Do you think the medical or scientific community will ever uncover what happens to humans after death, if anything? Are we even moving closer to an explanation or are we still in the dark about it? How does one explain near death experiences?

go buy a bulb
(= we're still in the dark)

I died once for over 3 minutes and was revived. There wasn't anything but blackness that I remember so as far as I'm concerned there's absolutly nothing after we die to look forward to. Many BELIEVE however in some form of afterlife and that's their BELIEF. Remember that what you BELIEVE isn't always a truth or fact.

Sure, we know what happens to humans after death, that field of study is called forensics. It depends on many factors, temperature, size of the body, cause of death, insect life,etc...

Maybe it is our desire to find meaning and purpose to our short lives that drives this question about the after death state.

Could it be that we already know the answer but refuse to accept it as it would make us feel the lack of ultimate purpose and meaning.

When we sleep at night and have no dreams could this not be simply the same as death?

Is unconsciousness a state of death?

Why do you think it isn't?

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
When we sleep at night and have no dreams could this not be simply the same as death?

I have no existential awareness when sleeping. I assume death
will be no different so I'm not too worried about it. What bothers
me is the short duration of time I have to experience life itself. It
also bothers me to see people struggling to enjoy that treasure.
Such is life!

:(

Just because dreams are not remembered doesn't mean that they don't eixst. The brain needs to dream every night, and does this, in order to stay somewhat sane.
I believe science will figure out death and the afterlife eventually, but that the road there is long.
Ask anybody who's working at a hospital, they all have stories from patients who have died and seen and heard what the other people in the room where doing and saying.

Originally posted by Yes
Just because dreams are not remembered doesn't mean that they don't eixst. The brain needs to dream every night, and does this, in order to stay somewhat sane.
I believe science will figure out death and the afterlife eventually, but that the road there is long.
Ask anybody who's working at a hospital, they all have stories from patients who have died and seen and heard what the other people in the room where doing and saying.

Just becasue dreams are remembered doesn't mean they do exist. The brain doesnt need to dream every night, and doesn't really, to stay sane.

I dont think that science will every prove or disprove an afterlife, or that they will figure out what happens at death, if anythin special at all.

Ask anyone whose worked at a hospitol! They will tell you how patients bullshit stories about dying, and hearing things in a room. It's not like any of this can't be explain by perfectly rational processes.

Just because dreams are not remembered doesn't mean that they don't eixst. The brain needs to dream every night, and does this, in order to stay somewhat sane.
I believe science will figure out death and the afterlife eventually, but that the road there is long.
Ask anybody who's working at a hospital, they all have stories from patients who have died and seen and heard what the other people in the room where doing and saying.

Just because dreams might be remembered doesn't mean that they might exist. The brain needs to dream every night, and does this, in order to stay somewhat sane.
Science might figure out death and the afterlife eventually, but that road is very long.
Ask anybody who's working at a hospital, they all have stories from patients who might have died and seen and heard what the other people in the room where doing and saying, maybe.

Are we discussing whether dreams are abstract or not?

Quantum:
Is unconsciousness a state of death?

Most absolutely not. Death by definition is very clinical- absolute zero on both an an electrocardiogram and an eeg. Diagnosed by two doctors usually.

Maybe:
The brain needs to dream every night, and does this, in order to stay somewhat sane
Not so. You can go on for months and years without dreaming and there are some people who never dream at all in a lifetime. What the brain does seem to need however is the quick workout of some jerky REM and the success in people having this has been linked to a 'healthy' brain overall.

But to get back to the topic- think about this fascinating slant on what NDE experinces really are. There's an Austrian doctor whose name escapes me who's done plenty of reaserch on whether or not these NDEs are the brain not reaching out to the heavens but recalling its own birth.

All of us do not remember what being in the womb was like much less what it was like coming out of it. But yet the brain is fully synapsed and functioning at that point.

Dark tunnel..
being pulled..
bright light at the end....
people there at the terimus to met you..............sounds like a going through the vaginal canal and meeting up with the doctor at the end of it in the operating room, no?

And we've all been born so this would explain why the experience is so similar. This memory would be the first and most easiest to lose back in the archives. Maybe these near death experiences are just the brain dying backwards and taking a trip back to that very first memory it has stored in its files.

See?


Now there's only that pesky problem of trying to explain those born prematurely or by Cecerian.

