they had a problem with those that preached his word, because as i understand it, god is also infinitely understanding.

tell that to buddhist peope who are the happiest people on earth. try telling that to me and i'll laugh at you because i don't see how i'm in hell. god does not have infinite love. the bible's description of god is so flawed that it takes some serious faith (and by faith i mean ignoring what's around us and believing in a book written in parts that makes absolutely no sense most of the time) to believe in the christian god. that's my view anyway. and the people who pervey god's word aren't any better. this is from personal experience so don't try and argue this with me either.

When did I say buddhist people were going to hell?


what does this mean? it, in my view means that the very words in the bible are absolute. not open to question. literal. besides, how does the rest of the mammialian world live without the word of god? to my knowledge they live quite contently. on food no less.

and okinrus, i have to ask, do you want to go to heaven? because heaven is forever and there is no excitement up there, so boredom is forever and that is not something i myself would want to experience.

Of course I want to go to heaven, but best to worry about making this world heaven... The word of God is what God says: in the bible and within us. That is why Jesus said "The words I have spoken to you are of spirit and life". The flesh, physical bread, does not matter, but Jesus offers us the bread of life. Some are biologically alive but are spiritually dead.


well apparently i'm without god's love and i'm sitting here, writing a reply to you and therefore i am not nothing. i do not "sin" if sinning is going against the ten commandments. i have not choosen satan over god as i believe in neither. if god had infinite love, he wouldn't let people burn in hell just because they had a problem with those that preached his word, because as i understand it, god is also infinitely understanding.

No what Jesus means by "something" is good works. It is impossible to accomplish true goodness without God. Also you are assuming that you are without God's love which is not true.

When did I say buddhist people were going to hell?
um, you didn't, but because they don't believe in god, and god is supposed to be the source of all goodness, i was just wondering how they could be happier than the rest of us (read Buddhism= happiness if you don't believe me) and i thought that if you didn't believe on god you automatically went to hell (that's what i'm told by my christian buddies anyway).

Of course I want to go to heaven
but WHY? no-one gives me an answer when i ask them why they want to go to heaven.

Some are biologically alive but are spiritually dead.
i'm not sure how i would class spirituality or being spiritual. believing in something???

It is impossible to accomplish true goodness without God.
i have to disagree, there are some atheist people who've accomplished some very good things, and true goodness is perhaps only what one perceives as good. i know i have differences when it comes to things i think are great and my friends or family think otherwise.

Also you are assuming that you are without God's love which is not true.
i find that having some big guy out there that is looking out for you very appealing. unconditional love and the such is a nice idea, but i can't prescribe to it on mass terms. if i were to become religious i think it would be very personal, incorporate all that we don't know into things we haven't found out yet, the things we know and the idea of a deity out there into one entity, i could be apart of that- even though it would still be a personal thing that i wouldn't necesarily feel i have to share with others on a sunday morning.

um, you didn't, but because they don't believe in god, and god is supposed to be the source of all goodness, i was just wondering how they could be happier than the rest of us (read Buddhism= happiness if you don't believe me) and i thought that if you didn't believe on god you automatically went to hell (that's what i'm told by my christian buddies anyway).

Goodness is not just happyness but also will show itself outwardly. Some Buddhist do believe in God but it's more of a higher force type God. Not necessary automatic hell since no one can judge but Jesus. However what is certain is that you must put good ahead of selfish desires.


but WHY? no-one gives me an answer when i ask them why they want to go to heaven.

God is infinite joy.

Originally posted by okinrus


God is infinite joy.

If he's infinite joy then why is he always such a downer? And so many of his followers act like they've got barbed sticks shoved up their asses.

Hell is where it's at, man, there may be no AC but all of my favorite rock bands are going to be there.

John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

Isn't he basically saying "Eat me?" :D

JD

This just in, Jesus was delicious!

Hell is complete emptyness ... there will be no rock bands.


Isn't he basically saying "Eat me?"

His living flesh and body present in the bread so that he is within us and us within him. Its been the major source of debate between Catholics and non-catholics...

Originally posted by okinrus
His living flesh and body present in the bread so that he is within us and us within him. Its been the major source of debate between Catholics and non-catholics...

Ha, yeah, meanwhile millions starve while old men bicker about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin :p What's Theology good for?

...he is within us and us within him
Not me, that's for damn sure!:p
Could someone explain to me why these "god fearing" clowns need to justify their belief in god by telling the rest of us how bad we are? It just gives me a lower opinion of the person preaching and their religion. If god himself turned up & slapped me in the face, I still wouldn't believe.
I know I shouldn't follow these threads:), I can't help myself:confused:

Anyone who believes that a document, the scriptures, that has been handed down for many years by word of mouth, and then translated into several languages, by people who had their own axes to grind, is absolutely the truth, had better have their heads examined. Having read the bible many times, and becoming an ordained minister in an efort to understand it, I can only come to one conclusion, to wit: the most stolen tome to ever be published has many flaws, but if you only pay attention to the parts that you personally would like have others believe, ignoring the parts that don't agree with your own personal philosophy, then you can have a promising career as an evangelist. Go ahead and preach to the masses that are gullible enough to listen to you and send you the money that they so desperately need to live on, so you can buy new Rolls Royces and Rolex watches. I'll even tell you how to get your own evangelistic credentials, and declare yourself tax exempt, so that Uncle Sugar can't take any of it away from you, you heartless, self-centered, money grubbing ass-holes.:bugeye: Oh yes, as to the origional question, heaven and hell are only in your mind. If you truely believe that you are going to either one, then you will die with your beliefs intact. However, dont be surprised if you land somewhere else intirely.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Baba O'Riley
doesnt that sound a little intimidating?
No! It sounds like pure bullshit to me.

originally posted by me

but WHY? no-one gives me an answer when i ask them why they want to go to heaven.
then postedby okinrus
God is infinite joy.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!? honestly though, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GOING TO HEAVEN?!? man, no-one can answer my question straight. heaven would be ultra-boring (living for eternity without anyway to thrill yourself- exitment is derived from adrenalin(sp?) which is activated when you are in perceived danger or physical activity which might result in harm) and forever. who honestly would want to be subjected to such a horrible existance? no, actually i won't ask that because i'll never get an answer.

Originally posted by okinrus

Oh really. Actually quite a few Christians were Romans.

RileyWins it is Satan that wishes us to burn in hell. If we do not choose God and sin intentionally against our concience then we have choosed Satan over God.

Firstly, for quite some time, the majority of Romans were not Christians, but the relentless antagonists and nemeses of the early Church.

Secondly, some persons are conceived into this world totally unburdened by the awful onus of a conscience. Against what, exactly do they sin?

Originally posted by okinrus
Besides, without God's love you are
already in hell.

Human history can proffer up a lavish array of examples to contradict this claim.
Multitudinous individuals: hedonists, Epicureans, Stoics, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucists, have all subsisted on this earth, practicing their respective trades, relating to friend and foe, supping of the earth's vials, and gestating ideas expedient to human life, without ever giving regard to Christianity or its Savior.
I'm willing to wager that many amongst them were quite rapt and ebullient, however their nescience and subsequent noncompliance of the Christian Scourge.

Originally posted by okinrus
Riley you are out of your mind. I'm starting to think there might be a deeper reason to why you fear exorcisms...

Yes, Okinrus. Rileywins is definitely, indubitably, absolutley out of his mind.
He is overly agressive and habitually conflates biblical accounts with common historical postulates, afterward employing this misconstrued and esoteric version of events to depict Jesus as a scoundrel, demagogue, and fraud.

Yes, he is certainly off his rocker.


God is infinite joy.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!? honestly though, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH GOING TO HEAVEN?!? man, no-one can answer my question straight. heaven would be ultra-boring (living for eternity without anyway to thrill yourself- exitment is derived from adrenalin(sp?) which is activated when you are in perceived danger or physical activity which might result in harm) and forever.

What are you, a complete dunce?
Heaven would be an eternity spent in the presence of God, and, as Okinrus so brusquely indicated, GOD IS INFINITE JOY.

LOOK, DUMBASS: IF HEAVEN EXISTS, THEN WHEN YOU ARRIVE, ADRENALINE WON'T EVEN FLOW THROUGH YOUR BODY. YOU WOULDN'T EVEN POSSESS A CORPOREAL, OR FLESHY, FORM, YOU DUMB FUCK!
ADDITIONALLY, IF GOD WERE INFINITE HAPPINESS, WHICH IS THE PREMISE UPON WHICH I'M OPERATING, THEN YOU WOULDN'T BE CAPABLE OF FEELING ENNUI, BOREDOM, OR RESTLESSNESS IN HIS PRESENCE. SIMPLY BECAUSE GOD WOULD EMBODY FELICITY AND ECSTASY THEMSELVES PORTENDS THE NONEXISTENCE OF DISPLEASURE IN HEAVEN.
IN HEAVEN, YOU WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO FEEL BAD, YOU STUPID DICK.

