OK..
Just finished reading this book (credits go to Xev) ;) ..
Probably the most interesting thing about this book is the last passage:

.O you who have wept tears uppon hearing Virtue's miseries; you who have been moved to sympathy for the woe-ridden Justine; the while forgiving the perhaps too heavy brushstrokes we have found ourselves compelled to employ, may you at least extract from this story the same moral which determined Madame de Lorsange! May you be convinced, with her, that true happiness is to be found nowhere but in Virtue's womb, and that if, in keeping with designs it is not for us to fathom, God permits that it be persecuted on Earth, it is so that Virtue may be compensated by Heaven's most dazzling rewards.

It basically conflicts with what his characters were arguing for in most of this book, with what Sade was trying to insinuate.

My version of this is:
As the last passage says, "O you who have wept tears uppon hearing Virtue's miseries; you who have been moved to sympathy for the woe-ridden Justine;", the paragraph is meant only for people who are "virtous and just", so they can stay like "virtous" and be used by the other vicious people..

Any other interpretations?

shit

my fave jackoff book when i was 11

oh wait maybe it was the mugwump

"A Near East Mugwump sits naked on a barstool covered in pink silk. He licks warm honey from a crystal goblet with a long black tongue. His genitals are perfectly formed-circumcised cock, black shiny pubic hairs. His lips are thin and blue like the lips of a penis, his eyes blank with insect calm. The Mugwump has no liver, maintaining himself exclusive on sweets...

The Mugwump slips the noose over [a slender blond youth]'s head and tightens the knot carressingly behind the left ear. The boy's penis is retracted, his balls tight...

Suddenly the Mugwump pushes the boy forward into space, free of his cock. He steadies the boy with and on the hip bones, reaches up with stylized hieroglyphic hands and snaps the boy's neck. A shudder passes through the boy's body. His penis rises in three great surges pulling his pelvis up, ejaculates immediately... A sharp turd shoots clean out his ass. Farts shake his slender body. Skyrockets burst in green clusters across a great river. He hears the faint put-put of a motor boat in jungle twilight...

The Mugwump pulls the boy back onto his cock. The boy squirms, impaled like a speared fish. The Mugwump swings on the boy's back, his body contracting in fluid waves. Blood flows down the boy's chin from his mouth, half-open, sweet, and sulky in death. The Mugwump falls with a fluid, sated plop."

yum



oh wait, it was "oh wicked wanda"
ok ok i did it to all of em!

spookz:

You know, I've never seen Sade as a writer of erotica. He's too busy trying to fuck with people's heads.

Sade is mostly using sex as a rhetorical device. How far can I push things?
Well, yeah, and probably recording a few of his own fantasies.

ndrs:
Glad you liked Justine. My take on it is a bit *cough* demented *cough* probably not exactly what the author intended.

Any other interpretations?

Justine is Sade.

I actually realized this before that stupid Jean Paulham realized this, even though he wrote an essay about it before I was born.

No, seriously.

"Indeed, my dear friend, I rather believe that your intention would be to inculcate in me the same respect for your petty divinities that you so devoutly feel for them. And just because you go down and crawl before that pack, you would require that I do it too! that a ***, that a ***, that a ***, that a ***, that a *** and *** were my gods just as they are yours! If, unfortunately, you harbor such a notion in your head, get rid of it, I beg of you. Misfortune will never defile me:

Despite my chains, I have never adopted the heart of a slave.
(Les Arsacides)

And I never will. These wretched chains, yes, were they to drag me into the grave, you would still find me exactly the same. I have the misfortune to have received from heaven a strong soul that has never known how to stoop and never will."

--Marquis de Sade, in his Grande Lettre

"So be it, I repent nothing, I shall never know the least remorse so long as my soul is pure."
--Marquis de Sade, 'Justine'

I don't believe Sade ever exhorted either good or evil. Virtue? Vice? He advocates both.

Sade has no real philosophical system. He's a content athiest, but feels the need to dare God to "avenge Himself". He doesn't know how to stoop, but begs for money from - well, everyone. Hell, he gives his name to the dominent side of sadomasochism and writes letters to his lovers begging to be allowed to grovel at their feet.

de Sade had no fixed ideals, either as a philosopher or as a human. To look for a message in his books is to miss the point.

He's a pure nihlist, quite possibly the only pure nihlist there is. He attacks the ideals of virtue to strengthen it? Bullshit. He attacks the ideal of virtue because that ideal let him down, because the "good and the just" sent him to prison.

His new ediface? "Nature supports vice, act as nature prompts and you will be rewarded"

But he also attacks and satirizes this new ideal. Have you read "Juliette"? Juliette, the heroine, both can have fun torching orphanages, and then turn around to advocate liberty and for the starving masses to arise and free themselves.

de Sade writes a prototype of master-slave morality and then satirizes the "masters" ten pages later. You really can't get any more nihlistic than that.

Right, no ranting.

I disagree with your estimate of Justine. Is de Sade telling the Justine's of the world to "Suffer on courageous millions!", in order so that their tormenters will have an easier job of it? Then why does Justine have her ideals mocked in the attempt to disprove them? Why not leave them untouched?

"Justine" is Sade's nihlistic wank book, to do the book an injustice.

Even the ending -- Juliette seduces and murders her long lost father in Justine's companion book. Then all of a sudden she turns into Mother fucking Theresa after hearing Justine's story of woe. An ending which, incidentally, changes in every book. Yeah, it is a convention of the Gothic novel, but still....