Originally posted by gendanken

Not so. You can go on for months and years without dreaming and there are some people who never dream at all in a lifetime. What the brain does seem to need however is the quick workout of some jerky REM and the success in people having this has been linked to a 'healthy' brain overall.


Actually, most agree that everyone dreams reguardless of remembering or being aware of doing so. There is some evidence to support this.

Combine what NLP tells us about eye movement corrisponding to different sences with the how rapidly the eye is moving and how time is 'compressed' in the dream state, and you have a reasonable hypothesis.

Nlp eye movement link:
http://home.fuse.net/jburik/em.html

Dreaming aside, if you don't recall anything, what happened ?

You just travelled X hours into the future. Time sure flies when
you're dead.

:eek:

No!, Maybe, have you devoted your presence here to follow me around?

Meph:
Actually, most agree that everyone dreams reguardless of remembering or being aware of doing so. There is some evidence to support this.
You are talking about lab sessions where subjects are taken in and induced into recalling a dream they swear they never had. I’m talking about those Guiness Book/ Discovery Channel/ Ripley’s Believe it or not freak shows holding records of years without sleep.

You've done nothing to prove that dreaming is universal. Example: of all species, its only mammals and birds that dream but not reptiles. These all show variants of REM activity and rebound REM much the same way we do after long stretches of no sleep, yet no evidence can link dream states influencing behavior in animals- even when the neocortex is stimulated the same ways researchers have done on human subjects.

I don't agree with biased results of reaserchers suggesting a dream really occured to someone who says they haven't dreamt. A scientist can have you thinking anything.

Combine what NLP tells us about eye movement corrisponding to different sences with the how rapidly the eye is moving and how time is 'compressed' in the dream state, and you have a reasonable hypothesis
I've read your link. The question now is what the devil does cognitive, conscious processing of data linked with lateral vs. veritcal eye movement have to do with dreaming being universal?

Hmm. So they've found that depending on where the eyes shift an observer can tell what a person is doing- hearing, thinking, etc. And some report that problems are easier to solve if they're instructed on how to move their eyeballs around when they're solving.

So........................what?

Originally posted by gendanken
Meph:

You are talking about lab sessions where subjects are taken in and induced into recalling a dream they swear they never had. I’m talking about those Guiness Book/ Discovery Channel/ Ripley’s Believe it or not freak shows holding records of years without sleep.

Strange things happen when a person is deprived of sleep. After a day or two, mood changes, e.g., depression, become apparent. As days go by, experimental subjects, in most cases, begin to hallucinate and are even prone to violence. The record for staying awake is 264 hours.

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/sleepDesign.htm

Yes I know that its a religous source, but it was the first on I found that mentioned what I was looking for. Read it. 11 days. Not years. The hallucinations and violence are well know and repeatedly observed phenomina. We'll get to the rest in a sec. First I want to clear up some things.

You've done nothing to prove that dreaming is universal. Example: of all species, its only mammals and birds that dream but not reptiles. These all show variants of REM activity and rebound REM much the same way we do after long stretches of no sleep, yet no evidence can link dream states influencing behavior in animals- even when the neocortex is stimulated the same ways researchers have done on human subjects.
Firstly, I never mentioned other species. I was only talking about humans. Secondly,
http://www.sleepdisorderchannel.net/stages/

REM sleep is a normal stage in any long sleep. A short nap? No, you probably won't hit it. A good 7 or 8 hours? You should noramlly hit it everytime if the sleep is at all restfull. Rem sleep isn't just a response to sleep deprevation. Subjects do tend to enter it faster after SD though.

I don't agree with biased results of reaserchers suggesting a dream really occured to someone who says they haven't dreamt. A scientist can have you thinking anything.

So instead of taking the evidence, listen to the subject? I am not aware of the activity in my nervous system that makes my muscles work. Does that mean it isn't happening?

I've read your link. The question now is what the devil does cognitive, conscious processing of data linked with lateral vs. veritcal eye movement have to do with dreaming being universal?

Easy. The eye movements aren't conscious. They happen as a result of thinking. (They can be learned to be controlled, but then again so can heart beat) When you picture an image, your eye naturally goes one way. A sound? They go another way. Now REM sleep you have eyes moving rapidly in different directions. Apply dreaming. You have visuals and sounds and kinesthetic parts involved, all taking place at a timeframe that is sped up relative to our own. (you can have a dream that feels like it was days long when it was only a few hours.) This would corispond to an increased speed of imagining when compared to conscious imaging. The increase in eye movement would corrispond to this.
Get it?

