Christians are hypocrites



Christians, they love to talk about how “loving”, “dutiful” and “compassionate” they are, yet I have yet to meet ONE who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree. Their willful ignorance of the Bible combined with their two faced idealism to preach it, has made us sick, hasn’t it? For nearly two thousand years Biblicists have been lecturing people on the importance of adhering to the Bible’s teachings on ethics, manners, and morality. They quote Jesus and Paul profusely, with a liberal sprinkling of Old Testament moralism. The problem with their approach lies not only in an oft- noted failure to practice what they preach, but an equally pronounced tendency to ignore what the Bible itself, preaches. Christians practice what can only be described as “selective morality”. What they like, they cling to and shove down other’s throats; what they don’t like, they ignore vehemently. That which is palatable and acceptable is supposedly applicable to all; while that which is obnoxious, inconvenient, or self-denying is only applicable to those addressed 2,000 years ago. Their hypocrisy is so rampant that even the validity of calling oneself “Christian” is in question. I see so many people enjoy quoting the Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, and some of Paul’s sermons, but don’t even PRETEND to heed other, equally valid, maxims. I’ve mentioned pro-life and conservatism in other sermons. This one is going to sum up the rest of my beefs.

Hypocrisy of Marital Relationships: So many Christians try to rationalize this but it is clear that a true follower of Jesus can neither divorce someone nor marry someone who is divorced. There is an exception to the rule, however. If spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is in adulterer. Remember that 80% of this country is Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences” not adultery”, which implies that Christians are again practicing selective morality. How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?

1) “So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder” (Matthew 19:6 & Mark 10:9)

2) “whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery” (Matthew 5:32, 19:9 & Luke 16:18).

3) ”Whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery” (Matthew 5:32).

4) ”...whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her” (Mark 10:11 & Luke 16:18), which applies to women as well-(Mark 10:12).

On to another beef: The Christian attempts to put prayer into schools run directly counter to biblical teachings. Jesus said prayer should be a private affair devoid of public display: “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room (or closet.) and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret...“ (Matthew 6:5-6 RSV). Biblicists violate this on a regular basis and have no intention of correcting their behavior. They demand that evolution be taken out of the curriculum. They demand parochial school receive voucher programs so that they may collect public funding. Christians continuously pray in public, IE: churches, street corners, schools, courts, etc. yet all the while they never stop to think this is in direct violation to the god they pray to. I, of course, know why this is voluntarily ignored. Public prayer forces the peers of school children to jump on the band wagon and pray. We are all aware that the church is simply a business which employs tactics similar to that of tobacco industries in recruiting consumers. Get the kids while they are young and vulnerable so that they become donating members of the church when they reach adulthood. I find it humorous that other businesses warn their consumers on the package that it is dangerous to one’s health while Churches don’t put warning labels on the bible for the pornography and immorality it contains. The psychological damage organized religion causes is notably prevalent. Cancer from smoking and cirrhosis from drinking is JUST AS HARMFUL as the psychosis believers develop concerning reality. The “I see demons” complex is more rampant in Christians then it is in acid dropping space cadets. I am not saying this as a joke. There are literal studies done on this topic and they are in accordance to what I am conveying here.

Christians always use the excuse that the above mentioned verse is some how “metaphorical” yet they take Paul’s maxim that men should pray with their heads uncovered very seriously. I assume this is generally followed because removing one’s hat isn’t particularly inconvenient. “Any man who prays or prophecies with his head covered dishonors his head…“(1 Corinthians 11:4 RSV). On the other hand, Paul’s tenet that women must keep their heads covered with a veil during prayer is quite inconvenient and, for this reason, has either been rationalized away or ignored, although it is no less binding than any other moral law in the New Testament: “…but any woman who prays or prophecies with her head unveiled dishonors her head… For if a woman will not veil herself, then we should cut off her hair: but if it be disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil… Judge for yourself; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with head uncovered?” (1 Corinthians 11:5-13 RSV) The selectivity in which these verses are followed SCREAMS hypocrisy.



More Commonly Ignored Teachings:

1) ”Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?” --l Corinthians 11:14). How many freaked out long-haired, bible thumping Jesus freaks do you know? Perhaps this is just my experience, but I can name 12 such individuals off the top of my head. Surely, you can recall at least ONE LONG-HAIRED CHRISTIAN. The stereotypical version of CHRIST HIMSELF ! Think of the numerous statues and pictures Christians adore depicting the lord appearing as that which he detests. One can not stop and wonder at the absurdity of this.

2) Another tenet clearly prohibits women from being ministers or otherwise speaking in church (“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak”-- 1 Corinthians 14:34). It’s difficult to see how Paul could support the current movement to ordain women. Why, Jesus would shit himself knowing that even I, an ATHEIST WOMAN, has managed to get herself legally ordained.

3) A third tenet prohibits men and women from wearing each other’s clothing (“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God”--Deuteronomy 22:5). Funny thing, two female Jehovah Witnesses came over this morning, they coffee clutched with my neighbor Jenny, a fellow Christian and ALL THREE of these women were wearing pant suits!

4) Ever watch these Christians on television and notice how their bowed heads uniformly shake amen while some evangelist goes on and on in prayer for a fucking hour? Well, repetitious and monotonous praying is in violation of Matthew 6:7. “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

5) Christians are not supposed to take their disputes before non-Christian courts or judges. (“If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?” -- 1 Corinthians 6:1 NIV) How interesting! Considering that state is separate from church all courts are supposedly “ungodly”. Does this stop Christians from tying up the supreme court with law suits concerning school prayer, abortion, or numerous other absurdities? Hell no it doesn’t, and my taxes are paying the fucking bill for their hypocrisy!

6) Christian women are supposed to dress discreetly (“...that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire”--l Timothy 2:9 RSV; and “Let not yours be the outward adorning of braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing”-- 1 Peter 3 :3). Violations of these rules are too numerous to mention. Just visualize Tammy Faye Baker’s mascara laden eyes and gold encrusted wrists.

7) Here is perhaps the mother of verses ignored: “Judge not, that ye be not judged”-Matthew 7:1 and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven”-Luke 6:37. I have yet to meet a Christian who has not “judged” my atheism. The whole world is chalk full of judges, juries, voters, employers, teachers, etc. which are all constantly judging others.

8) Believers are supposed to hate their parents when they follow Jesus (“If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”-- Luke 14:26). Well, considering that Christians do not abandon their families but usually attempt to brainwash them they are all guilty of not following this verse. “It’s symbolic”, yeah, I know your lame ass defense to this one already.

9) They are not to oppose evil (“But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also”-- Matthew 5:39). If this were followed one might just as well abolish law enforcement.

10) Biblicists are not allowed to call anyone “father” (“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven”--Matthew 23:9). Not only is this rule ignored on a DAILY BASIS, but Catholicism (which is supposedly infallible) uses “father” as a specific title.

11) Christians are not supposed to plan or prepare. God will provide (“Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or that ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on... Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, not gather into barns; yet your heavenly father feedth them. Are ye not much better than they?” --Matthew 6:25-34 & Luke 12:22-31 inclusive). I see Christian conservatives plot on a daily basis how to fuck over their employees so they can reap more profits.

12) Lastly, Jesus, who clearly is of greater importance than Paul, said the Old Law was to remain in force until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished (“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”-Matthew 5:18-19 RSV). Heaven and earth still exist and many prophecies are not yet fulfilled. How many times have you heard some lame ass Christian say “the Old testament doesn’t matter, Jesus was the lamb and abolished it”? Don’t let them get away with this shit for even the bible says that they should still be following the Old Law.

This verse leads me into an observation of how clear their selective morality can be exposed. Take for instance how Biblicists approach the Old Testament. They leap in and out of the Old Law like a porpoise in a ship’s wake. If they like it, they quote it; if they don’t, they won’t. Among the scores of verses they enjoy and employ are those which teach the following:

13) Contact with mediums or wizards is forbidden (“Do not turn to mediums or wizards; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God”-- Leviticus 19:3 1 RSV, see also: Leviticus 20:6 & Deuteronomy 18: 10-12). Here’s an interesting little stat; Christians more then any other faith consult mystics and self-proclaimed oracles.

14) People should give one-tenth of their income to the Lord, which Biblicists equate with church (“And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord’s...And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord”--Leviticus 27:30-32)

15) Tattoos are anathema: (“You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you. I am the Lord”--Leviticus 19:28) Despite this teaching I manage to see Mexican Catholics daily with tattoos of the Virgin Mary, Jesus or a set of praying hands on their forearms and shoulder blades.

16) Money cannot be lent at interest to your brother, only to foreigners (Deuteronomy 23: 19-20) Ahhh, I’m recalling all the Christian banking corporations....

17) Eating pork is forbidden (Deuteronomy 14:8). Hmm, I’ve never met a Christian who DIDN’T enjoy bacon and eggs.

18) A man must marry and have relations with his dead brother’s wife (Deuteronomy 25:5-6). This goes without explaining of course.

19) A seducer must marry an unengaged virgin whom he seduces (Exodus 22:16-17)

20) A raped, unengaged virgin must marry her rapist and they can never divorce (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). What justice the “moral majority” advocates!

21) There are several petty and silly little verses in the O.T., but none the less, they are to be followed. I guess it’s okay to disobey the lord for fashion’s sake. Beards can’t be rounded (Leviticus 19:27); A garment composed of wool and linen can’t be worn (Deuteronomy 22:11); Note: this explains why you will commonly see orthodox Jews with the long beards and black clothing. I say Christians should do this too so we can identify their stupidity upon first impression.

22) Bastards can’t enter the Lord’s congregation. (Deuteronomy 23:2) Hey, I know this is harsh, but God commands it, hence it must be “just”.

All of these rules are part of the Old Covenant and of equal import. Why quote the Ten Commandments and ignore other tenets? A believer’s obligation to one is no less than his obligation to all. In fact, if under the New Covenant Christians have stepped into the shoes of the Israelites and become, in effect, the new Chosen People, then they should inherit all the privileges and duties of that office. They seem to want the former but not the latter. Biblicists teach, preach, and attempt to reach others with moralism, but are not averse to selectively using that which suits their interests.