Rambling again.

Like all good nihlists, you can read into de Sade whatever the fuck you like. I, personally, think that it is a post-feminist deconstruction of the patriarichal totality of gender....er, right.

The point of this is that de Sade is not a creator of a new, "evil" value system. He is a destroyer of the old one, and purely a destroyer.

Yet this destruction should impell us to create anew. This is one of the principle uses of de Sade (besides self analysis), and where he really stands out as a philosopher.

If 'Justine' explodes the Christian myth of virtue rewarded, and 'Juliette' explodes the Enlightment myth of man as a naturally good being, so much the better for us. This just clears a path.

Face to face with human evil in a universe without hope of punishment or reward, we are left, berefit of any illusion or hope, to make our way through Sade's world.

But this is precisely where the Divine Marquis does us the highest favor. He presents a field on which to test the Will. Sade may be a Luciferian, eternally defient, but he is also Satan, the tempter and devourer.

It is a test, our test and Justine's test, to make a path through this universe. If virtue is punished and vice rewarded, this is not an indictment of virtue. This is an indictment of reward and punishment systems.

Sade not only helps us break the values of Judeo-Christian (i.e slave) morality, he helps us learn to exalt our Will beyond the petty considerations of reward and punishment.

Pull the lever, get a pellet. Don't pull the lever, and get a shock.

Is that the best we can do? After 3 billion years of evolution, shall we still be limited to stimulus/response?

Or should we overcome this?

(HA! Betcha didn't guess that I'd start ranting about ubermensch!)

Justine is no overman. Neither is her sister, but if either is closer, a woman who could realize where her ideals are taking her, and yet still abide by those ideals, deserves consideration as one who walks that path.

Yes, Justine is stupid, and yes, her values are nigh and they are not really even hers.

"A sign of strong character, when once the resolution has been taken, to shut the ear to even the best counter-arguments. Occasionally, therefore, a will to stupidity."

But the Will she shows, that - that is beautiful.

The moral of the immoral story?

"I love him who makes his virtue his addiction and his catastrophe: for his virtue's sake he wants to live on and to live no longer."
--Nietzsche

Hope some of that made sense. :)

xev

i dose and get rewired. that the only time my head gets fucked.
(i think)

;)

spookz:

'Guess it's a matter of taste. de Sade's sex scenes can get damned boring, and he uses way too many identifying clauses.

If you can get over that, de Sade is also fucking hilarious.

"Oh, fuck me, what a sight!" cries Clairwil, wallowing amidst these heaps of dead bodies; "quick, let's all three frig one another while we watch the little bitch suffer."
"Let us take off our clothes," Durand proposes, "with naked flesh we must roll on this carrion, the sensation is voluptuous."
"It occurs to me" said I, "that these bones, shaped as they are, might serve in the stead of pricks."

Really no wonder that he's hailed as a father of Surrealism.

:D

thats hilarious

xev i was a kid. everything turned me on

He was a fucking genius, wasn't he? :D

I gotta get my grubby paws on one of his books.

Zero:

Recommend you start with this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802132189/alternabookA/002-3409620-1492060

A selection of his writings, plus an essay, plus a few of his prison letters.

"Juliette" is good too, but takes a strong stomach at times, and takes forever to read. Also, try some of his short stories:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1559704322/ref=pd_sxp_elt_l1/002-3409620-1492060

Some would say to start with "120 Days of Sodom". Don't. It's supposedly one of his best works, but I find it rather dry and the sex murders can get on one's nerves.

Uh...on second thought, maybe no...:bugeye:

OK I know it's an old thread.. and I should have left it.. Or I can't.. whatever. But I can't think of philosophy some times, due to variable reasons..
I start from the end.. I am feeling backwards today.

"A sign of strong character, when once the resolution has been taken, to shut the ear to even the best counter-arguments. Occasionally, therefore, a will to stupidity."

But the Will she shows, that - that is beautiful.

The moral of the immoral story?

"I love him who makes his virtue his addiction and his catastrophe: for his virtue's sake he wants to live on and to live no longer."
--Nietzsche

Yes.. It depends if you value strong character. I noticed the strong characters are the ignorant ones. I think a person has to be free from resolution (thus ever-learning?) to be truely strong.

The will she shows.. is beautiful? Especially beautiful to those men who used her. -- I think de Sade tried to show it as the will to be a slave. Do you believe/agree some people have it?
OK, maybe you are right it is beautiful, meaning that other people find it appealing - they can use this will for their purpose.

Hmm.. But I don't understand why Nietsche loved it. :) Maybe because a person who has a strong will is usually blind, and can be used easily.. Now I am getting confused :)

But this is precisely where the Divine Marquis does us the highest favor. He presents a field on which to test the Will. Sade may be a Luciferian, eternally defient, but he is also Satan, the tempter and devourer.

It is a test, our test and Justine's test, to make a path through this universe. If virtue is punished and vice rewarded, this is not an indictment of virtue. This is an indictment of reward and punishment systems.

Sade not only helps us break the values of Judeo-Christian (i.e slave) morality, he helps us learn to exalt our Will beyond the petty considerations of reward and punishment.

Pull the lever, get a pellet. Don't pull the lever, and get a shock.

Is that the best we can do? After 3 billion years of evolution, shall we still be limited to stimulus/response?

Or should we overcome this?

I doubt we can overcome this.. Our brain is based on reward/punishment.
Nietsche wanted to create overcome this. I think he only laid the framework for it, while the only person that should overcome this, should be the superman.