:)

Originally posted by okinrus
Riley you are out of your mind. I'm starting to think there might be a deeper reason to why you fear exorcisms...
_____

I am not out of my mind.

That was a personal attack, rather than a discussion of the issues.

Try to stick to the questions raised.

Look, I'm trying to help you. It's not that I fear exorcisms.

It is simply that if you go to apply for a job, or have a conversation with intelligent people interested in science, and you make an accusation like "I think there's a deeper reason why you fear exorcisms," they're going to think you're an idiot.

And that's not a personal attack of any kind.

It's a warning that people will get a certain impression of you if you say certain things. Like accusing them of being afraid of the power of an exorcism or your... religious whatever.

NO, to be honest, when I discuss Christianity and the Bible with Christians, I try to bring up the verses about Exorcism at the beginning of the conversation. Because, most Christians - maybe not you, but most of them - are not aware that Jesus was described as having conversations with demons, and as soon as they read those verses, they get uneasy and start to wonder if their faith in the NT could be mistaken.

Because demons don't exist and exorcists are scam artists.

Originally posted by Redoubtable
Rileywins... habitually conflates biblical accounts with common historical postulates, afterward employing this misconstrued and esoteric version of events to

>> depict Jesus as a scoundrel, demagogue, and fraud.

Yes, he is certainly off his rocker.

I did not depict Jesus as a fraud.

Jesus was a poor dupe who got sent on a mission to make a public protest against the Jews who bought their religious titles from the Romans.

The scoundrel, demagogue and fraud was Peter, the guy who ran the End of the World cult after Jesus died.

Everything I said about fraud re: the NT accounts must be traced to Peter, not Jesus.


unbound.biola.edu
.
In a letter, Paul tells how he learned about Christ rising from the grave on the third day. After all, Paul wasn't there to see it happen.

1 Corinthians 15:1
And I make known to you, brethren, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which also ye did receive, in which also ye have stood, through which also ye are being saved, in what words I proclaimed good news to you, if ye hold fast, except ye did believe in vain,

1 Corinthians 15:3
for I delivered to you first,

>> what also I did receive,

that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,

1 Corinthians 15:4
and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,

1 Corinthians 15:5

>>> and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve,

1 Corinthians 15:6
afterwards he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain till now, and certain also did fall asleep;

1 Corinthians 15:7
afterwards he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.

So, when Paul visited the Christian Church, he learned that Jesus appeared first to... guess who?... Cephas. Peter.

So, Peter told Paul, "I know Jesus rose from the dead because he appeared to me."

That's where all the nonsense came from.

From a guy running an End of the World cult.

Ok, some originally Petrine developments in Christianity (particualarly Catholicism) are rather untenable and dubious, so you're right to some degree.
As for Christ, he probably meant well, and also probably foresaw his own demise, so I wouldn't stigmatize him as a poor "dupe."

By the by, when I adjusted the font size, I was addressing the comments of Atheroy, not you, Rileywins.

Ha, yeah, meanwhile millions starve while old men bicker about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin What's Theology good for?

There have been saints who have lived only on the Eucharist.


Not me, that's for damn sure!
Could someone explain to me why these "god fearing" clowns need to justify their belief in god by telling the rest of us how bad we are? It just gives me a lower opinion of the person preaching and their religion. If god himself turned up & slapped me in the face, I still wouldn't believe.

Where exactly do I or anyone else say how bad you are?
If you do any good then it must have been done through God since only God is good.


NO, to be honest, when I discuss Christianity and the Bible with Christians, I try to bring up the verses about Exorcism at the beginning of the conversation. Because, most Christians - maybe not you, but most of them - are not aware that Jesus was described as having conversations with demons, and as soon as they read those verses, they get uneasy and start to wonder if their faith in the NT could be mistaken.
Because demons don't exist and exorcists are scam artists.

I was joking... So your a professional at this? Anyways demons do exist.

Okinrus,

Where exactly do I or anyone else say how bad you are?In your next quote –

If you do any good then it must have been done through God since only God is good.If only God can do good then it follows that every human must be bad.

But the essential posture of Christianity is that all men are sinful and must ask God for forgiveness.

If only God can do good then it follows that every human must be bad.

Not necessary. Truely without the existance of God there is no good or bad. However only with God can man be good.

Okinrus,

Not necessary. Truely without the existance of God there is no good or bad. However only with God can man be good.Forgive me but this seems somewhat confused.

It would seem then to be a real advantage for God not to exist if that means the elimination of anything bad.

But what would it mean for there to be no good or bad?

And if indeed that God is responsible for good and bad then it would seem then that humans have no role to play.

Forgive me but this seems somewhat confused.
It would seem then to be a real advantage for God not to exist if that means the elimination of anything bad.

That would also eliminate what was good.


But what would it mean for there to be no good or bad?

Perhaps complete emptyness or chaos. After each of God's creation, God said it was "good" so perhaps nothing would be created.


And if indeed that God is responsible for good and bad then it would seem then that humans have no role to play.

He is responsible for the definition of good and bad. The role play is choosing good.

Another possible reason is to do good we have to know what is good and that knowledge can only be from God. A chaotic system might also do good, but not true goodness, by accident. However it could never know what it did was good.

wow redoubtable, i am overwhelmed by your amazing eloquence with words and ability to answer my question with calm composure. the reason i was getting uptight is because i have asked that very same question many times before without an answer and "god is infinite joy" didn't seem like much of one either. if you are exposed to joy for all of eternity you would get bored of it. just like in hell if you are exposed to pain for all of eternity you'd get used to it. i still don't understand the want to go to heaven. your amazing answer did nothing to change that.

Originally posted by Redoubtable
Ok, some originally Petrine developments in Christianity (particualarly Catholicism) are rather untenable and dubious, so you're right to some degree.
As for Christ, he probably meant well, and also probably foresaw his own demise, so I wouldn't stigmatize him as a poor "dupe."

By the by, when I adjusted the font size, I was addressing the comments of Atheroy, not you, Rileywins.

(I was just experimenting because it looked different. I went back and took out the larger font.)

The way I understand the story, jesus was arrested by the Romans during a trip to Jerusalem. Nothing we have in the NT was written while Jesus was alive, or even in the first five or ten years following his death.

The only real information I have about Jesus is that he went into the Temple of Jerusalem during Passover, overturned the tables of the moneychangers and threw their coins on the ground as some kind of a protest.

This does not make him, in my book, the brightest man who ever lived. Seems like a Galilean of ordinary intelligence would have been able to avoid dying a prolonged and agonizing death on a cross - unless he was tricked into it by someone else.

www.newadvent.org/cathen/01650b.htm

Here's an interesting word.

Apotheosis
(Gr. apotheosis, from, and theos, deify).

(The Greek language has a word for "elevating an ordinary human being to the status of a God." Hmmm. Why would they have a word... unless they did it often enough that people needed a word to describe why "Joe Roman" was now known as "God Joe Roman"?


Deification, the exaltation of men to the rank of gods.

Closely connected with the universal worship of the dead in the history of all primitive peoples was

>> the consecration as deities of heroes or rulers,

>> as a reward for bravery or other great services.

>> Hero-worship had familiarized the minds of the Greeks with the idea that

a man by illustrious deeds can become a god,

and contact with the Orient made them ready to accept the grosser form of apotheosis by which divine honours were offered to the living (Boissier, La religion romaine I, 112).

Philip of Macedon was honoured as a god at Amphipolis, and his son,

>> Alexander the Great, not only claimed descent from the gods of Egypt, but decreed that he should be worshipped in the cities of Greece (Beurlier, De divinis honoribus quos acceperunt Alexander et successores ejus, p. 17).

After his death, and probably largely as the result of

>> the teaching of Euhemerus, that all the gods were deified men,

the custom of apotheosis became very prevalent among the Greeks (Döllinger, Heidenthum und Judenthum, 314 sqq.). In Rome the way for the deification of the emperors was prepared by many historic causes, such as the cult of the manes or the souls of departed friends and ancestors, the worship of the legendary kings of Latium, the Di Indigetes, the myth that Romulus had been transported to heaven, and the deification of Roman soldiers and statesmen by some of the Greek cities. The formal enrollment of the emperors among the gods began with Caesar, to whom the Senate decreed divine honours before his death. Through politic motives Augustus, though tolerating the building of temples and the organization of priestly orders in his honour throughout the provinces and even in Italy, refused to permit himself to be worshipped in Rome itself.