I’d like to close this essay with how to catch a Christian in the act. When you see them expounding a verse and ignoring another, call them on it. I know what you’ll hear. They’ll say, “that’s from the Old Law and we aren’t under the Old Law anymore”. Trip them with this: “But aren’t the Ten Commandments part of the Old Law?” “Yes, but we are obligated to follow them because they are reported in the NT” (Matthew 19:16-18, Mark 10:17-19 & Luke 18:18-22). Immediately point out to them that Jesus omitted half of the Ten Commandments and invented a new one, “though shall not defraud” ! Before they can get a word in edge wise finish them off with: “According to scripture it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of law to fail”(Luke 16:17 & Matthew 5:18-19). “If sin is transgression of the law, as 1 John 3:4 says, then you should be following all of the Old Law.” This, from experience, is the best way to shoot down these idiots and bar them from getting away with their hypocrisy.


an essay from "The Church of Theists Suck" was written by Charlotte Schnook.

waits patiently for c2o to remind audible of just how much of a poor, lost soul is while simulatneously ignoring every word in the post..

Will take a closer look at the post later but he is right the "we aren't under the Old Law anymore" retort is a perpetual echo.

We are not under the power of the law which was to bring death to sinners because we now live by the Spirit that was sent to us. By accepting this free gift we fulfill the law and in our inner beings we delight in the law because it makes us like Him.

Whatever I may be afraid of, whatever punishment I think I may receive, I only need to remember the very first commandment

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

The Spirit of God helps me to understand the One that spoke those words to Moses. He is merciful and says to me "My grace is sufficient for thee" and "I came not to judge thee but to save thee"
God is love and I am a forgiven sinner. I have been the worst.

Wow, I am a really good prophet.. :D

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me"So it's no problem having other Gods - so long as they're second, third, or forth . . . :confused:

Anyway, your just making audible's argument. Therefor you must agree, at least to the point that the Bible is filled with so many stupid laws that not even YOU would dare live your life according to them. So you do as ALL other Christian’s and make some bullshit off-the-cuff excuse to validate living the way YOU want to live and NOT the way God stipulated under His Laws.

I’m curious c20, didn’t you find ANY of the above Laws from God absolutely moronic? Didn’t any of them strike you as unfair?

I’m curious c20, didn’t you find ANY of the above Laws from God absolutely moronic? Didn’t any of them strike you as unfair?

Why do you ask?

Why do you ask?
avoid michaels question, why dont you WOW.

Why do you ask?because I wondered if you thought so or not

because I wondered if you thought so or not

Describe your interest in my opinion and it's validity here in a thread entitled "Christians are hypocrites".

You are trying to trap me into saying "No I think some laws are stupid"
Then you will say "But if you dont agree with those laws how can you be sure of any other laws"
Then you will say I am a hypocrite.

Boring :rolleyes:

So now that your motives have been exposed since it is not truth that you seek, can you tell me why you do not do even the simplest one of God's laws which is to love thy neigbour as thyself, given that I am a neighbour?

Do you like to be tripped up in speech Michael? Now go on, act innocent of wrongdoing.

c20

Describe your interest in my opinion and it's validity here in a thread entitled "Christians are hypocrites".

You are trying to trap me into saying "No I think some laws are stupid"
Then you will say "But if you dont agree with those laws how can you be sure of any other laws"
Then you will say I am a hypocrite.

Boring :rolleyes:

So now that your motives have been exposed since it is not truth that you seek, can you tell me why you do not do even the simplest one of God's laws which is to love thy neigbour as thyself, given that I am a neighbour?

Do you like to be tripped up in speech Michael? Now go on, act innocent of wrongdoing.

c20
WTF is wrong with you, you gave the same answer to micheal in the other thread.
it's a discussion forum, you discuss things DUH?.
why dont you just f off, you lunatic, (there all against me god, there all against me.)
just answer a frigging question.

Describe your interest in my opinion and it's validity here in a thread entitled "Christians are hypocrites".

You are trying to trap me into saying "No I think some laws are stupid"
Then you will say "But if you dont agree with those laws how can you be sure of any other laws"
Then you will say I am a hypocrite.

Boring :rolleyes:

So now that your motives have been exposed since it is not truth that you seek, can you tell me why you do not do even the simplest one of God's laws which is to love thy neigbour as thyself, given that I am a neighbour?

Do you like to be tripped up in speech Michael? Now go on, act innocent of wrongdoing.

c20 c20, it’s painfully obvious to everyone you don’t live by all of Gods Laws. So it’s obvious you’re a hypocrite – that’s not the point – it’s a given. So no there is no need for me to trick you into admitting you don’t live by all Gods Laws as lain out in the good book – we already can guess that much.

So again, no tricks.

I was just interested in which exact laws you thought were particularly too stupid to live by?

Well done, you have described sin. But where was Jesus in all that? Do you forget what He said in answer to all the allegations that he ate with sinners and worked on the Sabbath?

jenyar who are you directing your question too. thank you

Maybe Charlotte Schnook. The essay is almost meaningless - bones only vultures could feed on. It for arguments like these that Jesus said "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

It's clear that the author would be just as surprised at any other law in the Bible. If she only payed more attention to the introduction to Lev. 19: "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." That is the fountain from which all laws spring, and the thirstier you become, the more you will hate each drop that fails to quench your thirst.

Jesus is not a hypocrite. True Christians follow Jesus, (the word of god) so they are not hypocrites.

Jesus is not a hypocrite. True Christians follow Jesus, (the word of god) so they are not hypocrites.

'True' christians, whatever the fuck that means, might very well preach jesus, but the very point of this thread is that they then do the exact opposite of that which they preach, and that which jesus said.

I would feel it beneficial that you read Audible's post before attempting response to it.

Furthermore, what makes you say "jesus is not a hypocrite", and how do you justify that claim? Need I resort to pointing out all the hypocricy shown by jesus in the bible?

All the hypocricy shown by Jesus in the bible? Oh please do, this should be good.

Audible, while I am waiting for Mr. Snake to list all the hypocricies shown by Jesus in the bible, I read your little diatribe on Christians, and interestingly, I agree with it. You, or at least the author of your essay, has pointed out all the failings (well maybe not all) of Christians today and we will - each and every one of us - say that we are sinners who have failed to keep God's precepts. Yes, only God is perfect. The rest of us are still just trying.

Yes, there are some of us (maybe the Tammy Faye's of our religion) who claim to be one thing and are in reality something quite different - but I don't think all the fake preachers and healers even makes a dent on the total number of truely faithful. Yes we are all sinners and we all fail to keep some part of God's rules. For myself, I make no excuse - I am guilty, but I am trying to be better.

Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

...

Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]

This is just one example I know, but I'm sure you have a bible of your own. Need I mention how he claims to love, and then later smacks someone he doesn't like or many other such instances where he does exactly the opposite of that which he preaches?

It is hypocrisy: "The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess"

It's like a man telling people not to smoke, while he puffs on a cigar.

Come on now, you offered a list.

Yes, anyone who calls another a fool is in "danger of hell fire" What's the problem here? How is this hypocrisy? This is like you trying to tell an engineer how to build a bridge. You haven't a clue yet you are trying to instruct an expert. If I called you a fool, since I don't have a clue about you, I would be wrong... Jesus, on the other hand, is an expert. Jesus knows your heart and he can make an accurate assesment. Jesus is not being a hypocrite.

Where's the rest of the list? You offered "all the hypocricies".

hey snake, jesus wants to turn all kinds of people to god so he can't talk the same way to everyone of them 'cos people are different. although he does talk to them in the same way, but just using different words. that's one reason why he may sound like a hypocrite.

don't you know what a true christian is? i already told you right? the one who follows christ. "he who wants to follow me must forget himself, take his cross everyday and follow me." whoever knows christ knows how a true christian is.

i don't know how to convince you that jesus is not a hypocrite but i know that he is not. i don't know if anyone could convince you right now, but i'm sure that in the end times all people will hear the voice of god, also you, don't you believe? :)

don't you know what a true christian is?

Does anybody? Fuck me, we could be here debating it for the next millennium.

i don't know how to convince you that jesus is not a hypocrite but i know that he is not. i don't know if anyone could convince you right now, but i'm sure that in the end times all people will hear the voice of god, also you, don't you believe?

I'm sure at the end times all people will hear the Irish accent of Lenny the leprechaun, also you. Don't you believe?

Your statement and question are meaningless.

Still waiting for that "hypocracy" list...

You planning to ask every single hour? Am I entitled to a lunch break or perhaps a snooze? Am I allowed the right to take a piss or a poo? Might I be given the right to walk my dog, have sex with my wife or watch TV?

Thanks in advance for your graciousness.

I see you every ten minutes on other threads which tells me you are not working on the list... My feelings are hurt since I feel I am being ignored. :(

If you were being ignored, you wouldn't be responding to a post I'd left for you, now would you?

As I did mention somewhere, compiling a list from the whole NT takes a while, most likely a week or two. In the meantime I think it's only fair to say I am allowed to speak.

I will tell you what a Christian is without going into any millenia.

A Christian is aware that when he speaks, God is showing him something. A Christian speaks as though in a mirror, afraid that the reflection he sees will be dissaproving of itself. This is a great mystery but it is true for whatsoever measure you judge your brother you also will be judged by that self same measure as though you are saying it to yourself as in a mirror.
Now those who act in hate are just sowing hate for themselves. By your own words are you condemned. For those in Christ there is no longer any condemnation. It is not by good works we are saved nor through favoritism it is because we hear the voice which says "Not guilty" - an innocent verdict that sets our spirits free and is proclaimed to us from God Himself. No one can question God's authority once they have accepted Jesus because the Spirit of God reveals Jesus and in doing so the Father exalts His Son that we may know what pleases Him.
Now the saints who were killed for their faith were killed by whom and for what reason given that I have told you how a Christian's walk with God is. There are powers out their who curse the name of God day and night such is their jealous rage. Powers that seek to malign God so that you His sons, will feel seperated and curse God too. Those wicked entities have but a short time because the work of the cross is done.
We the believers become like lambs before God and our hearts tremble because the spirit of the world is still at large and it is an enemy of God and of God's children. But we stand firm in faith growing in the love of Our Lord Jesus and learning to lean on Him as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
One day our knowledge of Him will be complete and then we will see God's creation being subjected to Him, the Christ, of which we are a part. Then we will see God's Kingdom for God will rule in our hearts.