Hmm. So they've found that depending on where the eyes shift an observer can tell what a person is doing- hearing, thinking, etc. And some report that problems are easier to solve if they're instructed on how to move their eyeballs around when they're solving.

So........................what?

It's not so much hearing or seeing, as that wouldn't make much sense. It's more like what you are imagining or how you are thinking.

Clear things up?

Originally posted by Quantum Quack
Maybe it is our desire to find meaning and purpose to our short lives that drives this question about the after death state.

Could it be that we already know the answer but refuse to accept it as it would make us feel the lack of ultimate purpose and meaning.

When we sleep at night and have no dreams could this not be simply the same as death?

Is unconsciousness a state of death?

Why do you think it isn't?

I would say unconsciousness isn't the same as death. I've been unconscious and had some pretty wild dreams when I was. (That was when i was knocked out) IF you meant unconscious as in sleep, I would again say no. The difference is the brain activity and the continuing imput from your body. Even if I am not aware of anything, I am..you know? Hold a flame up to someone's hand when they are asleep. They will either move it or wake up. Not the same with a dead guy.

However, if you are talking about just the consciousness issue, sans body responses.
hmm...

Well, That is a tough one. The thing is this: We might now remember what goes on when we are asleep or unconscious, so how do we really know that its nothing. Get drunk enough and you won't remember shit and sometimes loose time too. Should we ask if drunkeness is the same as death too?

Nitpickin Dickin:
REM sleep is a normal stage in any long sleep. A short nap? No, you probably won't hit it. A good 7 or 8 hours? You should noramlly hit it everytime if the sleep is at all restfull. Rem sleep isn't just a response to sleep deprevation. Subjects do tend to enter it faster after SD though.



::gasp:: You don't say?!

On the average it takes some 90 minutes or so to achieve true REM but that is beside the point. You're after me because you muddled up dream with sleep.

Here's what it looks like:

Gendanken writes: You can go on for months and years without dreaming and there are some people who never dream at all in a lifetime. (fifth sentence, post 11-03-03 at 10:58 PM)

Muh-Mephura reads: You can go on for months and years without sleeping and there are some people who never sleep at all in a lifetime.


We're talking about dreaming, not sleeping. That's number one.

Here's number two:
So instead of taking the evidence, listen to the subject? I am not aware of the activity in my nervous system that makes my muscles work. Does that mean it isn't happening
The bone of contention here is whether or not dreaming is universal- put simpler- do we all dream? I said no we don't and there are people who claim never having had one. Yet reasearchers have been known to put these people under the microscope, having shown brain activity the way 'normal' folks do but claiming they've never dreamt, and in the end coming out with results that this person did in fact have a dream.

I'll tell you how it works. The subject is allowed to sleep. He undergoes the 90 minutes or so it takes to achieve the delta stage and barely minutes after getting there they will wake him up. Sure enough the person does not remember having had a dream, as always, but by means of what looks like psychiatrical sleight-of-hand we come out with a person who's gone all his life saying he's never had a dream now saying otherwise.

Reminds me of the homeless guy the local sheriff arrested because there was a reputation to mantain about being the city's shrewd detective. By means of suggestion the poor homeless bastard is led to believe and confess that he commited a murder he did not.

See or no see?

Firstly, I never mentioned other species. I was only talking about humans. Secondly,

You didn't have to, my dear. I referred to other species that do in fact show REM activity yet don't dream the way we do. Read closer: we're talking about whether dreaming is universal. We can't say it is solely based on REM showing up on the monitors.

This would corispond to an increased speed of imagining when compared to conscious imaging. The increase in eye movement would corrispond to this.
Get it?


Got it. This is what you should have done instead of throwing a link out there that said nothing of what you just said.

"You have visuals and sounds and kinesthetic parts involved, all taking place at a timeframe that is sped up relative to our own. (you can have a dream that feels like it was days long when it was only a few hours.)"

Beautiful.

When we are dead we rot, or are possibly mummified, is that so hard to understand? What happens to a computer when it is off? Can it still process information?

Well, by my own experiences, I remember a dream when I wake up half way through it, or if I started to come out of a deep sleep, but never wake up; um...sort of a half awake half asleep state.

I don't know what the discussion is really all about. It's generally excepted that everyone dreams! This is what makes the brain grow; it excites the neurons. I might add that warm-blooded animals reach REM. If you have a dog, watch it when it sleeps. Does your dog twitch, yelp, etc? I've watched ours plenty of times having dreams about god knows what and she did do these things.