Though many of the early emperors refused to receive divine honours, and

>> the senate, to whom the right of deification belonged,

refused to confirm others, the great majority of the Roman rulers and

>. many members of the imperial family, among whom were some women, were enrolled among the gods.

Emperor-worship... was a powerful element of unity in the empire, as it afforded the pagans a common religion in which it was a patriotic duty to participate. The Christians constantly refused to pay divine honours to the emperor, and their refusal to strew incense was the signal for the death of many martyrs. The custom of decreeing divine honours to the emperors remained in existence until the time of Gratian, who was the first to refuse the insignia of the Summus Pontifex and

>>the first whom the senate failed to place among the gods.

_________

SO, the Roman Senate placed their rulers "among the gods."

How would an End of the World cult like Christianity respond to such a law? By elevating one of their own martyrs to the status of "son of God"?

Yup. Probably in a funeral service, where Peter quoted OT prophecies about resurrection, in order to prove his belief that the End of the World was at hand to his audience.

Yes but the difference was that Jesus did not need to be exalted into a god. He was and always will be God.

Originally posted by atheroy
tell that to buddhist peope who are the happiest people on earth. try telling that to me and i'll laugh at you because i don't see how i'm in hell. god does not have infinite love. the bible's description of god is so flawed that it takes some serious faith (and by faith i mean ignoring what's around us and believing in a book written in parts that makes absolutely no sense most of the time) to believe in the christian god. that's my view anyway. and the people who pervey god's word aren't any better. this is from personal experience so don't try and argue this with me either.


what does this mean? it, in my view means that the very words in the bible are absolute. not open to question. literal. besides, how does the rest of the mammialian world live without the word of god? to my knowledge they live quite contently. on food no less.

and okinrus, i have to ask, do you want to go to heaven? because heaven is forever and there is no excitement up there, so boredom is forever and that is not something i myself would want to experience.


well apparently i'm without god's love and i'm sitting here, writing a reply to you and therefore i am not nothing. i do not "sin" if sinning is going against the ten commandments. i have not choosen satan over god as i believe in neither. if god had infinite love, he wouldn't let people burn in hell just because they had a problem with those that preached his word, because as i understand it, god is also infinitely understanding. Precisely. I'm Buddhist, and here I am, I don't judge as God does, I don't get angry as God does, I forgive people regardless. I could never believe in a God that gets angry and allows that anger to cloud his vision. Like I've said a million times over, look at the product of Buddhism and the product of Christianity, then judge for yourself.

Originally posted by okinrus
Yes but the difference was that Jesus did not need to be exalted into a god. He was and always will be God.

That's one opinion, but it isn't supported by the evidence.

Paul wrote his letter to the Church at Rome before the Gospels were written, or perhaps simultaneous with them.

Paul seems to offer the theory that Jesus was made a God when he was resurrected from the dead:

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, a called apostle, having been separated to the good news of God -- which He announced before through His prophets in holy writings --

Romans 1:3
concerning His Son,

who is come of the seed of David according to the flesh,

(If Jesus came of the seed of David, sounds like Paul never heard the "virgin birth" or "virgin conception" theories, which only came into the story later.)

Romans 1:4

>> who is marked out Son of God in power,

>> according to the Spirit of sanctification,

>> by the rising again from the dead,)

______

So, in Paul's mind, and consistent with the theory of apothesis, Jesus Christ was "marked out Son of God" by the raising from the dead.

Once you know the background - how the Roman senate had the authority to proclaim men to be gods - and how often they used it - then paul's meaning became clear.

Jesus was elevated to the status of "theos" or "Son of god" when he was resurrected from the dead.

Jesus wasn't born God, he was only "Son of God" - and then only by a supernatural proclamation after his death.

You do not understand. Riley there lots of difficult sections but this is not one of them... Jesus is the Son of David.

Originally posted by okinrus
You do not understand. Riley there lots of difficult sections but this is not one of them... Jesus is the Son of David.
______

But Jesus was NOT God.

Jesus was elevated to the title of "Son of theos" by his friends after he died...

and Paul says the great event of his resurrection from the dead was when it happened.

But that's ONLY because Peter told him that Jesus had appeared to him after his death, and then to all the other apostles...

which meant the apostles were all part of the scam, to convince Paul that his dream or vision or whatever was actually an appearance from a risen Jesus...

and Paul thought the best way to make the Greeks aware of this event was to call Jesus a "Son of theos."

But "son of theos" was a relatively minor title in Paul's Greek theology.... even women related to the Roman Emperor had been defied by the Roman Senate. Not just the Emperor, but his relatives as well. So, being Son of Theos meant nothing more than you were a close relative to a dead king. Certainly the genealogy linking Jesus to David met that standard.

But "son of theos" is not the same thing that you mean by "God."

The Son of David is God or at least has the properties of God. http://www.zeitun-eg.org/proph9.htm

Originally posted by okinrus
The Son of David is God or at least has

>> the properties of God. << http://www.zeitun-eg.org/proph9.htm

This link gives places in the Bible where Jesus is identified as a son of David.

Has nothing to do with Jesus having "properties of God."

The people who wrote these verses wanted a human Messiah, a human Savior, because they had been conquered by a foreign power. Their sacred writings said YHWH had promised Abraham and his descendants a piece of land forever, and they wanted God to fulfill his promise.

By sending a Savior. A Messiah.

The link you posted quotes from the King James Version:
Acts 13:22-23
And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

>> Of this man's seed hath

>>> God according to his promise

>>> raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
_____________

Calling a rabbi a "savior" is not the same thing as calling him "god."

This - part of a speech by Paul - says that God - a distinct entity called "God" - has raised unto Israel, a Savior. The Savior is Jesus. The Savior is "of this man's seed" meaning he was NOT the product of a virgin conception.

Paul talked at length about the mission and nature of Jesus, and NEVER said Jesus was god.

It's not in there.

Do you bother reading this stuff before you post it? Because that's one of the rules - you need to post verses that support YOUR position, not MY position. And when they're simply not on the subject, like this one, you're not doing your part.

Originally posted by Baba O'Riley
doesnt that sound a little intimidating?

No, its Christian brainwashing!

Originally posted by Red Devil
No, its Christian brainwashing!
______-

Interesting article in today's news.

Catholic Church hired a panel of outside laypeople to make sure the clergy was serious about stopping the abuse of children.

Head of panel was very critical, said the clergy wasn't doing enough.

After heading up the panel for one year, they fired him.

So, the Catholic Church is NOT serious about stopping the abuse of children. They don't want the full extent of it known.

Riley: You are very close to fact there. Abuse within the catholic church is rife - and not just children.

do you know the sad thing, part of the catholic church is called the rectory. there was an article in my local paper a while ago detailing how the senior clergyman or whatever was abusing an alter boy in the rectory. i had a double-take when reading that.

Where exactly do I or anyone else say how bad you are?
If you do any good then it must have been done through God since only God is good.
There you've said it again! By that definition anything bad I do must be caused by satan, huh?
What is good? What is bad?
Do you "god-fearers" really see the world in black & white, right & wrong, good & evil?

There you've said it again! By that definition anything bad I do must be caused by satan, huh?
What is good? What is bad?

Satan and God are not direct opposites. However what your saying is wrong. Some sin is unintentional and probably does not have its roots with Satan and his fallen angels. On the other hand, the heart itself may become diseased by demons but the sin not directly caused by demons. You have freewill to choose God and do Good or chose Satan and do evil. You are responsible for the choice but not what is Good. In reality to true Good you have to be concience of what is Good... and the only definition of good comes from God thus even when you seem to do good of your own accord, God also plays a role. Satan is not responsible for defining what is evil.


Do you "god-fearers" really see the world in black & white, right & wrong, good & evil?

Gray areas are usually caused by sin or foggyness caused by the devil. We can judge actions based on their moral consequences. These consquences in turn will be judged by "love of God" and "love of neighbor".

Paul talked at length about the mission and nature of Jesus, and NEVER said Jesus was god.