Amen

hey snake, jesus wants to turn all kinds of people to god so he can't talk the same way to everyone of them 'cos people are different. although he does talk to them in the same way, but just using different words. that's one reason why he may sound like a hypocrite.

don't you know what a true christian is? i already told you right? the one who follows christ. "he who wants to follow me must forget himself, take his cross everyday and follow me." whoever knows christ knows how a true christian is.

i don't know how to convince you that jesus is not a hypocrite but i know that he is not. i don't know if anyone could convince you right now, but i'm sure that in the end times all people will hear the voice of god, also you, don't you believe? :)

What does it mean to follow Christ? To summarize your post: everybody should create his own brain noise, call it "voice of God" and enjoy the feelings. As long as you have faith that your brain noise is a voice of God - God is real. Very nice way to create personal nirvana. What do your personal brain noises have to do with universal God, truth,...? As long as I have faith in green humanoids communicating with me, it's real. OK. I got it.

What does it mean to follow Christ? As long as I have faith in green humanoids communicating with me, it's real. OK. I got it.

I have told you many times what it is to follow Christ. It is to lay down your life and let Him take over. 'He' being the Holy Spirit which is poured out on those that lay down their life and put on His.
The Holy Spirit is a most wonderful Being and whilst I do not doubt for one moment that He could invent a game whereby we children could play at being green humanoids who communicate with one another, I do not want you to miss the Spirit of His love. It is this that I wish to communicate with you. Nothing else. For in Him we have life abundant. Freely and without charge now that the price for sin has been paid Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Our sins are no longer remembered by Him because we fulfill every commandment by believing on Him.

peace

c20

I have told you many times what it is to follow Christ. It is to lay down your life and let Him take over. 'He' being the Holy Spirit which is poured out on those that lay down their life and put on His.

Well, you may just lay down your life and let your brain noises take control. As long as you believer that brain noise is a voice of God, it follows that God took over your life. Very nice way to create personal nirvana. It does not prove a single thing except that it makes you happy (in the broad sense). Personal feelings is all what counts in the believer's worlds.

The Holy Spirit is a most wonderful Being and whilst I do not doubt for one moment that He could invent a game whereby we children could play at being green humanoids who communicate with one another, I do not want you to miss the Spirit of His love.

It could be just brain noise not a holy spirit. Just because you believe some "holy spirit" leads you somewhere, it proves nothing. I believe that universal mind is controlling my actions/destiny, I gave myself completely to universal mind. Therefore, universal mind is real. Right?

It is this that I wish to communicate with you. Nothing else. For in Him we have life abundant. Freely and without charge now that the price for sin has been paid Through Jesus Christ our Lord. Our sins are no longer remembered by Him because we fulfill every commandment by believing on Him.
Universal mind offers abundant life too. Also, it does not torture unbelieving sinners for eternity or even a microsecond. Universal mind is greater than the brain noise you call holy spirit. It leds my life, it makes me happy and whole.

You see, using personal feelings as a proof of existance of something we cannot comprehend, see, feel, touch (brain noise does not count) is oxymoron.

You see, using personal feelings as a proof of existance of something we cannot comprehend, see, feel, touch (brain noise does not count) is oxymoron.

I call it faith. I do not expect to be able to deliver any proof that God Himself has not already set before you.
Tell me though, how does your faith in Universal Mind deal with atrocities caused to the innocent. What benefit does Universal mind say is theirs and what punishment will be exacted to the transgressors who caused those atrocities? I am interested in justice naturally. I am human after all.

Thanks

c20

I call it faith. I do not expect to be able to deliver any proof that God Himself has not already set before you.
Tell me though, how does your faith in Universal Mind deal with atrocities caused to the innocent. What benefit does Universal mind say is theirs and what punishment will be exacted to the transgressors who caused those atrocities? I am interested in justice naturally. I am human after all.

c20

Obviously, you cannot. In the faith bussiness, personal satisfaction/content is all what matters. No matter how stupid (from common sense stand point) faith is, as long as it makes believers content, nobody will convince them otherwise. It's not only Christianity. There is a bunch of proofless faiths (which strive to give a proof of their infallibility though), which make people as happy (at least) as you are.

I'm agnostic. I do not believe in the universal mind, etc. It was just an example. As for atrocities, the same question to you. Why does omniknowledgeable God needs atrocity to prove his weird points? What punishment are you talking about? As long as a person commited atrocities in "the name of God"; as long as a person feels that holy spirit leads him; as long as a person have faith in Jesus (salvation rule #1), all attrocities and sins will be forgiven. Hell is reserved for honest losers who did not torture anybody BUT who commited a crime of not accepting Jesus. Who commited a crime of not selling their consciousness for the eternal life carrot. Etc.

Oh bugger..

David, I hate to say it but that timeline is going to be slightly longer. I forgot that I also have to go through the entire OT aswell. That is unless you're going to claim god and jesus are not the same being? Personally I would probably agree with you if I were religious, because the jesus being god nonsense is exactly that. However, the majority do believe that jesus is god, and as such it would only be fair and accurate to include the OT.

If you have a query or problem with this, kindly let me know. Thanks in advance.

Obviously, you cannot. In the faith bussiness, personal satisfaction/content is all what matters.

Is that why Jesus said "Not my will be done but yours" after he had just begged God to take this cup of suffing away from Him?

I too have begged God to take a cup of suffering away from me but he held me in regard and asked me to drink it telling me that the bitterness would turn sweet in my stomach. He was right.

No matter how stupid (from common sense stand point) faith is, as long as it makes believers content, nobody will convince them otherwise.

Such is the nature of 'contentment' :)

It's not only Christianity. There is a bunch of proofless faiths (which strive to give a proof of their infallibility though), which make people as happy (at least) as you are.


I am happy because I am content. I no longer worry about my life or my death for I know it is in good hands. I have swallowed the worst (at least for me) and whilst it was incredibly bitter (I cannot begin to explain my own suffering), it did turn sweet in my stomach as promised to me. It is that sweetness which is brings forth contentment. In it I know I have shared in the sufferings of Christ, that I physically empathised with my brother in that. This is what we do when we love someone. We share their pain and we share their joy. This is every father's experience when his wife is in labour is it not?
I dont need to provide evidence because God says "I have already done it"

I'm agnostic. I do not believe in the universal mind, etc. It was just an example.


Fair enough.

As for atrocities, the same question to you. Why does omniknowledgeable God needs atrocity to prove his weird points?


Who are you my friend to challenge the Most High God? The Creator of Heaven and Earth and everything in it including you.

What punishment are you talking about? As long as a person commited atrocities in "the name of God"; as long as a person feels that holy spirit leads him; as long as a person have faith in Jesus (salvation rule #1), all attrocities and sins will be forgiven.

I tell you the truth, if someone attributes the evil they do to the Holy Spirit then they are deceived for God does not do evil. The law is good but it brings death to those who commit evil. I cannot imagine the punishment for those who do evil and then say to themselves and those weak in faith "God is like that. He commits evil because I have committed evil." - Those people are getting their father's confused because their father is the devil who has deceived from the very beginning.
Once you know Jesus and you understand grace, you do not carry on commiting evil so that that grace will increase. That would be foolish and it would have been better for you to have never had known Him at all.


Hell is reserved for honest losers who did not torture anybody BUT who commited a crime of not accepting Jesus.

Yes. For this reason

Acts 2:25

For David says concerning him,'I saw the Lord always before my face, For he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved.' WEB

i.e. Fulfillment of the first commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

And for this purpose

Acts 2:26

Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope; WEB


Who commited a crime of not selling their consciousness for the eternal life carrot. Etc.

i.e. They tried to save their own lives rather than obey the very first commandment of the Law. But as it is written "Whoever saves his own life will lose it, but whoever loses their lives because of me will save it"

^^ This is wisdom but it is hidden from those who do not seek God. For those who seek God, all will be revealed for again as it is written ...

Mark 4:22
For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open.

And then ...

Mark 4:23

If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.

So you see Jesus was aware that it was only to those who were actually 'listening' with open hearts, seeking God themselves, that His words would have meaning.

And Paul reiterates this is his letter to the Corinthians

1 Corinthians 1: 18-25

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[3]
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.


peace

c20

Everyone is a hypocrite. Christians often do it with style though, that's for sure.

I suppose that probably goes for the population at large though. Across all walks of life, practicality apparently demands people to engage in hypocracy.

Evolutionarily, it's better to survive a hypocrite than to be a dead man of reason.

To summarize your post: everybody should create his own brain noise, call it "voice of God" and enjoy the feelings.

Do you know where this "brain noise" comes from? Do you know who this "I" inside of you is? If you really think something sounds true and nice, it will lead to the truth. Humans have a close connection to god and they are able to hear his voice as an inner voice which always speaks the truth.

Evolutionarily, it's better to survive a hypocrite than to be a dead man of reason.

Unless your name is remembered of course. People quickly forget hypocrites. They are thankful they have gone.

what 768 hearing voices in your head is called lunacy, so keep it to yourself before you get ridiculed.
or locked up

what 768 hearing voices in your head is called lunacy, so keep it to yourself before you get ridiculed.
or locked up

You're wrong! :) The voice in our head is our own voice which every human can hear in a form of thoughts, even you hear it this very second reading this. Then we have a subconscious mind too and it is possible to know this subconscious and its voiceless voice.

You're wrong! :) The voice in our head is our own voice which every human can hear in a form of thoughts, even you hear it this very second reading this. Then we have a subconscious mind too and it is possible to know this subconscious and its voiceless voice.