People dream approximately 100 minutes a night. New born babies dream about 8 hours a day.

I've had dreams where I'll wake up in the middle of the dream, go to the washroom, drink of water, etc. I'll go back to bed, fall asleep, and when I reach REM, I'll start my dream off where it was interrupted!

As a boy, I dreamed of falling off buildings, and I did impact on the ground. Plenty of times I might add, and what a strange sensation that was!

Originally posted by gendanken
Nitpickin Dickin:


::gasp:: You don't say?!

Actually it was you who said that it wasn't. Quote you:

"These all show variants of REM activity and rebound REM much the same way we do after long stretches of no sleep..."

Sugesting a link between REM and SD, when REM is a part of normal cycles.

On the average it takes some 90 minutes or so to achieve true REM but that is beside the point. You're after me
because you muddled up dream with sleep.

Nope. THis is turning out bad for you, m'lady.

Here's what it looks like:

Gendanken writes: You can go on for months and years without dreaming and there are some people who never dream at all in a lifetime. (fifth sentence, post 11-03-03 at 10:58 PM)

Muh-Mephura reads: You can go on for months and years without sleeping and there are some people who never sleep at all in a lifetime.

Or, we can look at the post that I quoted in which you wrote:

"I’m talking about those Guiness Book/ Discovery Channel/ Ripley’s Believe it or not freak shows holding records of years without sleep."

Without what?? I do believe you wrote sleep there.
The blame isn't on my reading, my dear. It's on your writting.



We're talking about dreaming, not sleeping. That's number one.

Tell yourself that, since you seem to be the one confusing the two. Secondly, its a bit hard to have the one without the other.

Here's number two:

The bone of contention here is whether or not dreaming is universal- put simpler- do we all dream? I said no we don't and there are people who claim never having had one. Yet reasearchers have been known to put these people under the microscope, having shown brain activity the way 'normal' folks do but claiming they've never dreamt, and in the end coming out with results that this person did in fact have a dream.

I'll tell you how it works. The subject is allowed to sleep. He undergoes the 90 minutes or so it takes to achieve the delta stage and barely minutes after getting there they will wake him up. Sure enough the person does not remember having had a dream, as always, but by means of what looks like psychiatrical sleight-of-hand we come out with a person who's gone all his life saying he's never had a dream now saying otherwise.

Unless delta is REM (Can't remember right now as my mind has been stolen by very tempting visual prospects), you have a slight problem. Dreaming occurs in REM sleep. IF they are the same (delta and REM) I'm an ass and a moron. If not, you've got some revision to do.

Reminds me of the homeless guy the local sheriff arrested because there was a reputation to mantain about being the city's shrewd detective. By means of suggestion the poor homeless bastard is led to believe and confess that he commited a murder he did not.

See or no see?

How that relates? Nope, don't see..or I could just be being difficult. You decide.


You didn't have to, my dear. I referred to other species that do in fact show REM activity yet don't dream the way we do. Read closer: we're talking about whether dreaming is universal. We can't say it is solely based on REM showing up on the monitors.

Of course the other animals that hti that don't think like we do. Also, ever watch a dog sleep? Looks like dreaming to me. Now I don't think we could exactly ask them, but...
Like I said though, no other animal's brain works like ours, so who can we actually draw a comparison.
Apples and oranges?

Got it. This is what you should have done instead of throwing a link out there that said nothing of what you just said.

"You have visuals and sounds and kinesthetic parts involved, all taking place at a timeframe that is sped up relative to our own. (you can have a dream that feels like it was days long when it was only a few hours.)"

Beautiful.

Thank you. I thought it was pretty self explanitory, but i guess I was wrong. I do that alot though.

Meh:
Actually it was you who said that it wasn't. Quote you:

"These all show variants of REM activity and rebound REM much the same way we do after long stretches of no sleep..."

Diablos.

Typos and the inanity of you not calling the boo boo out the first time.
Quick recap:

"You are talking about lab sessions where subjects are taken in and induced into recalling a dream they swear they never had. I’m talking about those Guiness Book/ Discovery Channel/ Ripley’s Believe it or not freak shows holding records of years without sleep.


Here's where you squint for the typo. It should have read:
".....I’m talking about those Guiness Book/ Discovery Channel/ Ripley’s Believe it or not freak shows holding records of years without dreaming"


Vainglory.