I'd still like a comment from one of our Christian proponents on that one. Please respond to the fact that YOUR VERY OWN BOOK says that Jesus was NOT mentioned as the son of God at Paul's sermon, and he was refered to as being "Of so-and-so's seed," indicating that he was NOT born of virgin birth or immaculate conception. It's in your OWN DAMN BOOK. Now please, enough of your silence, just respond to that. Riley is quoting evidence against Jesus being God out of your own book, why can't you come up with anything?

JD

Immaculate conception is different from the virgin birth. The immaculate conception refers to Mary being born sinless without original sin. Paul usually uses God for God the Father or otherwise known as the God of the OT. There are a few sections. God is rea

lly a title not a name so if Jesus meets the qualities of that title then we may give him godship.


I'd still like a comment from one of our Christian proponents on that one. Please respond to the fact that YOUR VERY OWN BOOK says that Jesus was NOT mentioned as the son of God at Paul's sermon, and he was refered to as being "Of so-and-so's seed," indicating that he was NOT born of virgin birth or immaculate conception. It's in your OWN DAMN BOOK. Now please, enough of your silence, just respond to that. Riley is quoting evidence against Jesus being God out of your own book, why can't you come up with anything?

There would be no "damn" without hell and you do not believe in hell. Jesus is the Son of David. We don't mean biological son but as the messiah.



15
6 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16
For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18
He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
19
For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell,
20
and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.
21
12 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds
22
he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him,
23
provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.


Why would Paul even need say that Jesus was God because it's in the old testament.
Numbers 23

Then Balaam said to Balak, "Build me seven altars, and prepare seven bullocks and seven rams for me here."
2
So he did as Balaam had ordered, offering a bullock and a ram on each altar. And Balak said to him, "I have erected the seven altars, and have offered a bullock and a ram on each."
3
Balaam then said to him, "Stand here by your holocaust while I go over there. Perhaps the LORD will meet me, and then I will tell you whatever he lets me see." He went out on the barren height,
4
and God met him.
5
When he had put an utterance in Balaam's mouth, the LORD said to him, "Go back to Balak, and speak accordingly."
6
So he went back to Balak, who was still standing by his holocaust together with all the princes of Moab.
7
1 Then Balaam gave voice to his oracle: From Aram has Balak brought me here, Moab's king, from the Eastern Mountains: "Come and lay a curse for me on Jacob, come and denounce Israel."
8
How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9
2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations.
10
3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel's wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!
11
"What have you done to me?" cried Balak to Balaam. "It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them."
12
Balaam replied, "Is it not what the LORD puts in my mouth that I must repeat with care?"
13
4 Then Balak said to him, "Please come with me to another place from which you can see only some and not all of them, and from there curse them for me."
14
So he brought him to the lookout field on the top of Pisgah, where he built seven altars and offered a bullock and a ram on each of them.
15
Balaam then said to Balak, "Stand here by your holocaust, while I seek a meeting over there."
16
Then the LORD met Balaam, and having put an utterance in his mouth, he said to him, "Go back to Balak, and speak accordingly."
17
So he went back to Balak, who was still standing by his holocaust together with the princes of Moab. When Balak asked him, "What did the LORD say?"
18
Balaam gave voice to his oracle: Be aroused, O Balak, and hearken; give ear to my testimony, O son of Zippor!
19
God is not man that he should speak falsely, nor human, that he should change his mind. Is he one to speak and not act, to decree and not fulfill?
20
It is a blessing I have been given to pronounce; a blessing which I cannot restrain.
21
5 Misfortune is not observed in Jacob, nor misery seen in Israel. The LORD, his God, is with him; with him is the triumph of his King.
22
6 It is God who brought him out of Egypt, a wild bull of towering might.
23
No, there is no sorcery against Jacob, nor omen against Israel. It shall yet be said of Jacob, and of Israel, "Behold what God has wrought!"
24
Here is a people that springs up like a lioness, and stalks forth like a lion; It rests not till it has devoured its prey and has drunk the blood of the slain.



Isaiah 53
Notice the LORD here. A title used only in the old testament for God.

Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2
1 He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him.
3
2 He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.
4
3 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.
6
We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.
7
Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.
8
Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people,
9
A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.
10
4 (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him.
11
Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear.
12
Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.
Table of Contents Previous Chapter Next Chapter
Footnotes
1 [2] Only God appreciated his Servant's true greatness.

2 [3] Because he suffered, he was regarded as a sinner and therefore as one to be spurned.

3 [4-6] He did indeed suffer but it was for the sins of mankind, and through his sufferings men are healed.

4 [10-12] Because he fulfilled the divine will by suffering for the sins of others, the Servant will be rewarded by the Lord. See the light: enjoy happiness. This line may originally have read, "he shall drink and eat to the full"--at the thanksgiving sacrifice at which he shall divide the spoils (53:12).

The barren woman represents the Gentiles. The redeemer is Christ.

Isaiah 54
1
1 Raise a glad cry, you barren one who did not bear, break forth in jubilant song, you who were not in labor, For more numerous are the children of the deserted wife than the children of her who has a husband, says the LORD.
2
Enlarge the space for your tent, spread out your tent cloths unsparingly; lengthen your ropes and make firm your stakes.
3
For you shall spread abroad to the right and to the left; Your descendants shall dispossess the nations and shall people the desolate cities.
4
Fear not, you shall not be put to shame; you need not blush, for you shall not be disgraced. The shame of your youth you shall forget, the reproach of your widowhood no longer remember.
5
2 For he who has become your husband is your Maker; his name is the LORD of hosts; Your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, called God of all the earth.
6
The LORD calls you back, like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, A wife married in youth and then cast off, says your God.
7
For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great tenderness I will take you back.
8
In an outburst of wrath, for a moment I hid my face from you; But with enduring love I take pity on you, says the LORD, your redeemer.
9
This is for me like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah should never again deluge the earth; So I have sworn not to be angry with you, or to rebuke you.
10
Though the mountains leave their place and the hills be shaken, My love shall never leave you nor my covenant of peace be shaken, says the LORD, who has mercy on you.
11
3 O afflicted one, storm-battered and unconsoled, I lay your pavements in carnelians, and your foundations in sapphires;
12
I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of carbuncles, and all your walls of precious stones.
13
All your sons shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.
14
In justice shall you be established, far from the fear of oppression, where destruction cannot come near you.
15
Should there be any attack, it shall not be of my making; whoever attacks you shall fall before you.
16
Lo, I have created the craftsman who blows on the burning coals and forges weapons as his work; It is I also who have created the destroyer to work havoc.
17
No weapon fashioned against you shall prevail; every tongue you shall prove false that launches an accusation against you. This is the lot of the servants of the LORD, their vindication from me, says the LORD.

If there was any doubt to what Paul meant by savior
Isaiah 43

But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob, and formed you, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name: you are mine.
2
When you pass through the water, I will be with you; in the rivers you shall not drown. When you walk through fire, you shall not be burned; the flames shall not consume you.
3
1 For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in return for you.
4
Because you are precious in my eyes and glorious, and because I love you, I give men in return for you and peoples in exchange for your life.
5
Fear not, for I am with you; from the east I will bring back your descendants, from the west I will gather you.
6
I will say to the north: Give them up! and to the south: Hold not back! Bring back my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth:
7
Everyone who is named as mine, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.
8
Lead out the people who are blind though they have eyes, who are deaf though they have ears.
9
2 Let all the nations gather together, let the peoples assemble! Who among them could have revealed this, or foretold to us the earlier things? Let them produce witnesses to prove themselves right, that one may hear and say, "It is true!"
10
You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen To know and believe in me and understand that it is I. Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none.
11
It is I, I the LORD; there is no savior but me.
12
It is I who foretold, I who saved; I made it known, not any strange god among you; You are my witnesses, says the LORD. I am God,
13
yes, from eternity I am He; There is none who can deliver from my hand: who can countermand what I do?
14
3 Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: For your sakes I send to Babylon; I will lower all the bars, and the Chaldeans shall cry out in lamentation.
15
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
16
Thus says the LORD, who opens a way in the sea and a path in the mighty waters,
17
Who leads out chariots and horsemen, a powerful army, Till they lie prostrate together, never to rise, snuffed out and quenched like a wick.
18
4 Remember not the events of the past, the things of long ago consider not;
19
See, I am doing something new! Now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? In the desert I make a way, in the wasteland, rivers.
20
Wild beasts honor me, jackals and ostriches, For I put water in the desert and rivers in the wasteland for my chosen people to drink,
21
The people whom I formed for myself, that they might announce my praise.
22
5 Yet you did not call upon me, O Jacob, for you grew weary of me, O Israel.
23
You did not bring me sheep for your holocausts, nor honor me with your sacrifices. I did not exact from you the service of offerings, nor weary you for frankincense.
24
6 You did not buy me sweet cane for money, nor fill me with the fat of your sacrifices; Instead, you burdened me with your sins, and wearied me with your crimes.
25
It is I, I, who wipe out, for my own sake, your offenses; your sins I remember no more.
26
Would you have me remember, have us come to trial? Speak up, prove your innocence!
27
7 Your first father sinned; your spokesmen rebelled against me
28
Till I repudiated the holy gates, put Jacob under the ban, and exposed Israel to scorn.