The beginning of this process starts with a simple acceptance of "I Am"

c20H25N3o: I will tell you what a Christian is without going into any millenia. A Christian is aware that when he speaks, God is showing him something. A Christian speaks as though in a mirror, afraid that the reflection he sees will be dissaproving of itself. This is a great mystery but it is true for whatsoever measure you judge your brother you also will be judged by that self same measure as though you are saying it to yourself as in a mirror. Now those who act in hate are just sowing hate for themselves. By your own words are you condemned. For those in Christ there is no longer any condemnation. It is not by good works we are saved nor through favoritism it is because we hear the voice which says "Not guilty" - an innocent verdict that sets our spirits free and is proclaimed to us from God Himself. No one can question God's authority once they have accepted Jesus because the Spirit of God reveals Jesus and in doing so the Father exalts His Son that we may know what pleases Him.
Now the saints who were killed for their faith were killed by whom and for what reason given that I have told you how a Christian's walk with God is. There are powers out their who curse the name of God day and night such is their jealous rage. Powers that seek to malign God so that you His sons, will feel seperated and curse God too. Those wicked entities have but a short time because the work of the cross is done. We the believers become like lambs before God and our hearts tremble because the spirit of the world is still at large and it is an enemy of God and of God's children. But we stand firm in faith growing in the love of Our Lord Jesus and learning to lean on Him as we walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
One day our knowledge of Him will be complete and then we will see God's creation being subjected to Him, the Christ, of which we are a part. Then we will see God's Kingdom for God will rule in our hearts.

Amen
*************
M*W: What psychobabble bullshit! Don't you realize you are worshipping the Egyptian Sun God? Therefore, you are definitely NO christian! Quit lying to the world, you idiot!

The beginning of this process starts with a simple acceptance of "I Am"

I can say that, I am, I am, I am, but what am I beside being me, a human being, in control of my own destiny, using my sense reason and intellect.
obviously you think there something else, in the realms of fantasy.

M*W: What psychobabble bullshit! Don't you realize you are worshipping the Egyptian Sun God? Therefore, you are definitely NO christian! Quit lying to the world, you idiot!

:rolleyes:

look in the mirror and say that to your own face! Maybe that will make sense to you. Dare you!

peace

c20

c20: but she's not a xian, and she controls her own mind and destiny, why on earth would she want to do that, you moron.

c20: but she's not a xian, and she controls her own mind and destiny, why on earth would she want to do that, you moron.

Grow up Audible eh? You can say what you want without resorting to petty insults hopefully. If your point is worth debating, debate it, otherwise pay attention to your own little tag line - something about shutting up if you have nothing useful to say. If you have to resort to personal insults out of context I can only assume you have nothing to say of interest.
Interest me audible with your wonderful points. The insults just remind me of someone with tourettes syndrome, except they cannot help what they say.

Thanks

c20

c20H25N3o: look in the mirror and say that to your own face! Maybe that will make sense to you. Dare you!
*************
M*W: I have done exactly that, and what I saw was the false belief in the sun as god. I don't worship the sun nor any gods that be.

M*W, I just thought about this sun-god and I found out that the sun is actually a manifestation of love on a material level, that's why it has created life on earth and done other things like love would do. Everything can be converted because it's all the same energy. These words could for example be converted into music... Everything is an expression of the word (the creative power, christ), every animal, every plant, every insect and so on. The sun however is the representation of the greatest aspect of god, on a material level though. The "ancients" knew this, but when they told it to the lower human egyptians of that time they misunderstood their teachings and for example started to worship the sun as if it were god. But because it represents love it may have served them.

"Nonsense knows no bounds".

SnakeLord.

"Nonsense knows no bounds".

SnakeLord.

How profound :rolleyes:

Thank you.

Thank you.

Pleasure. Here to serve.

(and play my harmonica - but you cant hear that either)

Pleasure. Here to serve.


Ah, like a mule. I doubt you'll be saying "pleasure" when turned into glue.

Ah, like a mule. I doubt you'll be saying "pleasure" when turned into glue.

You are right.

you seem to have a thing about audible, amoeba-man.
he has said nothing worse than M*W, snakelord, and me.
but he seems to get in you craw, why?.

do I get on your nerves oh didums, is it because you keep geting proved wrong.

No. You just lack common manners. But you show yourself up. As long as you keep getting pats on the back though you will feel justified. Strong character that you are.
Well done.

peace

c20

do I get on your nerves oh didums, is it because you keep geting proved wrong.

Proved wrong? Where was I proved wrong? How can you convict me guilty of being wrong when I am talking about faith? Are you stupid? Thats like saying "No, your name is not c20 and you cannot prove it is"; to which I reply "Yes it is. It is written" and you say "No its not no its not so there."

A believer may say "I believe in God. I am the smallest thing there is"
An atheist may say "I dont believe in God. I am the greatest thing there is."

Atheist's think they are the greatest whilst the believer's are meak. It is not suprising therefore that atheists enjoy persecuting the believers. But I tell you now, it is cowardice and this makes the meak so very much stronger than you in reality.

Carry on. You make me stronger.

peace

c20

Oh bugger..

David, I hate to say it but that timeline is going to be slightly longer. I forgot that I also have to go through the entire OT aswell. That is unless you're going to claim god and jesus are not the same being? Personally I would probably agree with you if I were religious, because the jesus being god nonsense is exactly that. However, the majority do believe that jesus is god, and as such it would only be fair and accurate to include the OT.

If you have a query or problem with this, kindly let me know. Thanks in advance.
It's been three days - how's that list coming?

You offered the Hypocisies of Jesus, so I will be happy to just have those from the Gospels - if that will cut down on your work load (although I can't say that a good dose of the OT will hurt you any). Yes, I do believe the "jesus being god nonsense" so if you want to include some of that in your list, feel free.

Getting there.. Let's say... Hmm Friday after I've taken my dog to the vets I'll make a long post. K.

Getting there.. Let's say... Hmm Friday after I've taken my dog to the vets I'll make a long post. K.
I'm sorry to keep bugging you about this but I just can't wait. It's Saturday and I'm so looking forward to the list of Jesus' Hypocrisies you promised!

I am Charlotte Schnook. I authored that piece years ago, and it belonged to a massive collection in which I went over hundreds of more verses then shown here. After time, things seem to get mangled across the net, but it's nice to know that people still use my stuff from time to time.

Anyhow, when running a search on my name I noticed this site, and thought since it posted here, I might as well refute a little of what was said.

We are not under the power of the law which was to bring death to sinners because we now live by the Spirit that was sent to us. By accepting this free gift we fulfill the law and in our inner beings we delight in the law because it makes us like Him.

Yes you are under the power of the law. The Bible contradicts itself on almost every concievable event, the law included. There are so many Christians running around talking about how Jesus supposedly lifted them from the law. But you can make a case even more air tight for the opposite. Let's take a quick look at the history of Judaism: Ancient religion based on the notion that blood sacrifice is required for purification. Nation conquered and exiled. Nation wonders how religion can still be followed without a temple in which to sacrifice. Faith now under reinterpretation. Voila, along comes the perfect blood sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Now what's the purpose of sacrifice? It doesn't make you sinless, it purifies you of your sin. Sacrifice doesn't end the law, it forgives for transgression of the law. That is why Christ said "not one iota of the law shall fail" that is why he said that the law was given onto Moses and should be kept, that is why he still quotes many of the ancient commandments and even judges his contemporaries based on those laws. I had a sermon on my site in fact called "Can We Ignore The OT?", too bad it's not here, because I don't feel like rewriting it. LOL

Anyways, the bottom line is: the idea that Christians have escaped the law is based on interpreting random verses so that they may escape the ancient and immoral rituals. Mean while, they completely ignore the passages that tell them the law is eternal.

So now that your motives have been exposed since it is not truth that you seek, can you tell me why you do not do even the simplest one of God's laws which is to love thy neigbour as thyself, given that I am a neighbour?

That's the point my friend. If the goal is love of fellow man, then why follow a book which tells you to kill your fellow man for the most absurd of reasons? When I read the entire Bible, and seen for myself the horrifying commands in it, the phrase: "Do not throw pearls before swine" came to mind. The Bible is a swine, love is the pearl. We should not be idling in two thousand year old dogma at the sake of human progress and compassion. When you refuse to do that, you expose yourself not as a lover, but as an immoral fiend seeking his own reward at the expense of others, nothing more. Maybe it is your motives that "have been exposed" when you continue to be a Christian in light of it's commanded atrocities.

Maybe Charlotte Schnook. The essay is almost meaningless - bones only vultures could feed on. It for arguments like these that Jesus said "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

As I said earlier, the essay belonged to a collection. I beg to differ though, it does raises the point that Christians refuse to follow OT commands in direct violation of the many passages which say we should. So, is that not hypocrisy?

It's clear that the author would be just as surprised at any other law in the Bible. If she only payed more attention to the introduction to Lev. 19: "Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy." That is the fountain from which all laws spring, and the thirstier you become, the more you will hate each drop that fails to quench your thirst.

Nothing about the Bible manages to surprise me. I am most familiar with your leviticus quote, and it only serves to back up the classical atheistic question: "is something good (holy) because it is of God?" Well, then, if I am to believe Lev. 19 then I guess we better go back to stoning our women for not being virgins or take on slaves, because that is only holy, right? Please! I don't need to "pay more attention" buddy, you do!

Jesus is not a hypocrite. True Christians follow Jesus, (the word of god) so they are not hypocrites.

Another mouthy Jesus Jockey who has yet to read the Bible. Are you even aware that Jesus broke his own laws? Or lied? Yep, all in the bible, try reading it.

Yes, anyone who calls another a fool is in "danger of hell fire" What's the problem here? How is this hypocrisy? This is like you trying to tell an engineer how to build a bridge. You haven't a clue yet you are trying to instruct an expert. If I called you a fool, since I don't have a clue about you, I would be wrong... Jesus, on the other hand, is an expert. Jesus knows your heart and he can make an accurate assesment. Jesus is not being a hypocrite.

Time for a logic problem since someone doesn't seem to get it:
-Hypocrisy is not do as you preach
-Jesus preached that anyone who says fool will go to hell
-Jesus called someone a fool
= Jesus by his own action is worthy of hell fire, and is a hypocrite because he fails to do what he preaches.