Do you think you can logically overcome this?


I don't believe Sade ever exhorted either good or evil. Virtue? Vice? He advocates both.

I would say, vice is only lack of virtue (regard/respect/compassion for others).

I was talking to someone who was into Aquinas, and he was telling me how he believes bad is only lack of good (besides other bullshit, like "god is all the good stuff"). He finished studying Philosphy as a degree and that's all he came up with. :)

So I think if you would overcome virtue and vice, you would end up being vice (without virtue). :)


I disagree with your estimate of Justine. Is de Sade telling the Justine's of the world to "Suffer on courageous millions!", in order so that their tormenters will have an easier job of it? Then why does Justine have her ideals mocked in the attempt to disprove them? Why not leave them untouched?

Because he likes messing around and creating anarchy.

Obviously, neither the Justine's will be happy with being waked up to their reality.. nor the vice people being exposed with their "evil". Maybe that's why de Sade got prosecuted.

OK.. but I haven't read Juliette (yet.. I will try to obtain it, but it's difficult). I can't really comment more on de Sade.

ndrs:
I start from the end.. I am feeling backwards today.

Era uoy?

Yes.. It depends if you value strong character. I noticed the strong characters are the ignorant ones. I think a person has to be free from resolution (thus ever-learning?) to be truely strong.

But Justine almost - note almost- comes close to the overman in the way she exalts her Will beyond the consequences of her actions.

Am I understood? She knows she will be hurt, but she does what she does anyway.

Almost like being in love.

The will she shows.. is beautiful? Especially beautiful to those men who used her.

Maybe, but they always engage her in some philosophic discourse trying to prove her wrong either shortly before or shortly after they rape her.

It's funny, really. "Before we torture you, how about we debate the existance of God?"

-- I think de Sade tried to show it as the will to be a slave. Do you believe/agree some people have it?

Sure. Any religious person who knows that God doesn't exist has it.

Actually, I think anyone with a strong will tends to end up as a slave to something or somebody. Justine chose Christianity and Virtue. de Sade chose Nature and Man. Hell, I suppose Nietzsche chose the Overman.

*Xev pauses a moment to realize what she's saying*

Oh....shit.

OK, maybe you are right it is beautiful, meaning that other people find it appealing - they can use this will for their purpose.

No, I find it beautiful because it reflects something I possess.

"The courage never to submit or yeild
And what is not to be overcome?"

Justine has it, the Luciferian spark. I believe I have it.

The difference between Justine and myself (and one of the reasons I'm indebted to the Marquis) is that I have the sense to protect myself. But self-protection is it's own handicap. You become paranoid.

Hmm.. But I don't understand why Nietsche loved it. Maybe because a person who has a strong will is usually blind, and can be used easily.. Now I am getting confused

Zarathrusra came across the same problem - he found it beneath him to guard against being decieved, so he opened himself up to being decieved.

Maybe because that's what happens to the Justines of the world. Like "Flies in the Marketplace", they'll always be attacked in some way by their inferiours.

"Oh lamb of God, won't you grant us
Nothing's gonna change the world
Nothing's gonna change the world"

Do you think you can logically overcome this?

Yes. I think if I bind my Will to my logic, and my ability to follow that logic, I have a fair shot of doing so.

The question is how much I try to protect myself. I've no inclination to end up a Justine and I've no inclination to live in fear.

There must be a middle course.

I would say, vice is only lack of virtue (regard/respect/compassion for others).

Possibly. But I lack regard and respect for most others, and yet I don't act like a Sadean protagonist.

Because he likes messing around and creating anarchy.

*Grins maliciously*

Obviously.

Obviously, neither the Justine's will be happy with being waked up to their reality.. nor the vice people being exposed with their "evil". Maybe that's why de Sade got prosecuted.

Maybe. I really think Justine would have had a shot of being the overman if somebody had given the chick a gun and shown her how to fucking use it!

Perhaps the difference between her and I. I know how to use a gun.

Oh, and yes, of course if she had not been inculcated with the perverse ideology of death and slavery known as Christianity.

*Edit*

Wow, post 4600. I have no life. :D

But Justine almost - note almost- comes close to the overman in the way she exalts her Will beyond the consequences of her actions.

Am I understood? She knows she will be hurt, but she does what she does anyway.

Almost like being in love.
Ok.. I think she is quite a lot different from overman, overman at least would learn from its mistakes - it would be down to earth.

And really, I doubt life of blind dedication is the key anymore. It is an easy way out of course. I doubt Nietsche even said anything about it.

Sure. Any religious person who knows that God doesn't exist has it.

Actually, I think anyone with a strong will tends to end up as a slave to something or somebody. Justine chose Christianity and Virtue. de Sade chose Nature and Man. Hell, I suppose Nietzsche chose the Overman.
Yes, even the free end up being slaves to their freedom!
No, I find it beautiful because it reflects something I possess.

"The courage never to submit or yeild
And what is not to be overcome?"

Justine has it, the Luciferian spark. I believe I have it.
Hmm.. I think there is a difference between submit to other people and submitting to natural forces (instead of blowing against the wind). You can escape one more or less, you can't escape the other.
The difference between Justine and myself (and one of the reasons I'm indebted to the Marquis) is that I have the sense to protect myself. But self-protection is it's own handicap. You become paranoid.
The best way to protect yourself - I found -is not to have what other people want.. At least not show that part..
Maybe because that's what happens to the Justines of the world. Like "Flies in the Marketplace", they'll always be attacked in some way by their inferiours.
Inferiors to Justine? They exist? :)
Now I am amazed..
Common.. Justine was fighting for some lost/impossible cause. That is probably worse than not doing anything at all.
Justine wasn't bitten by flies! :) She was bitten by her own goal, which is logically impossible.