The problem with quoting the old testament if you believe Jesus was the messiah mentioned in it, as you seem to, is that the new testament says the old one is obsolete. It is therefore pointless to use it in any argument when trying to validate your beliefs.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

The problem with quoting the old testament if you believe Jesus was the messiah mentioned in it, as you seem to, is that the new testament says the old one is obsolete. It is therefore pointless to use it in any argument when trying to validate your beliefs.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

This is prophetical section not part of the Torah.
The old testment covenant was only to the Jews and regards to dietary restrictions etc. It does not mean the old testament is obsolete, otherwise christians would just throw it out. Jesus says "not an iota of the law will be removed until all has been fullfilled".


6
The LORD calls you back, like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, A wife married in youth and then cast off, says your God.
7
For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great tenderness I will take you back.
8
In an outburst of wrath, for a moment I hid my face from you; But with enduring love I take pity on you, says the LORD, your redeemer.
9
This is for me like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah should never again deluge the earth; So I have sworn not to be angry with you, or to rebuke you.
10
Though the mountains leave their place and the hills be shaken, My love shall never leave you nor my covenant of peace be shaken, says the LORD, who has mercy on you.

This prophesies the new convenant with the gentiles.

okinrus
You have freewill to choose God and do Good or chose Satan and do evil
how do i then do good? i have accepted neither of these two beings and am nicer than most of my christian mates because i'm not always sitting there judging how low people are beneath me based on what and how strong their faith is. in my capacity with freewill i'm doing a better job at being good than christian people who are threatened to be good, or else.

Ok okinrus, I see there is no point in arguing with you on a biblical level as you will just take things to mean whatever it takes to justify your beliefs in the text. (note I say your beliefs as I am not so sure that is how the texts were meant to be taken in the first place, however, what scares me is maybe that is the way they were meant to be taken) The chapter preceding that verse says nothing of laws and dietary restrictions all it speaks of is the former covenant.

9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.

Besides, after reading that passage through again, it appears to me that everyone already knows God so any particular belief they hold must be correct, and any argument or even religious affiliation is pointless according to your book.

No... Jesus said "God is your only teacher". Jesus is our teacher.
1 John 2:3 "The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, "I know him," but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Ok okinrus, I see there is no point in arguing with you on a biblical level as you will just take things to mean whatever it takes to justify your beliefs in the text. (note I say your beliefs as I am not so sure that is how the texts were meant to be taken in the first place, however, what scares me is maybe that is the way they were meant to be taken) The chapter preceding that verse says nothing of laws and dietary restrictions all it speaks of is the former covenant.

The dietary restrictions are in the Torah and are considered part of the old convenant made with Isreal. Jesus said something like "what goes into your mouth does not defile you, but only what comes out" and Peter later had a prophetic vision telling him that all animals created by God were clean. http://home.wmis.net/~pilgrim/covenant.htm

how do i then do good? i have accepted neither of these two beings and am nicer than most of my christian mates because i'm not always sitting there judging how low people are beneath me based on what and how strong their faith is. in my capacity with freewill i'm doing a better job at being good than christian people who are threatened to be good, or else.

Christians are not supposed to judge others. God is within you at least sometimes, but you do not acknowledge him. Anyways what generally happens is that people's good works get inflated with pride and so they are not truely good. Then they become hypocritical with hearts of stone like the Pharisees.

Christians are not supposed to judge others. God is within you at least sometimes, but you do not acknowledge him. Anyways what generally happens is that people's good works get inflated with pride and so they are not truely good. Then they become hypocritical with hearts of stone like the Pharisees.
when i say good i mean every day good like being nice to people. everyone should do it anyway, what kind of person are you that needs a god to be able to be nice to someone? and i find it funny that christians are not supposed to to judge when tey are most often the perpetraitors of such behaviour. you would not believe the bbehavioural change from being omeone worth talking to too a waste of time just when people enquire as to what i believe.

ps; why would being nice to people inflate pride. i think it is necessary for us to take pride in our achievments otherwise it would feel like a waste of time doing anything worth doing.

No disrespect to our resident "believers" but Satan did not exist before Christianity. He is a "christianization" of the pre christian world ancient god "Pan" - ergo any "god" not fitting in with their ideas of christianity is necessarily "evil".

Pan was as real a god to pre christians as "god" is to christians.

when i say good i mean every day good like being nice to people. everyone should do it anyway, what kind of person are you that needs a god to be able to be nice to someone? and i find it funny that christians are not supposed to to judge when tey are most often the perpetraitors of such behaviour. you would not believe the bbehavioural change from being omeone worth talking to too a waste of time just when people enquire as to what i believe.

No, but unless you have sold everything to the poor and live like Jesus then there's always room for improvement. Kind of being hypocritical here.


ps; why would being nice to people inflate pride. i think it is necessary for us to take pride in our achievments otherwise it would feel like a waste of time doing anything worth doing.

Doesn't doing good make you feel better about yourself thus in itself is the benefit? Just having pride in achievments is not terribly bad but excessive pride is.


No disrespect to our resident "believers" but Satan did not exist before Christianity. He is a "christianization" of the pre christian world ancient god "Pan" - ergo any "god" not fitting in with their ideas of christianity is necessarily "evil".

Pan was as real a god to pre christians as "god" is to christians.

That's why Job talks about Satan. Ezekiel also talks about the fallen cherub, Satan. Yes any idol is evil and may gravitate demonic spirits.

Originally posted by okinrus


God is really a title not a name so if Jesus meets the qualities of that title then we may give him godship.

Isaiah 53
Notice the LORD here. A title used only in the old testament for God.

9
>> A grave was assigned him among the wicked and

>> a burial place with evildoers,
______

I still can't figure out what you see in this nonsense.

________

If the subject of Isaiah 53 was given "a burial place with evildoers," how does that fit with Jesus being placed in a tomb where no other body had ever been placed?

Your prophecy doesn't fit the facts of the life of Jesus. Better luck next time.

_____________

The title LORD in the Old Testament - when it is capitalized - stands for four Hebrew letters. YHWH. Pronounced "Yahweh" or something similar, but Jews were forbidden from pronouncing it aloud.

But there are other places in the King James version where Lord appears - and that's a translation of a different word, not YHWH.

Adonai - a human who is worshiped for being a ruler - is translated as Lord in English.

So, when Paul says "Adonai" and it is translated into English as Lord, a lot of Christians say "Paul called Jesus God" and that's not what he said at all. He didn't call jesus YHWH. He called Jesus "Adonai" and he called lots of other humans by the same term.

______


You said "God is not a name but a title..??? (WRONG!) OK, you read the notes at the end of Josh's book, but you missed a few places.

EL - generic term for god

ELOHIM - plural form, used in Creation Story in Genesis

SamuEL, DaniEL, lots of Hebrew names refer to God. Parents pay tribute to God by naming theirs sons "God is good."

EmmanuEL. God is with us. Jesus wasn't named Emmanuel.


YHWH - name of a specific Hebrew deity, a god of thunder who appeared to Moses.

Every time I look at the photos from the Hubble telescope, it baffles me how any rational human being can think the Bible is a credible source of information about the origin of the universe.

How can science have come so far, and so many Christians not have the faintest idea what Truth is?

So, when Paul says "Adonai" and it is translated into English as Lord, a lot of Christians say "Paul called Jesus God" and that's not what he said at all. He didn't call jesus YHWH. He called Jesus "Adonai" and he called lots of other humans by the same term.

The problem is that Jesus died. I've never heard someone call a dead person Lord, except for Elvis but he doesn't really count. Your objection does not matter here. Paul called Jesus saviour and Isiah says that only God is our Saviour. Clearly Paul is using God to mean God the Father but this does not mean that Jesus is not God.


You said "God is not a name but a title..??? (WRONG!) OK, you read the notes at the end of Josh's book, but you missed a few places.