The blame isn't on my reading, my dear. It's on your writting.

Writing, fellow. W-r-i-t-i-n-g.

Unless delta is REM.....

Sho nuff.....
(Can't remember right now as my mind has been stolen by very tempting visual prospects)
.......Whatever are you talking about................

you have a slight problem. Dreaming occurs in REM sleep. IF they are the same (delta and REM) I'm an ass and a moron. If not, you've got some revision to do

Done and did. In the spirit of the the ghetto-fab proletariat: BOOYA.

How that relates? Nope, don't see..or I could just be being difficult. You decide.

The power of suggestion. Don't see it? Reasons why hint at the double p's: petulant puerco.

Anyway, back to what I concidered fascinating and its a wonder you did not latch on.

The ideas of NDE's being the brain dying backwards to its first memories of birth and not some kind of mystical out of body experience.

That first memory of birth lies there in the archives like a dormant plasmid, and under severe stress is triggered back to mind again. It would be experienced symbolically since the dying would be the same dreamlike semi-conscioussness of the generic dream.

Slow motion.
Intensity.
Imagery.
Emotional upheavals.

Look, there's always something to be said about explanations- mystical religious ones have proved to be roads to nowhere but scientific slant of the birth experience being encoded in the brain and only retriavalbe when a thinking brain is dying on itself has a simple beauty in it that I like- we've all had that experience.

So quite naturally the illustrations of them would all be the same: dark tunnels, bright lights.........yadda ya.

Almost like general relativity, no?

Originally posted by spidergoat
When we are dead we rot, or are possibly mummified, is that so hard to understand? What happens to a computer when it is off? Can it still process information?

That doesn't explain anything. You can't compare an inatimate object to human anatomy. People who are considered dead (meaning no brain activity) at times have occurences where they can see what's going on with their body and have recollections of people, places, etc.

Originally posted by gendanken
.......Whatever are you talking about................

Someone I know has mentioned the idea of sending me some pictures of a very interesting nature. I'm just captivated with the idea of getting to see them is all.

Anyway, back to what I concidered fascinating and its a wonder you did not latch on.

The ideas of NDE's being the brain dying backwards to its first memories of birth and not some kind of mystical out of body experience.

That first memory of birth lies there in the archives like a dormant plasmid, and under severe stress is triggered back to mind again. It would be experienced symbolically since the dying would be the same dreamlike semi-conscioussness of the generic dream.

Oh..this. My thoughts? Sounds plausable. Right now it's just another theory though. Somewhere I heard that they had located the areas in the brain responsible for the light and all that of NDE's. Shares location with the center that handles..'spiritual' maters.

Slow motion.
Intensity.
Imagery.
Emotional upheavals.

Look, there's always something to be said about explanations- mystical religious ones have proved to be roads to nowhere but scientific slant of the birth experience being encoded in the brain and only retriavalbe when a thinking brain is dying on itself has a simple beauty in it that I like- we've all had that experience.

So quite naturally the illustrations of them would all be the same: dark tunnels, bright lights.........yadda ya.

Almost like general relativity, no?

I was thinking more like string theory.
Anyway, As I said up there, it sounds plausable. I am not up on the brain physiology as perhaps I should be.

That doesn't explain anything. You can't compare an inatimate object to human anatomy. People who are considered dead (meaning no brain activity) at times have occurences where they can see what's going on with their body and have recollections of people, places, etc.

I respectfully disagree. A computer is animate when it is working, we are just a little more complicated. I think it's a good analogy. Besides, you have to admit, If you almost died, you cannot be an objective observer, at the least, they entered a dreamlike, unconcious state typical of accident victims. Also, if they did have recollections, then they couldn't have had no brain activity, could they? You cannot know WHEN they had these thoughts. I think near death experiences have everything to do with how the brain works under stressfull situations. There are three hallucinogenic substances produced within the brain. One of them, DMT, is produced in larger quantities than normal by the pineal gland under extreme conditions.

You cannot know WHEN they had these thoughts. I think near death experiences have everything to do with how the brain works under stressfull situations.

Which is what makes it tempting to call it all hogwash altogether. I've undergone hypnogogic situations where I swear there were ants crawling all over my bedpillow but you and I know this is bullshit considering I was dead drunk and going through tough times then.

But these folks can describe to you operating tables, and nurses and things said long after the cardiographs showed clinincal death. Some have detailed being in the mourge, the mortician, what he did and did not do. Spooky bullshit.