Possibly. But I lack regard and respect for most others, and yet I don't act like a Sadean protagonist. Why not? Just because you don't get turned on by seeing blood sprinkle? Or because you are a well-trained social being? :)

Ok, say you could get 10000$ for doing something which would cause significant damage to another (say) 10000 people . They wouldn't know it was you. Would you do it?

ndrs:Do you think you can logically overcome this?
Xev:
Yes. I think if I bind my Will to my logic, and my ability to follow that logic, I have a fair shot of doing so.

The question is how much I try to protect myself. I've no inclination to end up a Justine and I've no inclination to live in fear.

There must be a middle course.
What do you imagine it would look like if you would overcome it?
Maybe you would have nothing to fear.
I'll try to explain my opinion in my next reply.. I was just thinking about it, but I lost it...

ndrs:
Ok.. I think she is quite a lot different from overman, overman at least would learn from its mistakes - it would be down to earth.

Yeah. It's kinda a flaw in the Marquis' style, nothing in her situations changes but you ask yourself "Gee, I wonder how she's going to be raped this time"

It really gets repetitive. The reader is left to yawn "Oh bother, she's being raped and tortured again. Who woulda thunk it?"

You kinda want Justine to have consensual sex with SOMEBODY just to break the monotony.

And really, I doubt life of blind dedication is the key anymore. It is an easy way out of course. I doubt Nietsche even said anything about it.

No, it isn't.
Justine, for all her purity of Will, is really, really fucking stupid. You read the book, you feel sorry for her, but you also want to hit her.

Yes, even the free end up being slaves to their freedom!

Not exactly freedom, but strength or power.

"A man like me cannot live without a hobbyhorse, a consuming passion--in Schiller's words a tyrant. I have found my tyrant, and in his service I know no limits. My tyrant is psychology."

-- Sigmund Freud

We may have different tyrants, but I believe I know exactly what Freud meant. You have an ability to have power, you want to use that power. And there's something else, almost the need to be possessed by an all-consuming passion or two.

Hmm.. I think there is a difference between submit to other people and submitting to natural forces (instead of blowing against the wind). You can escape one more or less, you can't escape the other.

I don't submit to anything. Gravity? Why, I bypass that every time I go on a plane. It's just a facet of the universe that I an integral part of.
Other people is a given, of course. I don't believe I've submitted to the will of another human since I was very, very young.

The best way to protect yourself - I found -is not to have what other people want.. At least not show that part..

Justine is a beautiful woman. She can't change that. Sometimes a girl can hide her value as a sex object and elude rape, sometimes she has to learn to fight. Justine never learned to fight.

I understand.

Inferiors to Justine? They exist?
Now I am amazed..

Her tormenters. I don't see anything like her strength in them. They're amusing for a moment, but have no real depth.

Common.. Justine was fighting for some lost/impossible cause. That is probably worse than not doing anything at all.

Disagree, but then, I'm an absurdist.
Life is impossible.

Justine wasn't bitten by flies! She was bitten by her own goal, which is logically impossible.

She was! If she had not been brainwashed by that ridiculous slave religion, and if she had not been twisted by misfortune.

You can learn from misfortune, but you really can't teach anyone from misfortune, only by pleasure. At least not an enduring lesson, of course you can enforce your Will but I'm not talking about obedience, I'm talking about truely learning something.

I'm not making sense. *Smiles ruefully*

Christ, if I could get my hands on someone like that and have them as disciple....

Why not? Just because you don't get turned on by seeing blood sprinkle? Or because you are a well-trained social being?

Because I don't enjoy seeing interesting people suffer.
Of course, stupid people really should suffer. But then, I think I would not like that. I'd rather just have them exterminated.

Ok, say you could get 10000$ for doing something which would cause significant damage to another (say) 10000 people . They wouldn't know it was you. Would you do it?

Probably. Do I know these people? Do I get to bargain for more money? How much work do I have to do?

PM me if you're interested. ;)

What do you imagine it would look like if you would overcome it?
Maybe you would have nothing to fear.

Possibly. Since we're discussing Justine, example is apropros:

You have no idea what it's like being female. One is taught an almost instinctive fear of dark alleyways, secluded spots with strangers, etc.

I walk alone in my town late at night, I already have a hand reaching to my stiletto.

Fearing harm means that you're already being controlled by the person who might inflict it. Well not like that, more, you're a slave to fear. And that's no way to live.

Blah blah blah, I'm kinda not thinking horribly rationally now.

No, it isn't.
Justine, for all her purity of Will, is really, really fucking stupid. You read the book, you feel sorry for her, but you also want to hit her.

Yes, you want to hit her because she represents your female species as weak... :D And you probably feel sorry for her. Maybe you should concentrate on Juliette. She's a better example. :)
Where as I, look forward to the next chapter where her stupidness gets her abused and feel kind of happy when she gets. But then again, I'm evil... :mad:

We may have different tyrants, but I believe I know exactly what Freud meant. You have an ability to have power, you want to use that power. And there's something else, almost the need to be possessed by an all-consuming passion or two.
Yes.. I think everybody needs to be consumed by something.. Be it quest for power, a quest for slave-master, art, science, pleasure. It is interesting what makes different people choose a different passion.
I doubt a person even needs a strong will for it. One needs a strong will for breaking out of these consumations (?). and to keep one despite circumstances (like Justine).