No. God's name is YHWH not "God" but different translation might translate YHWH into God or Lord. This was what I meant.

If the subject of Isaiah 53 was given "a burial place with evildoers," how does that fit with Jesus being placed in a tomb where no other body had ever been placed?

"The place of the skull" was where he was crucified and his body could not be taken far from there. "A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers".
I'm not sure where the contradiction is. Jesus had his own grave along side of other graves of the wicked. The burial place refers to the entire grave site in the caves
http://www.gardentomb.com/Pages/tour.html

The problem is that Jesus died. I've never heard someone call a dead person Lord, except for Elvis but he doesn't really count.

Why doesn't Elvis count? You never know, in several thousand years, with a few translation errors, some added bits and some thrown in imagination people might just think Elvis was a king of our times. Then furthermore some people might extrapolate that this king was in fact a god because his name is Elvis- meaning god lord, (or similar to lord, something noble of origin at any rate- which is the meaning of 'vis').

Strike down those who would mock our king and savior Elvis. For all that is good in the world is Elvis. And elvis, King of Kings shall reign eternal.

Okinrus - Satan is in the "translated" bible - eg: added later. I dont know for certain, but he is not in the original hebrew thingy?

Jeremy: Keep taking the tablets mate!!

Great idea pass the tablets...ummm pink ones please?

You may be onto something here.
People DO say that God is Love and ELvis did call himself a "Hunka hunka burnin' Love".
hmmmmmm

What other parallels were there?

He was generous (giving Cadilacs away to strangers and all).
He did have some wrath issues (smiting the TV with Saint Smith and Saint Wesson).

What else?
Any suggestions?

Satan means adversary. The story of Job, personifies Satan along with the angels. Ezekiel prophesies about King of Tyre alongside a cherub whom fell. And Jesus gives his disciples of authority to tread on serpents and scorpians. These are general types of demons, the serpents decieve and scorpians cause pain. Thus the serpent in genesis is Satan and dirt that he eats is the death of souls.

And Jesus gives his disciples of authority to tread on serpents and scorpians.

What a retard. Did he know nothing about animal welfare? I've taught my child that EVERYTHING has the right to life, regardless of how small, inferior and apparently insignificant. However.. if i lived in the times of tents and campfires then i probably too would tell my friends and family to squash things like scorpions and snakes because many of them are harmful to humans- not because they have evil thoughts, or are a by-product of satan or demons, but they- just like everything else- needs to defend itself and increase chances of its own survival. No offence but if you regard scorpions and snakes as 'general types of demons', you're a damn lunatic freak. I suppose bees are demons because they sting and 'cause pain'. I suppose tigers are demons because they eat people, given the chance. I suppose teeny weeny little bacteria are demons because they cause illness... Sort yourself out.

You misunderstand... The serpent is the symbol of satan but also wisdom.

No, but unless you have sold everything to the poor and live like Jesus then there's always room for improvement. Kind of being hypocritical here.
lol, WHY would you do that? he sounds like a badass, SELLING things to the poor- i GIVE clothes to the poor, i don't require money for such an action. jesus sounds like some kind of ultra hippy, honestly what can you achieve if you have no personal effects? NOTHING!! you need a basis on which you can do good. if you have nothing then your influence is limited.

You misunderstand... The serpent is the symbol of satan but also wisdom.
wow, i'm so surpirsed. i wonder if that wasn't a direct correlation cooked up by religious types to deter people from knowledge so they could be kept under the hypno-spell of religion. would not be surpirsed. devious tactics have been employed many times before in crhistianity and christian types- this certainly wouldn't be alone (it would have millions of such brothers).

lol, WHY would you do that? he sounds like a badass, SELLING things to the poor- i GIVE clothes to the poor, i don't require money for such an action. jesus sounds like some kind of ultra hippy, honestly what can you achieve if you have no personal effects? NOTHING!! you need a basis on which you can do good. if you have nothing then your influence is limited.

You always have God.


wow, i'm so surpirsed. i wonder if that wasn't a direct correlation cooked up by religious types to deter people from knowledge so they could be kept under the hypno-spell of religion. would not be surpirsed. devious tactics have been employed many times before in crhistianity and christian types- this certainly wouldn't be alone (it would have millions of such brothers).

Revelation 20:2 "He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, and tied it up for a thousand years and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the tousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time."

Well St. Patrick is said to drive the snakes out of Ireland.
http://www.ccel.org/p/patrick/confession/confession.html

Well St. Patrick is said to drive the snakes out of Ireland.

Yeah and the pied piper drove the rats out of hamlin.

Puss in boots drove the mice out of the castle,

Jack chopped down the beanstalk,

*yawn*

There's no dodo's in southern france, no crocodiles in germany, and us brits will never stumble upon a wolverine in our fair country.

There used to be a certain type of ferret in scotland. "One day" they were wiped out. There's no longer any red kites in england- they too were wiped out. It's nice to think, (if you like that sort of thing), that one man was responsible but thats not how things go. Environment, localized extinction etc do occur- and more frequently than you'd care to imagine. If i'm seen to be beating englands last known badger to death, you could very well say i am responsible for ending badger population in england. Doesn't really mean i killed all of them but over time thats quite probable how i would be seen- especially if they were technical vermin.

I thought you would read the account given to you that says that there was never any snakes in Ireland...

You always have God.
what kind of answer is that? to my knowledge no-one has god. he has NEVER come down to earth to help anyone i know or me or anyone else out during the past 2000 years (and it's dubious that he did anything before that as well).

Revelation 20:2 "He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent, which is the Devil or Satan, and tied it up for a thousand years and threw it into the abyss, which he locked over it and sealed, so that it could no longer lead the nations astray until the tousand years are completed. After this, it is to be released for a short time."
you justify my idea that it was by religious people that put the idea forward that wisdom is bad and should be kept away from. i'll give it to these church people, they were mighty smart when it comes to manipulating people so they will believe in something. beisdes i think it is better to know stuuf than not to know stuuf- how many people have died from the common cold? more in 1918 died of the virus that swept the world than all those killed in world war one. i think the world need a whole lot more wsidom if we're going to save this planet and our current quality of life (ok so that is only in some nations).

Yeah i read the account.

My point was to show how easily warped folklore and belief can become when left in the hands of simpletons. Evidence would always suggest impossibility that any one person could remove an entire species of animal from a country. Mainly because he would need to see every square millimetre of that country in order to know he'd removed every single one of that animal. However the folklore and belief remains intact no matter how much points against it being reality.

How many people still search for the loch ness monster even though the guy who took the original pictures confessed it was a set-up?

If moses stood up now and said he was writing a load of old cobblers you'd still believe in god.

Once a belief is rooted within a culture it remains even when proof shows otherwise.

For instance: You sit there and believe scorpions and snakes are demons..... all because someone 2000 years ago said it was ok to squash them.

That doesnt mean they are, or ever were demonic.

what kind of answer is that? to my knowledge no-one has god. he has NEVER come down to earth to help anyone i know or me or anyone else out during the past 2000 years (and it's dubious that he did anything before that as well).

Yes he has. You do not believe the accounts and I just gave you St.Patrick's.


you justify my idea that it was by religious people that put the idea forward that wisdom is bad and should be kept away from. i'll give it to these church people, they were mighty smart when it comes to manipulating people so they will believe in something. beisdes i think it is better to know stuuf than not to know stuuf- how many people have died from the common cold? more in 1918 died of the virus that swept the world than all those killed in world war one. i think the world need a whole lot more wsidom if we're going to save this planet and our current quality of life (ok so that is only in some nations).

What does God have to do with this? All wisdom comes from God.

Guys, how come there are so many fanatical replies towards religion in this site, isn't there a Catholic or KKK site on the internet?

Am I fanatical?

no okinrus, don't pay attention, this is a religious fourm right here, don't take the bait.

Yes he has. You do not believe the accounts and I just gave you St.Patrick's.
sorry dude, but i in no way believe in god. unfortunately the more i talk about this subject and read posts here i find myself more and more divorced from the concept of god. not to worry though, it's just not for me. i don't mind going to hell just because i have ideological differences with some people or a book (not that i actually believe in hell but when i die i somehow don't expect to end up in hell- especially if there is a god and especially if what you christians say is true. if god is all understanding then he will understand me and my problems. no sweat tho, i think faith is definately for some while definately not for others).