I hate that Christian idea that God is above the law because he created the law. It's a cop out for when something immoral is exposed. Cops, Judges, politicians, etc. They create law, should we give them a get out of jail free card? It's different because they are not God? Not in my book, I believe in morality, consistency and actually holding beings responsible for their actions, God doesn't escape this judgment. Especially when he said that we have knowledge equal to his concerning what is right and what is wrong.

Ahhh... Well, I'm done ranting, perhaps I'll check back in another time.

OOPS! Forgot to comment on somenthing

An atheist may say "I dont believe in God. I am the greatest thing there is."

I don't know what atheist told ya this, but this atheist doesn't say that. I don't believe in a God, but I do not believe I am the greatest thing there is. I have a reverance for all forms of life. I don't believe in a religion which tells me I am in charge of the planet, it's shepherd, to use it for my own reward. To kill animals for a sacrifice, to kill other humans for not believing as I do. I think you have things backwards my friend. You make religionists seem so meek while the atheist is arrogant, when your scriptures reveal what is really going on.

Atheist's think they are the greatest whilst the believer's are meak. It is not suprising therefore that atheists enjoy persecuting the believers. But I tell you now, it is cowardice and this makes the meak so very much stronger than you in reality.

We enjoy persecuting non believers? Really? Because I don't remember the great Atheist Inquisition, or the Atheist conquistidors. I certainly don't recall any holy wars we waged either. You don't call yourself "Christian Soldiers" for nothing. Stop playing the poor martyred Jesus, you belong to the bloodiest cult that has ever existed in human history.

Carry on. You make me stronger.

And to you as well. The more Christians try to play with legislation, the more they play the martyr role, the more they proselytize and impede on my rights, the more I stand up and stick in their face what immoral hypocrites they are. Sadly, the atheist crusade doesn't seem to compell you to read your Bible though. Who am I kidding? Jesus himself said if you don't know his word then you don't know him, but that didn't make you actually read it either.

HI Critiquing_Christ.....i am very much enjoying what you are saying, and will most definately checkout what you have written before. You have strong insight

I am in no way a bible freak, but obviusly am familiar with it being brought up in the West. so Jesus--the mythical character of 'Jesus'...what do LIKe about him

i like the bit where he chills out with the 'riff raff', the real people. i would imagine him having a laugh, and NOT preaching at them
i liked his seeing through hypocrisy, but as you say he doesn't practice what he preached

but you know. i would ask you, and any others. so this would be asking both sides--as it were. WHERE is THe solid evidence Jesus even existed?
From my understanding no such evidence exists. JM.Allegro in his book The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth reckons that therer did exist a 'Teacher of Rightousness' who had been crucified. But this happened way before the so-called crucifiction of a 'Jesus of Nazarerth

i ask this, cause if there is ONE MAIN thing Christians do do is....make out that THEIR myth is real and historical. this is what singles it out--for them--from the pagan god~man myths they had appropriated the tale of Jesus FROM!
They truly depend on this belief, and their whole ethos of linear historical progress (reflected also in their so-called 'secular' world) is based on the written about event of their, NOW, "'God'~man" having been given over by the Jews, tortured, and crucified, by the Romans, and then undergoing 'Resurrection', in 'PHYSICAL' form.

All this they hang onto for grim life!

Hi Charlotte, excellent piece, and excellent replies also, are you going to stay on the forum.
it would be very interesting, to read some more of you thoughts, in the future.
so welcome and heres hoping.

incidentlly, it's has always amased me, how religious people never seem to know there own religious books, and how they seem to think atheist are the evil, go figure.

incidentlly, it's has always amased me, how religious people never seem to know there own religious books, and how they seem to think atheist are the evil, go figure.

well, i know my "religious books", and i dont think that you saying that is any different than the people you are condemning. i dont think you are "the evil".

broad generalizations are the weapons of the foolish. your previous posts have not been this inflammatory. why resort to that?

:eek:

duendy:so Jesus--the mythical character of 'Jesus'...what do LIKe about him


That is a great question duendy, and one that people rarely ask me because they are intent on batteling me instead. Ya know, I'm a funny character, though I am a rabid atheist, I am also a situation ethicist in many ways. For those of you who do not know what situation ethics is, let me explain: It is an ethical school modeled after the revolutionary Jesus, it states that in order to be ethical, you must always attempt to do the loving thing. (I also blend with utilitarianism: the greatest good, for the greatest amount of people.)

Why? I was a Christian for many years before I became an atheist. Not many people know that about me. My family was related to the papacy and I was heavily involved with the Catholic doctrine of charity and good works. I was in love with the Jesus who said "blessed art the peacemakers" and "love is the sum of the law". I was in love with the Jesus who ministered to the Samaritan woman, who turned over the tables and screamed at the hypocrital money changers. I loved the Jesus who preached that our duty is to care for the marginalized, to live as a martyr, I loved the Jesus who was a revolutionary, who was the embodiment of compassion and duty. Amos, who continually cried for the marginalized and questioned God for his lack of action, was my earthly hero. Hell, I still love that Jesus and adore Amos!

But when growing up close to the papacy, I heard the intrigues, I seen the hording of wealth, the plotting against the masses, all these hypocritical and horrid things that made me wonder how they could justify their actions. So I took my theological education into my own hands and decided it was time for me to read the scriptures. Needless to say, I was horrified! The things they with held from my fellow Christians was shaking my faith. I made a plea to God. Show me evidence of his existence, and I would do my best to keep exploring. I ended up going to Carroll College for my B.A in religious studies, and the more I educated myself, the more atheistic I became. I was so desperate I started changing my deal with God: I'll keep studying and you just fill me with faith, I want to believe so bad that I'll even go without the evidence! (The logical part of my mind hated me for that one. LOL) I became ordained, went on for my M.div, and am currently an atheist pondering my PHD in comparative religions.

But something happened in that time, religion stopped being what is truth or false for me. It became something more. I understand it now as not salvation, but hope. It's that primal cry all human beings scream out to the cosmos. Our fears, our fragilities, our longing for love, to escape the human condition, for redemption. It's our plea for significance in the face of overwhelming infinity and omnipotent matter that crushes us everyday. Religion is man's hope. And I love it, for that reason.

Becoming an atheist only underscored my desire for charity, morality and good works. I see life as intirely fragile, unique, as something which demands protection and reverence. And what did religion bring me? It allowed me comfort in faith when I faced sorrows. Fine, but look at how it allows others rampant apathy, errant righteousness against our brothers, and it confines us to ancient immorality that represses our compassion and revolution. Hence, how can religion be good when it brings so much sorrow? No wonder why Christianity did not reflect the good parts of Jesus' ministry rampantly, because religion main function is an exercise in self adoration and comfort.

I made the final bet with "God" when I rid myself of the last of my faith. "I don't believe you exist, I'm insane for merely uttering this outloud, but here it is my non-existent God, my cosmos: I'm gonna embody my truth, because it has shown itself to be right, and commands me on it's own merit. I believe in love and compassion so thouroughly, that I shall not limit it with a religion, that I shall not limit it with a faith. Because you are not here, I shall use the meager god in me to eleviate what you refuse to do. And if, if by some chance I am wrong, then damn me to hell, because I'd rather burn then hurt another living soul in the name of false love. Besides, if you do exist, then loving your creations would only be the highest form of worship, so, the ball is in your court. I know how moral I am, let's see how moral you are."

That was the last I spoke to God. Going for my m.div was a smack in the face concerning all the lack of physical evidence for a deity. I long ago shrugged him morally, but my education allowed me to shrug him logically and scientifically as well. I feel like Jesus, with as weird as that sounds. For years I tried to live devoutly, tried to love, overlook the immorality. And in the end when I understood what love really was, I felt forsaken by God. I wanted to forgive my brothers, but was also enraged at their hypocrisy. One day I am preaching the joys of forgiveness, and the next I'm shouting "ye white sepulchers!" LOL That's "what I like about Jesus". That he was human, that he was contradictory, that he loved, that he questioned, that he felt duty, he felt scared, he was angry, but he fought. He fought for what he felt was truth, and took everyone's shit in the scheme of it all. Of course there are many things I detest about Jesus as well, and as an atheist I simply take what has worth, and move on in his hope of redemption. I think that is what being a Christian should mean.

What a fucking sermon, hey? Sorry I get off track and start to rant, it has been ages since I spoke publically from the hip about religion. As you progress with education you are expected to stick with intellectual topics such as the eschatological urgency of the markan narrative, etc. It's as if there is some code in theology that if you speak forthright in brutal layman's terms you aren't truly fit for the field. I'm enjoying this immensely. To just be able to lay my thoughts out there without having to dress them up. This repression via the field is why there aren't many books circulating concerning the fallacies of religion that those outside of the field desire to read. That always troubled me. Because this country could use an honest theological education something fierce.

I want to take the time to thank you guys for allowing me to pop in here and just speak from the hip. And since my post is rather long I guess I'll have to make another to address the rest of the comments. Sorry about all this reading folks. My calling card is my long windedness, it's something you'll have to get used to when dealing with me. LOL

CRITIQUING says, “The Bible contradicts itself on almost every concievable event, the law included.”

This is inflammatory.
The bible does not comment twice on “every conceivable event”.
If you mean to say the bible specifically opposes itself on every event it describes more than once, I would say it does not.
If you mean to say that the bible sometimes seems to contradict itself, I would agree.
...

CRITIQUING says, “Maybe it is your motives that "have been exposed" when you continue to be a Christian in light of it's commanded atrocities.”

Please inform me of the “commanded atrocities” of Christianity, as taught by the bible and not by some organized religions' additions. I seem to have missed them in my studies.
Are you just implying that all christians are commanded to follow all of the old testament laws?
If you are implying something else, I am interested to see what the "commanded atrocities" are.

...
CRITIQUING says, “Maybe Time for a logic problem since someone doesn't seem to get it:
-Hypocrisy is not do as you preach
-Jesus preached that anyone who says fool will go to hell
-Jesus called someone a fool
= Jesus by his own action is worthy of hell fire, and is a hypocrite because he fails to do what he preaches.”