Hmm.. I wonder whether it was a book by Freud about neurosis types? I believe it was called self-analysis or maybe psychoanalysis. It was an interesting book with a listing of various neurosis types, like need for power, need for affection, etc.

I don't submit to anything. Gravity? Why, I bypass that every time I go on a plane. It's just a facet of the universe that I an integral part of.
Other people is a given, of course. I don't believe I've submitted to the will of another human since I was very, very young.
Invariably, you couldn't bypass the fact that your body needs food. Anyways, what I meant to say, that the perfect world Justine was imagining couldn't exist, since it was a contradiction to itself. I think, Sade explained it somewhere in Justine. Anyways, this is drifting off..

About the spark.. Don't you think any person can accumulate enough will to do anything as long as the conditions are right?
Her tormenters. I don't see anything like her strength in them. They're amusing for a moment, but have no real depth.
No real depth? I guess it depends what side of them you are talking about. They had some good philosophical thoughts sometimes. :)
What I don't see, how anything about Justine had any depth at all. She was like a machine set with one idea with no brain functioning.

BTW, as I noticed, enjoying oneself is very important for Sade in general. Maybe it is because of the time it is written it.

Life is impossible.
Eh? :bugeye: Wats dat supose to meen?
You are alive, so it is possible.
Probably. Do I know these people? Do I get to bargain for more money? How much work do I have to do?

PM me if you're interested.
heh. no.. I would have done it myself!

But let's say you have to remote control an airplane into Pentagon again. You are capable of doing it and you know you won't get caught? :)
And say it would only be 300$ you would get from it.
You can learn from misfortune, but you really can't teach anyone from misfortune, only by pleasure. At least not an enduring lesson, of course you can enforce your Will but I'm not talking about obedience, I'm talking about truely learning something.
Yes.. the logic is abit messed up in this sentence. Anyways, I think I know what you mean. I think you can make it an enduring lesson by further analysing the situation and taking some action against it immediately.
Christ, if I could get my hands on someone like that and have them as disciple....
If I could get my hands on her nice ass..... :p
oops, I'm dreaming again..
You have no idea what it's like being female. One is taught an almost instinctive fear of dark alleyways, secluded spots with strangers, etc.

I walk alone in my town late at night, I already have a hand reaching to my stiletto.
I heard a couple of stories that scared me here in London even.
Well, it's kind of good for us - it gives a guy an excuse to escort a girl home. :)
Fearing harm means that you're already being controlled by the person who might inflict it. Well not like that, more, you're a slave to fear. And that's no way to live.

A part of your freedom is taken from you. You get that in life no matter what your gender. You get that from the boss, because he could fire you. Your parents, because they can kick you out the house, etc....
It's more like learning to live with it.
Like change what you can't accept, accept what you can't change..
THat's one of my favourites.
---

Shit.. this post got quite long and I spent 40 mins writing it.. :rolleyes: I didn't even notice though..

ndrs:
Yes, you want to hit her because she represents your female species as weak...

More because she's STUPID. I hate stupid people. They must all be exterminated.

*Pauses thoughtfully*

But then, we do need someone to mop the floors and drive garbage trucks.

And you probably feel sorry for her. Maybe you should concentrate on Juliette. She's a better example.

Juliette herself is somewhat amusing, but she has no real strength of Will, no pride. If I had to read another scene with her simpering to some "eeeevil" person, I would have puked.

However, she's damned funny! One of the most amusing books I've ever read.

"Man is weak. The pious are weaker than most, especially when you offer them boys"

Where as I, look forward to the next chapter where her stupidness gets her abused and feel kind of happy when she gets. But then again, I'm evil...

Meh, it gets soooo predictable.

Yes.. I think everybody needs to be consumed by something.. Be it quest for power, a quest for slave-master, art, science, pleasure. It is interesting what makes different people choose a different passion.
I doubt a person even needs a strong will for it. One needs a strong will for breaking out of these consumations (?). and to keep one despite circumstances (like Justine).

Likely. But I've noticed it most often in the strong willed. Perhaps because those who are not strong willed end up slaves to alien values and never find their own.

*Smiles*
Need for power is a neurosis? Power is life itself.

About the spark.. Don't you think any person can accumulate enough will to do anything as long as the conditions are right?

Maybe, but I thought the whole concept of Will was the ability to do something even if the conditions were decidedly unfavourable?

Going back to my surpassing of the punishment/reward conditioning through Will.

No real depth? I guess it depends what side of them you are talking about. They had some good philosophical thoughts sometimes.

Nothing much, philosophically. His villains in his other novels are much more fun.

They're caricatures of "evil".

What I don't see, how anything about Justine had any depth at all. She was like a machine set with one idea with no brain functioning.

Dunno, I kinda like her. She's pretty much my complete opposite. Maybe that's why....but she has a certain strength that I admire.

BTW, as I noticed, enjoying oneself is very important for Sade in general. Maybe it is because of the time it is written it.

Isn't it for everyone? Besides power, isn't pleasure one of the root motivations of mankind?

Eh? Wats dat supose to meen?
You are alive, so it is possible.

Sorry. :) Wasn't making much sense.
Eternal life is impossible, thus life is Absurd.