What does God have to do with this? All wisdom comes from God.
i'm saying the idea that wisdom is bad for us was put forward by religious types as a lid to keep wary minds from questioning religious theory with things like science. also, all wisdom cannot have extended from god as he supposedly only wrote one book. i believe most scientific discoveries had nothing to do with divine inspiration, but rather hard work from persevering humans.

i'm saying the idea that wisdom is bad for us was put forward by religious types as a lid to keep wary minds from questioning religious theory with things like science. also, all wisdom cannot have extended from god as he supposedly only wrote one book. i believe most scientific discoveries had nothing to do with divine inspiration, but rather hard work from persevering humans.

Not to degrade the very smart scientists but it's all observation on God's creation.

quote:
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lol, WHY would you do that? he sounds like a badass, SELLING things to the poor- i GIVE clothes to the poor, i don't require money for such an action. jesus sounds like some kind of ultra hippy, honestly what can you achieve if you have no personal effects? NOTHING!! you need a basis on which you can do good. if you have nothing then your influence is limited.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You always have God.



Ok, it's exactly that which shows what is wrong with the Christian religion. For the purpose of manipulation, the Christians put forth the idea that knowledge and learning is wrong. Take a look at the facts:

The Snake is the symbol of knowledge; AND the symbol of EVIL.

The Snake (Knowledge) bestowed the power of learning unto Eve. This was seen as wrong by God.

Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden for LEARNING.

The Tower of Babel, which was a team effort which took intelligence and learning, was frowned upon and God made the people speak different languages.

God himself says that reason must be crushed underfoot.

In the Bible, anytime someone asks a question that even hints of doubt, they are punished or called out on it. People who ask questions which bear the mark of not believing in God's power are really, truly frowned upon. MANY examples are given. And for good reason...

It was a plan by the Christians to make it's followers very, very subserviant to the cause, and make them willing to do anything, becuase, after all, knowledge is evil, so there was no questioning of what was going on. So, as they did in the Bible, and did in times afterward, use their influence to wage wars, get new land and wealth, ect., ect..

If you look back on history, the times before the Bible, and how advanced things were back then, you can see easily why we are not on level with our ancestors. Tablets in Egypt depict complex surgery procedures such as heart, lung, kidney and even BRAIN transplants; trinkets modeled after flying machines have been found all over, as have tablets displaying spaceships and the proper order of planets in our solar system! Batteries capable of generating a decent amount of electricity have been found in Iraq! Summeria, the first known human civilization, had a sewer system and running hot and cold water!

Isn't it obvious that because of the power Christians wielded in the Roman empire (Eventually) and the monstrosities they committed in Europe and other parts of the world has caused our era of humanity to lag behind? The reason our ancestors could fly, could take hot baths, could draw perfectly accurate maps of the entire world, could heal diseases and replace faulty organs is becuase they did not have this damned book to deal with! There was no dogma to hold them back!

I mean, there's a reason that all of a sudden humanity started taking technological leaps and bounds in short periods of time, and that is becuase science, at a time not so long removed, decided that relgion would not hinder them from asking questions, going against the norm and society and asking WHY!

Christianity's hold may never break, but at least our visionaries have freed themselves. Someday, when someone says "Hey, why is that there?" and a man replies with "Becuase God wanted it that way." the first man can say "Yeah, bullshit."

JD

Okay, In the bible it never says that the pursuit of knowledge is evil. God told us to "subdue the earth and everything on it" (or something along those lines). Well, that pretty much means rule over the earth. Well inorder to rule you kind of have to have knowledge and learning. God gave us brains..so we could use it. The problem with the tree was that, it would give us the knowledge of evil. Before that, Adam and eve didnt know whath sin or evil was. Knowledge isnt evil, but some applications of it are evil.

Originally posted by okinrus
You misunderstand... The serpent is the symbol of satan but also wisdom.

Precisely, which is why the medical services in some countries use the serpent. In Germany, it is the Apotheke sign if I remember correctly.

Jeremy: I as thinking more in lines of those tablets "cast in stone" :D

Are you sure that is why? In the Desert, God makes Moses make the image of a serpent. When the Isrealites were bit by a snake they would stare at the serpent to be healed.

Originally posted by okinrus
Paul called Jesus saviour and Isiah says that only God is our Saviour. Clearly Paul is using God to mean God the Father but this does not mean that Jesus is not God.

_____

In Greek mythology:

ADONIS Beloved of Aphrodite, the central figure of a widespread fertility cult, god of vegetation and rebirth. Adonis seems clearly linked with Tammuz, the Assyro-Babylonion god who dies and rises again. Adonis is the Greek version of the Phoenician term Adon, which means "Lord."


Yes, it does mean that Jesus is NOT God.

Because Jesus was either a human being who died, or a figment of some creative person's imagination, updating ancient myths into a Jewish savior.

Paul never said Jesus was God.

Paul said Jesus was a Savior sent from God.

Once you understand the difference, you're a long way to understanding what the Bible really says.

There's a fictional being called "The Son of Man." Before Jesus was born, Jews and others were talking about the End of the World and how the Son of Man would appear in the clouds to judge mankind.
_______

The Book of Enoch is divided into five basic parts. The Book of Parables (37-71) is primarily concerned with a figure called "the messiah"; "the righteous one"; "the chosen one" and "the son of man."
Chapter 46:1-2 [1] There I beheld the Ancient of days whose head was like white wool, and with him another, whose countenance resembled that of a man. His countenance was full of grace, like that of one of the holy angels. Then I inquired of one of the angels, who went with me, and who showed me every secret thing, concerning this Son of man; who he was; whence he was; and why he accompanied the Ancient of days. [2] He answered and said to me, This is the Son of man, to whom righteousness belongs; with whom righteousness has dwealt; and who will reveal all the treasures of that which is concealed: for the Lord of spirits has chosen him; and his portion has surpassed all before the Lord of spirits in everlasting uprightness."

The opening verses of the Book of Enoch tell us that the revelations in this book were not meant for Enoch's generation, rather a remote generation...
________

The real Jesus never claimed to be the Son of Man, but he might have quoted from the stories about Enoch going around, to bolster his claim that the world was about to end.


In Roman mythology, a "soter" was a god who came down to earth and took human form for a while, and did good deeds. This was another popular form of literature at the time, stories about soters. To say that Jesus was a "soter" or a "Savior" could have meant a lot of things, but Paul was using it in a certain way, as a human being delegated by God to announce the End of the World.

This stuff is complete nonsense. Really, it is. But at least understand that Paul was not writing the Gospel in the way that you "believe" it - try to understand what it was, not what you want it to be, and you'll be way ahead of the game.

End of the World cult. 2 Peter, chapter 3.

www.google.com

Just on a hunch, I went over to Google and typed in

"soter Roman mythology"

Here's one of the first ones that came up:

Gnosticism ... combines ideas from Oriental mysticism and Greek philosophy. It stresses salvation through gnosis or intuitive knowledge in spiritual matters. Gnosticism has a dualistic view of life in that the world is seen as containing two opposing forces, good and evil.

>> The Jewish God, Jehovah, was considered to be a demon or devil who created this evil world.

>> The good was represented by a Savior, Soter in Greek.

>> Soter was also called the "Son of God " and was one of a trinity of g-ds.

>>> The soter would redeem mankind by his suffering and release it from the evil Demiurge.

Many of the Gnostic writings were anti-Jewish, reflecting the Jewish-Greek cultural rivalry. The dichotomy in Gnosticism was further seen in the conflict between body and soul and the contempt it expressed for sexuality in human nature (Maccoby, The Mythmaker: Paul And The Invention Of Christianity, p. 88-89).

from

http://www.geocities.com/faithofyeshua/conflict_judaism_gentile_hellenism_in_nt.htm

The term "soter" appears in an inscription

____________
...on a lighthouse called the Pharos, which was built on Pharos island, at the same time that the Great Library was built at Alexandria was the Great Library, one of two most important libraries of the Ancient World. Thanks to Demetrios, it obtained copies of all known scrolls of any consequence, and it is said to have contained over nine hundred thousand papyri.

>> Religious Christian fanatics burned the Great Library in 391 AD.

... The ever-increasing importance of Alexandria meant that its harbors had to be properly indicated, for the Egyptian coast has few landmarks to safely guide the sailor. It was then surely a necessity to build the lighthouse.

The Pharos was the first architecturally designed and developed lighthouse, the latest building to be added to what is now known as the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World.

>> Construction work on The Pharos was begun around 285 BC under Ptolemy I Soter, “the Savior” (305-282 BC),

Alexander’s childhood friend who, after Alexander’s death in 323 BC, set up a dynasty of Pharaohs
____________


So, we have an inscription where a Egyptian King who died in 282 BC was known as "Soter" "the Savior"

and lots of other places where Soter is used as a title meaning "Savior" too.before the term was applied to Jesus. check it out.