Possibly your understanding of the meaning of the words in the passages you refer to is correct. If so, Jesus may simply be saying that any person who calls another person “fool”, is aligning themsleves with Hell by raising their own understanding to the level of the ultimate judge, which could be described as satan’s path. Jesus would have seen himself as having no ability to align himself with hell, as he believed (apparently) that his understanding was already in alignment with the ultimate judge, as evidenced by his reference to his “relationship” with God.

Also, if anyone calls themselves a “christian soldier” they have issues.

sorry about that one sentence-

The bible does not comment twice on “almost every conceivable event”.
I quoted you without the "almost".
Still inflammatory.

[QUOTE=audible
7) Here is perhaps the mother of verses ignored: “Judge not, that ye be not judged”-Matthew 7:1 and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven”-Luke 6:37. I have yet to meet a Christian who has not “judged” my atheism. [/QUOTE]

Audible,
your post brings up many good questions, some which I have already resolved for myself, some which I have not.
I think you are right in calling this "perhaps the mother of verses ignored". I may have an opinion on your atheism, or my theism, but to say that I have the final word is to make myself the "judge". I don't judge your atheism.

duendy: i like the bit where he chills out with the 'riff raff', the real people. i would imagine him having a laugh, and NOT preaching at them
i liked his seeing through hypocrisy, but as you say he doesn't practice what he preached

You hit Jesus on the head here. You never seen him hanging with kings or high officials. He said the temple is the body. He didn't go to church, he taught on mountain tops, hung with "prostitutes", tax collectors. He hung with a samaritan, and fisherman. Jesus went to the temple and actually beat up the money changers inside! Jesus was not the pomp and ritual that Christians have made him out to be. Thanks to interpolation, Peter is now the rock of the church, and Christians are what Jesus would be embarssed of (at least, you can use the scriptures to make that case, along with others.)

but you know. i would ask you, and any others. so this would be asking both sides--as it were. WHERE is THe solid evidence Jesus even existed? From my understanding no such evidence exists. JM.Allegro in his book The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth reckons that therer did exist a 'Teacher of Rightousness' who had been crucified. But this happened way before the so-called crucifiction of a 'Jesus of Nazarerth

Your understanding is correct, there is absolutely NO empirical evidence what so ever that a Jesus of Nazareth as stated in the Bible ever existed. In fact, there is overwhelming points of evidence to the contrary. How many Christians know there was no city of Nazareth until at least 400 years after Jesus' death? How many Christians know that Roman laws would not have allowed him to be crucified in the manner or at the time he was? How many Christians know that Josephus is a proven late interpolation? How many Christians know that we have early gnostic Christians such as Marcion which wrote that Jesus was a mythic character and was being "carnalized" for the sake of laying claim to the roman throne? They don't! And they never can know, because the heirarchy that is enabled by Christian ignorance would crumble. Christians have no idea how they are being used by the system; and sadly, they don't care, their in it for the reward, just as the church is in it for the profits.

And JM.Allegro is parially right. Like I said earlier, the Jewish religion was experiancing a crisis of faith. They had to reinterpret the OT in order to continue on with their religions. So there were tons of would be lambs running around. Let's not forget what was going on politically either. This is something every Christian should really pay attention to, because it's implications expose how Christianity really evolved. The Roman empire was able to survive by supressing the identity of the newly conquered. They made it law that all people had to follow the main pantheon of deities of the Grecco-Romans. (That's where the term atheist comes from, "away from theos". Anyone who didn't follow the Greek pantheon was an atheist, including Christians.) The Jews revolted in 76 ad (which is why the Markan gospel is dated to that time) and they simply would not let up! The Romans crushed their temple, persecuted them ,etc. But the Jews kept fighting, and the Romans actually gave in! They made a law called "Lawful Religion". In which any people that could prove they had an ancestral religion prior to being conquered could continue to practice it. Well guess who had evidence they had a preexisting religion? The Jews, they had scripture! Now there was a hope for all those esoteric schools. If they could graft their religions onto Judaism they could fall under the Lawful religion clause. So then we see a host of ancient myths being grafted onto Judaism. Makes sense now how Christianity is so reminiscient of Mithraism? Makes sense how we have the trinity? Makes sense how Christianity is a hybrid of other religions? Makes sense how the major religions that had contact with the Roman empire all grafted onto Judaism? Why I believe it does! :D

i ask this, cause if there is ONE MAIN thing Christians do do is....make out that THEIR myth is real and historical. this is what singles it out--for them--from the pagan god~man myths they had appropriated the tale of Jesus FROM!

I think most modern missionary religions do this.


They truly depend on this belief, and their whole ethos of linear historical progress (reflected also in their so-called 'secular' world) is based on the written about event of their, NOW, "'God'~man" having been given over by the Jews, tortured, and crucified, by the Romans, and then undergoing 'Resurrection', in 'PHYSICAL' form.

Linear? You must be from the east. Not many Western people would understand their religion to be linear unless they either had a theological education, or were not originally from a western religion. Do you mind me asking where you are from? By the way, the Christians wrote that part about blaming the death of Jesus onto the Jews to escape Roman persecution. However, it is quite clear that the Romans could have pardoned him if they wished. Thanks to that stupid passage, Christians have been able to use it as justification for waging wars on the Jews. Another fact I wish Christians knew: Hitler was a Catholic. He still hasn't been excommunicated! Goes to show how the church will play the populace like a violin when it suits to line their pockets. Christians in my country better open their eyes and realize we are dangerously close to repeating history with the way the republicans use them. (Owww! I'm gonna piss off people with that one, that's for sure LMAO)

mis-t-highs: Hi Charlotte, excellent piece, and excellent replies also, are you going to stay on the forum. it would be very interesting, to read some more of you thoughts, in the future. so welcome and heres hoping.

Thank you my dear! You made me smile quite wide ya know. But be careful what ya wish for LOL, I believe I may end up talking your head off if you let me. I'm sure I will pop in on this thread. The rest of the forum, I'm not too sure of. I like politics and philosophy, but it seems boards like this are filled with people who like to rant and don't have the facts to back their opinions up. I used to hang on a philosophy forum where people arrogantly assumed that because they enjoyed intellectual topics it some how made them the alpha and omega of knowledge. The last time I spoke publically about religion I actually had some nimrod tell me I had to write him a friggin dissertation to prove the gnostics had influenced Christianity. Needless to say the time that would take would leave me at the pc for years. All the evidence is out there, and I'm not about to do someones homework for them. If the fact that the John gospel is officially called the "Gnostic Johannine Gospel" doesn't make ya blink, then the idiot was beyond logic as far as I'm concerned. I don't take well to people who debate to be a thorn. I may be abrasive and non apologetic, but I do believe that if I enter a debate it is because I have something worthwhile to part and be open to learning as well. So tell me, are the people arogant and not true debators here? Are they educated (doesn't have to be in a class room, sometimes the best education you can get is from the public library)? Are they antagonistic?

incidentlly, it's has always amased me, how religious people never seem to know there own religious books, and how they seem to think atheist are the evil, go figure.

Amen!

The Devil Inside: well, i know my "religious books", and i dont think that you saying that is any different than the people you are condemning. i dont think you are "the evil". broad generalizations are the weapons of the foolish. your previous posts have not been this inflammatory. why resort to that?

I don't think she is generalizing. It's the truth. When completing my BA I took the capstone key seminar of religious stastics. In that class I learned that only 4, thats right FOUR, percent of Christians have read the entire bible. While 75% of atheists have. That blew my mind! And it also made incredible sense as well. Christianity is quite frankly: laziness. It's a way to attain salvation without purification, without education, without action, all one needs is faith. And faith is a comfort all humans desire. Yet the atheist sacrifices it for what he knows to be truth. (Believe me Christians, it is a sacrifice. There are still days that I weep for God's non existence.) And according to that statistic he got his truth from actually educating himself. It's by no pure coincidence the majority of intellectuals in the world are not from the Christian persuasion. The last true intellectual Christian was Isaac Newton!

And the idea that atheists are deemed evil certainly isn't a generalization. I made a sermon once on my old website that talked about the shit my brethren goes through daily, and how it is not even aknowledged by others because it is so common place. Perfect example: George Bush senior said that atheists should't even be considered American citizens. That sounds like judging to me. Can you imagine what would happen if a president said that about Christians? But of course, no one blinks a friggin eye when it's said about my brethren. Christians cry about how 2,300 of them were persecuted by Romans 2,000 years ago. Do they have a tear, or even acknowledge the thousands of atheists Christian Hitler tossed in the ovens? Do they cry over the millions of us who were mudered during the dark ages? Why, they say it's a myth! Their scripture actually commands them to KILL US! So a broad generalization it is not. You don't see any atheist manifesto which tells me Darwin commanded I stone to death any Christian I find. If you truly "know your religious books" then try to justify to me how deuteronomy is compassionate to my ilk. I don't think ya can. And that's because you probably haven't read your scriptures as thouroughly as you claim.

Now you all may freely call me jerk for posting so much, but I just wanted to say to CRITIQUING that I would not accuse you of being a "judge" because of your use of the word "meager" and because you say there is a "chance" you could be wrong.
It is people who don't know this that are over-estimating themselves.
I suppose by the same methods, there is a chance I am under-estimating myself and others.

Americans simply are living in fantasy land - 80% of Americans are Christian, so they think that is the normal standard. But 2/3rds of humanity are NOT CHRISTIAN.

Americans don't even believe you when you tell them that sometimes (you can easily look it up in any Almanac or on the web)! And hell, that "80% of Americans" is being being charitable: lumping everybody from Mormons, to Jehovah's Witnesses, to Amish, to Catholics, to Baptists and etc together -- most of whom don't consider *each other* ''true'' Christians!

2/3rds of Humanity . . . (at the *least*) - NOT Christian. Believe whatever you want America, but don't push it on the world.

-----------------------------------------------------

"Religions change, beer and wine remain" - Harvey Allen

Oh my, just when I thought I was finished, I post my reply and I see someone is replying while I type.


cole grey: The bible does not comment twice on “almost every conceivable event”.
I quoted you without the "almost".
Still inflammatory.

Inflamatory? Why is the truth inflammatory? The bible contains over 8,000 contradictions, this has been admitted by Theologians, biblical scholars, even the Catholic church! If the truth is inflammatory to you, then I think it's time for you to step back and ask yourself why.