But let's say you have to remote control an airplane into Pentagon again. You are capable of doing it and you know you won't get caught?
And say it would only be 300$ you would get from it

Nah. I think Donald Rumsfeld is hot.

Really, it would harm me if my country was vulnerable like that. So no.

Yes.. the logic is abit messed up in this sentence. Anyways, I think I know what you mean. I think you can make it an enduring lesson by further analysing the situation and taking some action against it immediately.

"Strength through joy" to quote Le Vey quoting Hitler.

Like change what you can't accept, accept what you can't change..
THat's one of my favourites.

Acceptance is death. I'd rather go quickly fighting an impossible battle than surrender before fighting at all.

*Edit*

Jesus fuck ndrs, what's happened to you? Something was bugging me about this topic and then I remembered --

Originally posted by Xev:
"So kill him in a extremely painfull way. An injection of NaOH of high molarity would do the trick, I expect."

Nelson has a good point.. You haven't answered it. Why would you want to create hurt? Is it not an evil impulse talking XeV?

Man, other than an odd sympathy for rapists, you were like, all Christian and goody goody and shit! Now you're almost as sick and evil as I am!

Aww, this is so cute. :)

Heh sorry I can't reply for weeks. Christmas and shit...
Likely. But I've noticed it most often in the strong willed. Perhaps because those who are not strong willed end up slaves to alien values and never find their own.
An observation: I noticed that most people who are very motivated in science that I known have problems with their parents (no father, no mother, etc..). Do you think I am right?

What I am trying to say is that strong will has to be backed up by experiences.

Need for power is a neurosis? Power is life itself.
I think it was a crap translation, so neurosis was more like "main motivation".
Anyways it was an interesting book showing people's main forces.
Isn't it for everyone? Besides power, isn't pleasure one of the root motivations of mankind?
I guess I would expect more from a philosopher than to explain excuses why he wants to commit to pleasure. But then again it's Sade.
And it isn't the main motivation for me. It's more like a necessity (like food) that has to be fulfilled in order not to get depressed.
Eternal life is impossible, thus life is Absurd.
That is if you look at life from absolutist point of view. I am trying to learn not to look at it this way.

Really, it would harm me if my country was vulnerable like that. So no.
Hurt your country? I noticed you are so worried about your country? If something really bad happens to your shitty US, you can just go somewhere else..
Acceptance is death. I'd rather go quickly fighting an impossible battle than surrender before fighting at all.
It's no point fighting everything though. Like you don't go to zoo into a lion cage to fight just to prove you are unbeatable.
What good will it bring it to you to fight an impossible battle?
Sounds like a waste of life.

Man, other than an odd sympathy for rapists, you were like, all Christian and goody goody and shit! Now you're almost as sick and evil as I am!
I never was Christian OR goody goody OR shit!
I just don't like revenge.
Heh, the reason I have sympathy for rapists is because rape turns me on. :bugeye: Shh, don't tell anyone! But hell, I bet it does every decent person. Just another expression of power.

I was more worried about you.. Accusing me of having no sympathy..

ndrs:
What I am trying to say is that strong will has to be backed up by experiences.

Oh sure, I'll agree there. It also wants tests.

I think it was a crap translation, so neurosis was more like "main motivation".
Anyways it was an interesting book showing people's main forces.

Yeah, I'm getting into Freud too these days. I like his theories about sadomasochism and thanatos and eros.

I guess I would expect more from a philosopher than to explain excuses why he wants to commit to pleasure. But then again it's Sade.
And it isn't the main motivation for me. It's more like a necessity (like food) that has to be fulfilled in order not to get depressed.

Hmm, I'd agree. I don't think I've ever really pursued power. I'm just driven towards it.

If something really bad happens to your shitty US, you can just go somewhere else..

Not if we're all blown up first. :) Which would actually be kinda cool.

What good will it bring it to you to fight an impossible battle?

Power, courage never to submit or yield and all.

I never was Christian OR goody goody OR shit!
I just don't like revenge.

Oh, it would not be revenge, for me. Simply a chore or perhaps a test - I've always wondered what it's like to kill another human.

Weak people just piss me off, in general. And there's my protect and serve mechanism, to boot. I mean, nothing can provoke my disgust more than a weak person preying on others.

Heh, the reason I have sympathy for rapists is because rape turns me on.

Join the club. But really, I don't see what's sexy about being attacked by an impersonal stranger. You know? I mean maybe I'm a romantic, but there's something about power transfer and sex that almost makes complete knowledge and understanding between the parties a necessity.

Or perhaps my devotion to freedom is just spilling over here.

Shh, don't tell anyone

I just e-mailed your comments about rape to my grandmother's knitting group.
Sorry.

I was more worried about you.. Accusing me of having no sympathy..

Meh, fuck sympathy. I have some empathy, but that's about it. I guess I don't like to see people suffer. I mean, I hate people and I wish most of them were dead, but I'd want them to die painlessly, ya know?

So you had no sympathy. Big deal.

I had a point. I really did.

*Edit to remove bad puns, and I think I misspelled "sadomasochism" and "yield"*
*Edit because I'm an idiot*

Yeah, I'm getting into Freud too these days. I like his theories about sadomasochism and thanatos and eros.

and I though you said you don't like Freud.. :) Doesn't go experimentally well or smthng.

Oh, it would not be revenge, for me. Simply a chore or perhaps a test - I've always wondered what it's like to kill another human.