Paul said Jesus was a Savior sent from God.

Jesus said that he was sent from God too. You have to understand that both are talking about the Father.

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

Isaiah says that the only Savior can be God on Earth. Now Paul was famaliar with Isaiah and would know this. Paul says that the blood of the lamb saves us from sin. Compare Paul and Isaiah

Isaiah 19
20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD ,
and apart from me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it-
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.

Isaiah 49:26
I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the LORD , am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."
Hosea 13:4
"But I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out of [1] Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Timothy 1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,

1 Timothy 4:10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

2 Timothy 1:10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Corinthians 6:15
"I will live with them and move among them, and I will be their God and they shall be my people. Therefore, come forth from them and be separate," says the Lord, 'and touch nothing unclean; then I will receive you and I will be a ther to you and you shall be sons and daughters to me says the Lord Almighty".

Galatians 4:19
"Why, then, the law? It was added for transgressions, until the descendant came to whom the promise had been made; it was promulgated by angels at the hand of a mediator. Now there is no mediator when only one party is involved, and God is one."

Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

Jesus said that he was sent from God too. You have to understand that both are talking about the Father.

What you should understand is that humans don't always tell the truth. I can sit here and say "i am god", just because idiots believe it, does that mean it's true?

God told us to "subdue the earth and everything on it" (or something along those lines). Well, that pretty much means rule over the earth.
no wonder a lot of people have no quams about destroying rainforests and slaughtering entire species of animals. i think this gives credence to the fact that this was an end of the world cult. we should live in harmony with this world (don't get me wrong, i'm no tree hugging hippy) because last time i heard we're quickly making most things around us go the way of the dodo (that was our fault too).

Originally posted by okinrus
Jesus said that he was sent from God too. You have to understand that both are talking about the Father.
........
1 Timothy 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


_____

I'm going to pull up this verse in the Young's Literal translation.

unbound.biola.edu


1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to

>>> a command of God our Saviour,

>> and of the Lord Jesus Christ our hope,

to Timotheus -- genuine child in faith:
______

OK, this is a letter written by Paul, or at least the author claims to be Paul in the first sentence.

Paul then draws a clear distinction between Jesus, who he considers "our hope" and "God our Saviour".

So, Paul is not calling Jesus the Savior.

In Paul's thinking, God is the Savior who gives commands. Jesus is, well, Jesus is...

Okay, let's look at the letter. Paul tells Timothy that he needs to pray for all men, including his enemies, the men in a position to persecute Christians:
_______

1 Timothy 2:2
for kings, and all who are in authority, that a quiet and peaceable life we may lead in all piety and gravity,

1 Timothy 2:3
for this [is] right and acceptable before God our Saviour, who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

1 Timothy 2:5

for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,

1 Timothy 2:6
who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --

1 Timothy 2:7
in regard to which I was set a preacher and apostle -- truth I say in Christ, I do not lie -- a teacher of nations, in faith and truth.
______________

The logic here is pretty clear.

(The words in parenthesis are implied, but not stated, in the Greek text.)

1 Timothy 2:5

for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,

So, the word "between" doesn't really appear in the Greek text.

It certainly seems, if you use the most basic logic, that a man could be a mediator between God and men... but God could not be a mediator between God and men.

How could God serve as mediator if he's one of the parties to the dispute?

You quoted this verse:

...the man Christ Jesus.

Clearly, in this letter, Paul (or whoever wrote it) said Jesus was a man. Doesn't say he was God, and clearly implies that he was NOT God because God couldn't be a mediator between God and other people.

This stuff is so simple - and no Christian ever gets it right.

You gave a quote from Titus. I'm not even going to bother with that one, since it was written about 50 years after Paul died.
Fr. Raymond E. Brown, is a member of the Vatican's Roman Pontifical Biblical Commission, and was described by Time magazine as "probably the premier Catholic scripture scholar in the U.S." 6 He has expressed his beliefs concerning the authorship of these epistles:

In his opinion, of the thirteen epistles which say that they were written by Paul, critical scholars have reached a near consensus that seven are Paul's: 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans.

>> Agreement that he did not write: 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus is about 90%
Ephesians is about 80%
Colossians is about 60%
2 Thessalonians is a slight majority.

great, i need to work on my tan

Originally posted by okinrus
Am I fanatical?

You are not a fanatic if you are able to consider for any length of time that your religion is not the dominate and true one. Especially if you have only had one religion in your whole life, you are a good candidate (I am not saying you have, but have you?). And posting one sided forums about God on the internet makes you another good candidate.

Not only is God full of love, He is also a gentleman, and also (although slow to anger) still able to become angry.

God is full of love becuase He sent His Son to die for your sins.

God is a gentleman because he won't barge into your life without you first asking Him.

God still become angry because He gave His son and you reject him

And if you deny God's inescapable love, you will escape into hell... wait a sec.

Originally posted by answers
Not only is God full of love, He is also a gentleman, and also (although slow to anger) still able to become angry.

God is full of love becuase He sent His Son to die for your sins.

God is a gentleman because he won't barge into your life without you first asking Him.

God still become angry because He gave His son and you reject him
________

Oh, God's going to become angry at me???

And what exactly is going to happen then?

If God is full of love, then why did God set things up so a man would have to die for my sins?

There is no God to barge into my life.

God does not exist.

God is a myth that men have invented. Most of the time, it is to con you out of your money.

I saw a minister on TV the other day. He said, "God wants you to give me money so God's work can be done."

Why would God need MY money to do HIS work?

Christianity is full of stupid ideas... not just the dying for sins, but the whole story.

If the world was going to end before I die, then I could see why someone else would have to die for my sins.

But if the world doesn't end before I die, then I get to die for my own sins.

Death is not pleasant.

If I have to die, then I think I've paid for my sins, and I don't need the Jesus guy to be my Savior.

On the other hand...


"Jesus died for your sins. Come to Las Vegas this weekend and get your money's worth."

You are not a fanatic if you are able to consider for any length of time that your religion is not the dominate and true one. Especially if you have only had one religion in your whole life, you are a good candidate (I am not saying you have, but have you?). And posting one sided forums about God on the internet makes you another good candidate.

There was a time when I doubted God's existance. I prayed for more faith and recieved many signs to believe.


Clearly, in this letter, Paul (or whoever wrote it) said Jesus was a man. Doesn't say he was God, and clearly implies that he was NOT God because God couldn't be a mediator between God and other people.

Jesus is man and God at the same time.


Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearance of savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself to deliver us from all lawlessness and so cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.

How do you interpret this passage. Doesn't it imply that Jesus is God?

I believe that the authorship problems are that Paul begain loosing his site and had a secretary write parts of them.

2 Peter 15
And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Pau, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

2 Peter 3 ends your speculation of the end of the world cult.

I love how once the Christians on this board realize that Riley has them beat, they start with the "God is good, God is love" bullshit, not backing it up with anything.

Thing is, while Riley is backing up his claims with difference sources, explanations and such, all you people can do is quote scripture. You're in a dichotomy, becuase on one hand you're taking the scriptures at face value, but at the same time twisting them into what you want to believe.

Stop ignoring the facts. If you can't top his argument, or argue your own point effectively, don't waste our time with the "Good is a gentleman" shit, becuase you're just spouting shit you've heard in church. There is no evidence to back it up, and the only evidence present is against it. Read up on it, follow the links Riley is providing, read from sites that AREN'T pro-Christian, broaden your horizons on this matter.

You say you've searched for God, but where the hell did you look? You looked at Biblestudy.org? Yeah, well, if the only place I ever looked for affordable clothing was on CalvinKline.com, then I'd believe that a $99 white t-shirt was a great deal. You have to take in info from ALL different places, guys, not just somewhere you're going to hear nothing but "God Exists."

JD

Okinrus - the mere fact that you "prayed" for guidance meant that you had already decided the path you were going to take BEFORE - otherwise you would not have prayed in the first place.

Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope, the appearance of savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself to deliver us from all lawlessness and so cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.

How do you interpret this passage. Doesn't it imply that Jesus is God?

Nowhere in that passage does it even remotely imply jesus is god.

Furthermore as i've now mentioned 1000 times, i fail to see how you could ignore Hebrews where god specifically says jesus is a priest for eternity and nothing more. Many other people held that rank, including melchizedek- another man who lives forever.

So, we have