Please inform me of the “commanded atrocities” of Christianity, as taught by the bible and not by some organized religions' additions. I seem to have missed them in my studies.
Are you just implying that all christians are commanded to follow all of the old testament laws?
If you are implying something else, I am interested to see what the "commanded atrocities" are.

Oh God! This is what I'm talking about when I say people expect me to do their homework. The list of atrocities committed upon and commanded by the bible is so massive, I could fill this entire forum with them. Do you honestly want me to post every little thing? I could ya know, but I think people will get awfully sick of my constant posts. Sincerely, you need to go to the Skeptics annointed bible, evilbible.com (I took my site down, but they rescued lots of my old sermons) or some other site which lists the thousands of immoralities the bible contains with exact quotes. You'll find shit like how we should beat our slaves, kill our kids, stone for sabbath breaking, kill people of other religions, and I assure you, a great deal of that is echoed in the new testament as well. As far as the OT still being relevant, I talked about that briefly in an earlier post, go consult it.

Possibly your understanding of the meaning of the words in the passages you refer to is correct. If so, Jesus may simply be saying that any person who calls another person “fool”, is aligning themsleves with Hell by raising their own understanding to the level of the ultimate judge, which could be described as satan’s path. Jesus would have seen himself as having no ability to align himself with hell, as he believed (apparently) that his understanding was already in alignment with the ultimate judge, as evidenced by his reference to his “relationship” with God.

YHWH laid down rules, Jesus said those rules are eternal, and he is the incarnate of YHWH. Then he goes on to break a good deal of those rules he set forth. This my friend is hypocrisy. Because he's God doesn't mean he has the ability to escape my judgment concerning what rules he broke. I don't care how much you try to reinterpret what Jesus did. The bottom line is he broke his own rules, and for that, he contradicted himself and is bound to his punishments by his OWN admission.

I think you are right in calling this "perhaps the mother of verses ignored". I may have an opinion on your atheism, or my theism, but to say that I have the final word is to make myself the "judge". I don't judge your atheism.

That's really nice to read, but you should. According to deuteronomy and leviticus you are supposed to judge her evil, and then stone her to death for not believing in your YHWH. And you can see for yourself the law still stands in all of the gospels. (another contradiction of course, because some verses say the law is not binding, what you choose to believe is basically measured by what ever is most convienant, as christians always seem to do.) Regardless of the OT, you aren't even supposed to engage in talking to a non believer because their evil will be judged as your own, as the NT says. So according to your bible you are faced with dilema: either pray reverently for forgiveness for engaging the atheist, or out right kill us.

I swear, maybe I should put my old site back up someday, because It really is a pain to list every little verse when a christian asks. At least I'd have some link to directly point them too without racking my brain.

Christians, they love to talk about how “loving”, “dutiful” and “compassionate” they are, yet I have yet to meet ONE who does not practice hypocrisy to the highest degree.

Your being too judgmental, I think.


Their willful ignorance of the Bible combined with their two faced idealism to preach it, has made us sick, hasn’t it? For nearly two thousand years Biblicists have been lecturing people on the importance of adhering to the Bible’s teachings on ethics, manners, and morality.

The Bible before the Protestants was not quite the defacto guide your making it out to be.


They quote Jesus and Paul profusely, with a liberal sprinkling of Old Testament moralism. The problem with their approach lies not only in an oft- noted failure to practice what they preach, but an equally pronounced tendency to ignore what the Bible itself, preaches. Christians practice what can only be described as “selective morality”. What they like, they cling to and shove down other’s throats;

Your confusing hypocrisy with different notions of what the Bible teaches. Someone can believe homosexual unions are alright and still believe in the Bible. They are not hypocritical but mistaken.


what they don’t like, they ignore vehemently. That which is palatable and acceptable is supposedly applicable to all; while that which is obnoxious, inconvenient, or self-denying is only applicable to those addressed 2,000 years ago.

Again, interpretation based upon context is different from hypocrisy.


There is an exception to the rule, however. If spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is in adulterer. Remember that 80% of this country is Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences” not adultery”, which implies that Christians are again practicing selective morality.

For Catholics divorce is impossible unless if the marriage is annulled, which is basically proving the marriage never happended.


How many Christians are working on a second, third or fourth marriage?

That's not hypocrisy, though. All your saying is that Christians commit sins and hide sins. The hiding of sins from the public is not hypocrisy.


On to another beef: The Christian attempts to put prayer into schools run directly counter to biblical teachings. Jesus said prayer should be a private affair devoid of public display:

He also said to let your light filll the room. I wouldn't interpret the following verse as physical command but a spiritual one. We should be able to pray anywhere, but we should also not pray merely to have public praise.


(Matthew 6:5-6 RSV). Biblicists violate this on a regular basis and have no intention of correcting their behavior. They demand that evolution be taken out of the curriculum.

I'm not following. Where's the connection between evolution and praying in secret?


They demand parochial school receive voucher programs so that they may collect public funding.

If Parochial schools are reducing the cost of books, by taking students who'd otherwise go to public schools taxing the public school money, then why not? Why should the parents of these children going to parochial schools pay for the public school and parochial school's books with their tax money?


Christians continuously pray in public, IE: churches, street corners, schools, courts, etc. yet all the while they never stop to think this is in direct violation to the god they pray to.

Again, someone can pray in public but follow what Jesus said. That is, to pray in secret is to to have complete focus on God, not on the world around you. If someone trys to have this focus in the world, while praying in public, then they are able to follow what Jesus said. After all, someone who'd have this focus perfectly wouldn't even notice he or she was praying in public.


I, of course, know why this is voluntarily ignored. Public prayer forces the peers of school children to jump on the band wagon and pray.

No, allowing children time to pray is different from forcing children.



I assume this is generally followed because removing one’s hat isn’t particularly inconvenient. “Any man who prays or prophecies with his head covered dishonors his head…“(1 Corinthians 11:4 RSV). On the other hand, Paul’s tenet that women must keep their heads covered with a veil during prayer is quite inconvenient and, for this reason, has either been rationalized away or ignored, although it is no less binding than any other moral law in the New Testament

I'm not following what you mean by this. Paul's books consist not only of both intructions for the churches at that specific time and place, but also of instruction that was complete and final.


3) A third tenet prohibits men and women from wearing each other’s clothing (“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God”--Deuteronomy 22:5). Funny thing, two female Jehovah Witnesses came over this morning, they coffee clutched with my neighbor Jenny, a fellow Christian and ALL THREE of these women were wearing pant suits!

The issue here is not the clothes, which are just physical artifacts, but the attempt to change the way they were created.


5) Christians are not supposed to take their disputes before non-Christian courts or judges. (“If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?” -- 1 Corinthians 6:1 NIV) How interesting! Considering that state is separate from church all courts are supposedly “ungodly”.

I'm not following you here. The roman courts at the time of Paul were ungodly. The courts now are not as bad as the romans but are still not perfect. Giving adivice that Christians should, when in argument, attempt to resolve their problems outside the court is good advice, I think.


Does this stop Christians from tying up the supreme court with law suits concerning school prayer, abortion, or numerous other absurdities? Hell no it doesn’t, and my taxes are paying the fucking bill for their hypocrisy!

Hypocrisy is the false show of gooodness in order to obtain some type of benefit. Neither attempting to bring the supreme court up to par, the school system, nor your taxes have anything to do with hypocrisy, I think.


7) Here is perhaps the mother of verses ignored: “Judge not, that ye be not judged”-Matthew 7:1 and “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven”-Luke 6:37. I have yet to meet a Christian who has not “judged” my atheism. The whole world is chalk full of judges, juries, voters, employers, teachers, etc. which are all constantly judging others.

Those judges and juries are not judging others, persay, but what others have done. The distinction is that a jury does not decide whether a given person is going to hell or is a bad person, but whether that person has committed a crime.

]
8) Believers are supposed to hate their parents when they follow Jesus (“If any man come to me, and not hate his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yet, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple”-- Luke

Most likely Luke adapated this saying from an aramaic quotation. In aramaic, from what I've read, the same word for hate also means to put aside.


10) Biblicists are not allowed to call anyone “father” (“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven”--Matthew 23:9). Not only is this rule ignored on a DAILY BASIS, but Catholicism (which is supposedly infallible) uses “father” as a specific title.

At this level of scrutinity, you had best say Christians cannot call anyone the aramaic word for father, abba.


12) Lastly, Jesus, who clearly is of greater importance than Paul, said the Old Law was to remain in force until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished (“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished.

And what is the law, you believe?


How many times have you heard some lame ass Christian say “the Old testament doesn’t matter, Jesus was the lamb and abolished it”? Don’t let them get away with this shit for even the bible says that they should still be following the Old Law.

Jesus gave us the commands in the NT. Why do you suggest the Law(Jewish word for teachings) is the OT? Could Jesus mean what he taught was the Law?



Christians more then any other faith consult mystics and self-proclaimed oracles.

Your statistic for this are where?


15) Tattoos are anathema: (“You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you. I am the Lord”--Leviticus 19:28) Despite this teaching I manage to see Mexican Catholics daily with tattoos of the Virgin Mary, Jesus or a set of praying hands on their forearms and shoulder blades.

Some of the OT laws have been fulfilled so-to-speak in the NT. For example, Jesus, when asked about the diatary restrictions, said that what enters a man's stomach does not defile him but what comes out of his mouth. That is not to say that Christians don't keep the old law, but that Christians keep a fulfilled law, where the things that harm and defile us are not food but are sin.

That's really nice to read, but you should. According to deuteronomy and leviticus you are supposed to judge her evil, and then stone her to death for not believing in your YHWH. And you can see for yourself the law still stands in all of the gospels. (another contradiction of course, because some verses say the law is not binding, what you choose to believe is basically measured by what ever is most convienant, as christians always seem to do.)

CRITIQUING,

1 By using what i have perceived from everything I have studied about the bible, and not taking one verse as the be-all-end-all (at which point I would have to throw it up against another be-all-end-all verse from some other place), I try to come to what I consider the "truths" of the bible are.