Weak people just piss me off, in general. And there's my protect and serve mechanism, to boot. I mean, nothing can provoke my disgust more than a weak person preying on others.
Yes.. I would like to kill some human as well. :) Just as a test. I missed a good chance when I was in France actually. I feel so sorry about it now..
Rapists are not necessarily weak though. Somebody could be just really turned on by its idea, like me.

Join the club. But really, I don't see what's sexy about being attacked by an impersonal stranger. You know? I mean maybe I'm a romantic, but there's something about power transfer and sex that almost makes complete knowledge and understanding between the parties a necessity.
I agree to it. For me, sex has to be bound with respect. Otherwise it feels as you are sleeping with a dog or some other inferior animal.
Meh, fuck sympathy. I have some empathy, but that's about it. I guess I don't like to see people suffer. I mean, I hate people and I wish most of them were dead, but I'd want them to die painlessly, ya know?
Well, if you are masochistic you will enjoy other people suffer even more if you have empathy!
I always kind of hope people would learn to overcome pain. I guess by hurting people you would be like a teacher.. :)

ndrs:
and I though you said you don't like Freud.. Doesn't go experimentally well or smthng.

Yeah, but he's got valid observations.

Yes.. I would like to kill some human as well. Just as a test. I missed a good chance when I was in France actually. I feel so sorry about it now..

I had a chance, once. But I would have gone to prison.

Rapists are not necessarily weak though. Somebody could be just really turned on by its idea, like me.

Oh yeah, I agree, not necessarily. I think a lot probably are, though.

I agree to it. For me, sex has to be bound with respect. Otherwise it feels as you are sleeping with a dog or some other inferior animal.

Exactly. There's no real power to take or give up, you may as well just buy a RealDoll or jerk off.

Well, if you are masochistic you will enjoy other people suffer even more if you have empathy!

Either it's the three glasses of whatever merlot, or what, but I can't stop giggling at this.

I always kind of hope people would learn to overcome pain. I guess by hurting people you would be like a teacher..

I don't want to hurt people. I can't stand other people's suffering and blood makes me queasy. I just want to exterminate most of this species, you know?

I am such a fucking pussy, really.

But yeah, I definitely agree on overcoming pain. I think your Will should be your primary motivation, not the desire to avoid pain.

I had a chance, once. But I would have gone to prison.
Oh yes.. You also have a chance of a case when you can go to prison.
I had a case of self-defence + foreign country which I was leaving the next day. That surely was a good chance. I didn't think of it like that though.
I don't want to hurt people. I can't stand other people's suffering and blood makes me queasy. I just want to exterminate most of this species, you know?

I am such a fucking pussy, really.
In reality, I don't like other people suffer either. This creates a kind of responsibility for them, and if they are really stupid, suffering for no reason (like a good Christian), makes me want to really end their suffering forever too sometimes.
you are said you are fucking pussy? :)
But yeah, I definitely agree on overcoming pain. I think your Will should be your primary motivation, not the desire to avoid pain.
Yeah, what really disses me is that people think you are masochistic just because you are inflicting pain on your self. It's just training..

ndrs:
Oh yes.. You also have a chance of a case when you can go to prison.
I had a case of self-defence + foreign country which I was leaving the next day. That surely was a good chance. I didn't think of it like that though.

Oooh, you had a good chance.
But you probably weren't thinking calmly at the time.

In reality, I don't like other people suffer either. This creates a kind of responsibility for them, and if they are really stupid, suffering for no reason (like a good Christian), makes me want to really end their suffering forever too sometimes.

Yes, exactly. I mean, if you are the one inflicting pain, that is one thing. But even then...you can't really stop a person from feeling pain. Well, there's Vicodins and morphine...yummy!...right....

What I'm babbling about is that you can hurt a person easily, but what they do with that pain is almost beyond your control.

you are said you are fucking pussy?

Oh yeah, I'm having a lesbian orgy in here. I take a break every so often to respond to you. :)

Yeah, what really disses me is that people think you are masochistic just because you are inflicting pain on your self. It's just training..

Now now, ndrs, put down the razors and needles.

Seriously, what do you do? I run and work out until I am in pain and exhausted. And it's not like I'm enjoying the pain, I'm just seeing how far I can push myself, and how much pain I can take.

It's just training, testing myself. Masochism is kinda testing yourself, how much power you can give up, but it's not the same thing at all.

*Xev is dragged back to her lesbian orgy*

Yes, exactly. I mean, if you are the one inflicting pain, that is one thing. But even then...you can't really stop a person from feeling pain. Well, there's Vicodins and morphine...yummy!...right....

What I'm babbling about is that you can hurt a person easily, but what they do with that pain is almost beyond your control.
You can brainwash them into believing that it is for greater good, or for their good, or that's life/god's will.
Oh yeah, I'm having a lesbian orgy in here. I take a break every so often to respond to you.
Well, I'm glad you are thinking of me while having a lesbian orgy! :bugeye:
Seriously, what do you do? I run and work out until I am in pain and exhausted. And it's not like I'm enjoying the pain, I'm just seeing how far I can push myself, and how much pain I can take.

It's just training, testing myself. Masochism is kinda testing yourself, how much power you can give up, but it's not the same thing at all.
I used to do bicycle riding just to push the limits. I stopped since I don't have a bike anymore (and too lazy to buy one).
I generally given up on physical tests. Although I still like to take a cold shower.
And then there is my all-time favourite - sleep deprivation.
Currently, I like mental self-torture - like making myself work in a factory, do something that is boring.
But sleep deprivation is still my favourite.

ndrs:
You can brainwash them into believing that it is for greater good, or for their good, or that's life/god's will.

Yup. Worked for Justine.

Well, I'm glad you are thinking of me while having a lesbian orgy!

Oh yeah. We're all thinking about you. Jennifer here keeps screaming your name.

I used to do bicycle riding just to push the limits. I stopped since I don't have a bike anymore (and too lazy to buy one).
I generally given up on physical tests. Although I still like to take a cold shower.
And then there is my all-time favourite - sleep deprivation.
Currently, I like mental self-torture - like making myself work in a factory, do something that is boring.
But sleep deprivation is still my favourite.

Fasting is fun.
As for mental self-torture, I prefer bleak, self-accusatory depressions. I haven't got a favorite yet.

Oh yeah. We're all thinking about you. Jennifer here keeps screaming your name.
You'll have to send me some photos..
Fasting is fun.
As for mental self-torture, I prefer bleak, self-accusatory depressions. I haven't got a favorite yet.
Yes.. it hurts being self-conscious..
I also enjoy looking as socially unacceptable as possible (it's sometimes difficult for me). Or annoying my friends intentionally till they reject me. So much for social torture.. :)
As for mental, I sometimes put myself into difficult situations intentionally as well. Very efficient testing.
Damn.. this is really weak. I should think of more stronger punishments.

ndrs:
Yes.. it hurts being self-conscious..

That it does.

I also enjoy looking as socially unacceptable as possible (it's sometimes difficult for me).

See, I don't have that problem. I rarely pay attention to clothes and suchlike, and most people sense that I'm not interested in them and leave me alone.

Socially, I try to be quite unacceptable, but that's more because I am naturally reserved and want to learn to be more brazen.

As for mental, I sometimes put myself into difficult situations intentionally as well. Very efficient testing.

Me, I just prefer my self-accusing.
Being female helps, I can list all my physical flaws and tell myself how hideous I look.

Damn.. this is really weak. I should think of more stronger punishments.

Amen amen! I've picked up lowering my caloric consumption to about half what it should be (I'm naturally a gourmand) but it's really not so much to be proud of.

I do need stronger self tortures. I'm thinking of making myself listen to really bad music and to be nice to the people I despise.

Yes.. it hurts being self-conscious..

That it does.
It is an interesting fact by WHOrg that Lithuania has the highest suicide rate in the world.
Eh.. talking about interesting occurences.. I remembered - did you notice "Justine" was written exactly 100 years before "Zarathustra"?
See, I don't have that problem. I rarely pay attention to clothes and suchlike, and most people sense that I'm not interested in them and leave me alone.

Socially, I try to be quite unacceptable, but that's more because I am naturally reserved and want to learn to be more brazen.
I try to look unacceptable - it shows dedication and character to a lot of people. In fact every thinking person that I meet acknowlodges it. Well, I don't look so inordinary... I have shoulder length hair and always wear jeans and shirts. Of course sometimes my hair is not washed for weeks, and I am have not shaved for another few weeks. But that only looks studentlike. Still some people by my looks seem to think I am a lecturer in the university. :) :)
But hey I still want to pull chicks sometimes, so I sometimes wash my hair and shave.. :)
Me, I just prefer my self-accusing.
Being female helps, I can list all my physical flaws and tell myself how hideous I look.
Yes.. unfortunately I have no physical flaws. :p
But really.. you should try the cold shower sometimes.
I do need stronger self tortures. I'm thinking of making myself listen to really bad music and to be nice to the people I despise.
I like the movie "fight club" on that. burning your hand with acid should rock!
Starting a fight and intentionally losing it sounds even more fun! :)
*edit
just something I forgot to add..
Being nice to people you hate should be too difficult.. After all, you are expressing power over them that way.

ndrs
It is an interesting fact by WHOrg that Lithuania has the highest suicide rate in the world.

Should be Michigan. God, this place is boring as shit.

*Wanders off to shoot herself, then remembers*

Crap, no gun. :(

I try to look unacceptable - it shows dedication and character to a lot of people.

I think perhaps I should pick up this trait too.

But hey I still want to pull chicks sometimes, so I sometimes wash my hair and shave..

I think that long hair is sexy on a man. But yes, do shave.

Yes.. unfortunately I have no physical flaws.
But really.. you should try the cold shower sometimes.

I think I shall try that. It sounds horrible.

I like the movie "fight club" on that. burning your hand with acid should rock!
Starting a fight and intentionally losing it sounds even more fun!

Oh dear Cthulhu! My favorite movie!
I'd like something like fight club. Nobody will really fight a woman (yes, I've tried to start a fight) except another woman, and that's really not what I want.

I want to be defeated, you know?

Being nice to people you hate should be too difficult.. After all, you are expressing power over them that way.

It's not so much hate as disgust, and you're right. But it takes a bit of self-discipline.

Should be Michigan. God, this place is boring as shit.

*Wanders off to shoot herself, then remembers*

Crap, no gun.
Get out of there. US is supposed to be free country right? :)
Anyways you have mountains there?

FLEE, my friend, into thy solitude! I see thee deafened with the
noise of the great men, and stung all over with the stings of the
little ones.

Of course the US is a free country. It is. HEIL ASHCROFT! Very free. You should move here. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

FLEE, my friend, into thy solitude! I see thee deafened with the
noise of the great men, and stung all over with the stings of the
little ones.

Perhaps it is time to do that. :)