2 Many of these "truths", I think, are the ones you derive from your interpretations. I believe that the greatest commandments, as Jesus taught them were, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "
Then he supposedly said, " There is no commandment greater than these."
These commandments should be the beginning point for all interpretation of the "law". I assert that this is the "Christian" supreme court.
By the way, none of the ten commandments (which is what I think Jesus was talking about when he said he wasn't here to get rid of the law), oppose his two. Even 'thou shalt have no other Gods', does not require you to try to ensure that nobody else on earth have another God.

3 I see verses in the bible which seem to say "follow the law", and I see others which seem to say "you don't have to follow the law". I then come upon another verse telling me someone should be killed for adultery or whatever and assume that it is not my responsibility to kill them because I see this as contra-indicated by Jesus' second commandment, which I hold as "greater" than this one. If I cannot pass the responibility for killing them on to someone else (like the adulterer's spouse, or the judaic court, or whoever), I will then assume that I am misunderstanding either the translation, the context, or something else, about the adultery thing. Or maybe I will just sit there confused. But I feel pretty safe in making the assumption that, unless Jesus specifically ordered me somehow to do it (at which point he would THEN contradict himself), that "I" am absolutely NOT commanded to kill them.

Hopefully these steps are helpful in explaining why I don't feel the need to "judge" AUDIBLE, as this would be breaking Jesus' "second commandment".

CRITIQUING,
Also, many of the "truths" I come to are not convenient, and when my thoughts, words, and deeds go against them, as often happens, I don't change the "truths" to fit my desires. I often try this tactic, but it usually doesn't work.

i ask this, cause if there is ONE MAIN thing Christians do do is....make out that THEIR myth is real and historical. this is what singles it out--for them--from the pagan god~man myths they had appropriated the tale of Jesus FROM!


I would submit to you that if there is one thing that singles christianity out from most other religions (pure land buddhism being one possible reason I use the word most), it is dependence on a savior to reach God.
I agree that many christians are confused about this, and about your point regarding the "appropriation".

okinrus: Your being too judgmental, I think.

Really? Well then, please indulge me. Tell me what contemporary Christian you know who follows the life of Christ to a T? Tell me what Christian has managed to sell all that they own and give it to the poor for alms. Then continue to spend the rest of their lives caring for the marginalized, until the very end. This is supposed to be Christian duty, Jesus himself said you can not know him unless you give all that you have to the poor. And save me the Mother Theresa bit, because when it was her turn to go she made sure to be hospitalized in France, receiving the best care humanity had to offer, I wonder how much alms that bill could have afforded.

The Bible before the Protestants was not quite the defacto guide your making it out to be.

In my summation Protestants can be even worse than Catholics! At least Catholics understand the importance of good works. The rise of protestantism gave us jungle capitalism, and it is the anti-thesis to Christian politics.

Your confusing hypocrisy with different notions of what the Bible teaches. Someone can believe homosexual unions are alright and still believe in the Bible. They are not hypocritical but mistaken.

I'm not confusing anything. You either call yourself a Christian and attempt to model your life after Christ, and follow what the bible commands, or else you don't. And if you don't while still calling yourself a Christian, then you are not practicing what you claim to believe and preach, that makes a hypocrite.


Again, interpretation based upon context is different from hypocrisy.

And here we go with the old context and interpretation excuses. The bible is very cut and dry. Jesus said outright, as well as the string of prophets for two thousand years, that the duty of believers is to care for the poor. Is it done? No, why? Hypocrisy, pure and simple. There is no interpretation about it. The bible tells us what is expected, you can choose to follow it or not. But when you choose not to, you are also choosing to be called a hypocrite by people who witness your failings as a self professed christian.

There is an exception to the rule, however. If spouse commits adultery, divorce is permissible. On the same token, the Bible also says that anyone who obtains a divorce and marries another is in adulterer. Remember that 80% of this country is Christian yet we have a 50% divorce rate. A majority of divorces are a result of irreconcilable differences” not adultery”, which implies that Christians are again practicing selective morality.

Marriage is as biblical contradictive as many topics. We have an OT system of betrothel. We have versus which state bastards are not allowed in the temple. We have a concubine system, a system which states women are only saved in child bearing, etc. And then you have the NT. Which frowns upon marriage due to the eschatological urgency and neglect of bodily integrity. You have a savior that is in all definition a bastard (hence violating OT law) and he tells us adultery is worthy of death! Marriage in accordance to the Bible is a nightmare of contradiction. So most rely on Catholic tradition, since it has been the only Christian tradition for close to 1,500 years. And yet Catholics continually violate this tradition while seeing fit to proselytize to me. It's a joke, and that's what I'm railing against!

That's not hypocrisy, though. All your saying is that Christians commit sins and hide sins. The hiding of sins from the public is not hypocrisy.

Again, since everyone keeps insisting it's not hypocrisy, I think a definition is in order. "The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness." Alright: Christians profess to believe in and follow a Bible which says adultery is a sin, and yet they committ it. Catholics profess to follow a tradition that they violate. This IS hypocrisy.
The funny thing is, I don't see what the big deal is. It's as if Christians have so bought into the idea of grace for all sins, that they don't even want to be called on the carpet by their own scripture! It reeks of self righteousness, and that's exactly what Jesus warned against.

He also said to let your light filll the room. I wouldn't interpret the following verse as physical command but a spiritual one. We should be able to pray anywhere, but we should also not pray merely to have public praise.

I get your point, that prayer is supposed to be between god and you, not you for to display to the world. But that is the problem with public prayer. It is used to compell others to convert or be complacent. And no, you should not have the right to pray publically anywhere. Especially in a country where there is first ammendment rights.

I'm not following. Where's the connection between evolution and praying in secret?

This has to do with the little known scope's monkey trial, in which evolutionists had to legally sue to get evolution taught in schools. The whole reason why it was not allowed for so long was because the American legislators were worried that if evolution was placed in school, soon prayer would be taken out. Which evidently, it has been. That's the connection. Allowing Creationism and crushing science, ensures ignorant believing children remain ignorant believing adults.

If Parochial schools are reducing the cost of books, by taking students who'd otherwise go to public schools taxing the public school money, then why not? Why should the parents of these children going to parochial schools pay for the public school and parochial school's books with their tax money?

Why should my tax dollars, when I am guaranteed first ammendment rights, go to the funding of Christian education? Why should I allow my tax dollars to go to a system which tosses out science, squelches freedom of speech, and ignores almost 1.5 million years of human history in lieu of brain washing? If Christians want to give a shoddy education to their children, I'm all for it, but I'm sure as hell NOT going to pay for it. Just like I wouldn't DARE ask them to pay for a voucher for me to send my kid to an atheist school. And that's another funny thing, this IS about religious preference, because you don't see parochial schools like Waldorf (pagan) getting voucher funding, but Christian schools do.

No, allowing children time to pray is different from forcing children.

On the contrary, holding a moment of silence compells the other children in school to join or face social ostracization at the hands of their peers and teachers. Didn't you have a freaky Jehovah in your class that got made fun of for refusing to say the pledge? I know my child just last week CRIED because when her public school sang a Praise God song, she didn't want to join in. Her peers mocked her, (one told her during recess she wasn't going with the "angels, but to the ovens") and her music teacher told her she had to join. I have a meeting with the teacher tomorrow in fact, and she's NOT going to be a happy camper when I inform her if she ever does this to my child again I'll get the ACLU on her ass for religious discrimination. Whenever you have a institution of people, which makes an allotment for prayer, the highest population of religionists will socially ostracize the non particpants. This is true of not only Christians in America, but Muslims in Iraq, and a host of other places. It is the secular government's duty to ensure we give no preference, hence, it needs to stay clear of such things as public prayer. And in turn, give church groups tax free status because they must be self sufficient. (Unfortunately, religionists are not satisfied with this, they continually impede upon secular society thinking it is their divine right. What they don't realize is that it is people like me, the atheist, who is protecting them from a future where they are not some day victim of the insanity they cause by majority rule idealism.)

I'm not following what you mean by this. Paul's books consist not only of both intructions for the churches at that specific time and place, but also of instruction that was complete and final.

The point is, Christians don't follow the whole of these instructions because it impedes on their convienance. (They pay no mind however to how their hypocrisy impedes on people not of their ilk.)


The issue here is not the clothes, which are just physical artifacts, but the attempt to change the way they were created.

How do you know? How did you arrive to that interpretation? The law is pretty cut and dry, it doesn't say anything along of the lines of it alluding to changing the way one is created.

I'm not following you here. The roman courts at the time of Paul were ungodly. The courts now are not as bad as the romans but are still not perfect. Giving adivice that Christians should, when in argument, attempt to resolve their problems outside the court is good advice, I think.

It is good advice! And they should follow it through. Like for instance, they should try to keep their christian beliefs out of my secular courts by attempting to legislate their bizarre dogma which impedes on my rights.

Hypocrisy is the false show of gooodness in order to obtain some type of benefit. Neither attempting to bring the supreme court up to par, the school system, nor your taxes have anything to do with hypocrisy, I think.

I got the definition for hypocrisy and posted it above. Anyhow, yes there is hypocrisy in Christians attempting to impose their beliefs on my rights. Take for instance abortion. No where in the bible does it say abortion is wrong, in fact, god demands the killing and also murders countless pregnant women and infants. The majority of Christian tradition was pro-abortion, and even Romans says that any law instituted is appointed by God himself; Christians STILL attempt to insert their interpretation into my legislation. This is a violation of their command to keep from secular courts, this is a violation of scripture, of romans, of a host of things. And yet the still proclaim they are acting on behalf of god, that's hypocrisy.

Those judges and juries are not judging others, persay, but what others have done. The distinction is that a jury does not decide whether a given person is going to hell or is a bad person, but whether that person has committed a crime.

That verse doesn't say anything about hell. In fact, it is talking only about the act of judging in itself. Why would it talk about hell when humanity does not have the ability to damn a fellow human to hell? That doesn't make sense. Judging is judging, and Christians shouldn't part take in it, yet they do continually.

Most likely Luke adapated this saying from an aramaic quotation. In aramaic,